I've seen a few people suggest that they'd rather have a PvP flag system in place for this game; one where the player can choose when and if he/she wishes to participate in PvP. Such a system simply won't work in Darkfall, and I'm not saying that as someone who wants to defend the right of the rampant PK crowd. In a more linear/quest based MMO, this system can work well, but adding players that are immune to PvP would put a serious flaw in the most innovative of Darkfall's gameplay features.

The "high end" content in Darkfall revolves around guilds claiming resource nodes and controlling the flow of resources, much like in a RTS game. The control of resources is designed to be the motivating feature in guild vs guild conflicts, which in turn drives all of the political and economic engines in the game. The introduction of a community of players that could freely enter any location and harvest resources without fear of reprisal from these guilds would undermine the economic and thus the political power of the great guilds and detract from the purpose of their conflicts.

If a non PvP character could harvest resources without fear of a controlling guild/nation, then he can offer prices on items made from said resources at a much lower rate. After all, he doesn't have to pay for the resources necessary to defend himself nor the resources necessary to defend the resource node he is using. Such players would flood the market with goods that could otherwise be controlled for military or political reasons. Guilds would cease to be powerful institutions that fight to control a portion of the game world, and would instead become shallow social organizations with no real influence or ability to change the game world.

As I said before, I don't defend the rights of PK players to slaughter anyone at a whim. Those who choose such a lifestyle should be at the mercy of their race and of the guilds that control the region they are in. I do fully support the rights of a guild to defend its resources and its land as it sees fit. Only with such an open system can this game hope to introduce the dynamic world that it has promised.

While your points are well taken, and there is no good reason to eliminate FFA PVP, there are ways of dealing with all the issues you raise, and still have optional PVP.

The simplest one that comes to mind is that you shouldn't be able to harvest or transport resources unless you are flagged.

FFA PVP will scare away alot of people. Reason why is cause of the pk'ing ganknuts. What is the point of playing when your little lowbie get ganked and then corpsecamped by some highbie loser? Besides, whats the problem with the resource gathering? Just disable it if not flagged. Making problems that aint there..pfftt.

Anyway, I hope DF deliver what they promise. Will make even WAR's pvp look like a joke, which I read gotten lots of praise from people. Can be that they are blinded by it cause its new, but we'll see after a while, when the first 'omg dis kewl' wears off.

PVP as flawed in WAR as its in almost every other mmo though. My idea of pvp aint autoattack and pianorolling 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0, rince and repeat untill one is dead. Require absolutely no skill to do that, just a bit of knowledge. What might rescue DF's pvp is that its twitch-based, and actually require some skill pulling off crap from the little I've seen from this game. I'm still a huge sceptic though.

Originally posted by slask777

FFA PVP will scare away alot of people. Reason why is cause of the pk'ing ganknuts. What is the point of playing when your little lowbie get ganked and then corpsecamped by some highbie loser? Besides, whats the problem with the resource gathering? Just disable it if not flagged. Making problems that aint there..pfftt.

Anyway, I hope DF deliver what they promise. Will make even WAR's pvp look like a joke, which I read gotten lots of praise from people. Can be that they are blinded by it cause its new, but we'll see after a while, when the first 'omg dis kewl' wears off.

PVP as flawed in WAR as its in almost every other mmo though. My idea of pvp aint autoattack and pianorolling 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0, rince and repeat untill one is dead. Require absolutely no skill to do that, just a bit of knowledge. What might rescue DF's pvp is that its twitch-based, and actually require some skill pulling off crap from the little I've seen from this game. I'm still a huge sceptic though.

It remains to be seen, but it looks like there's a good chance that the gap between the lowbie and the highbie will be slim enough that the highbie will have to consider his battles carefully...  especially since there's no way of knowing if the "lowbie" your stalking isn't really a "highbie" trying to bait you into taking the allignment hit for the battle by dressing in lowbie gear.

I'm going to do that myself...  max out my skills and then dress in newbie armor.  Wander around newbie PvE zones and wait for someone to try and gank me, then whip out my enchanted gear once they've taken the allignment hit.

FFA PvP is very important in this game..

Why? Retaliation.  Nothing is more rewarding than slaughtering the guy who ganked you two days ago with his buddies..

But FFa also gives you the ability to police the whole world.  I use Darktide as an example.  Back in the day, you could have a complete story lead by the people.  (look up history of darktide).  The first two years on that server of AC.. were amazing.    Sadly, now it's a gankfest, as it was in the begining, but the differenece is now you can avoid people all together (you start in a training area.... only other level 5's are there..  You start out with decent armor, that's no drop..)

its really about freedom.. this thread was on the advanced forums as well.. the point of darkfall is freedom.. sure we dont want griefers everywhere.. but guess what, just like in real life.. you dont have a magic barrier preventing assholes... we will be in the wild west in darkfall.. if there are to many pks in an area.. instead of complaining on the forum.. get off yer ass and make a PK-death squad to police the area..

players create the events in this game.. not some dev script.. thats the beauity of a game with freedom.. random shit can happen

i have explained this before.. but one time back in the day in UO.. i was in Deceit (a popular dungeon on the pacific shard).. i saw a cock made out of chicken feathers, gold and regs on the floor (im not kidding) and was like WTF.. as i stared at it 3 PK's came out and ganked me.. screaming COCK! COCK!... i laughed like crazy..

this type of thing could never happen in any game except UO.. because of the freedom..

I mean there are so many more examples.. random gates right outside town to the best IDOC's with mill's of loot and other stuff... random shit happened everyday a dev could never create.. it was beautiful..

in WoW or whatever game.. you know what will happen when you log in.. u might quest/raid/craft.. whatever.. but in a free game.. like oldschool UO and DF... shit that you never expect happens everyday.. this is what we want... freedom
 

like the poster above said its all about the freedom in game- so many UO players have the craziest stories that few MMO's (from what i hear eve is one of them) could ever hope to reproduce because of its insane amount of freedom. FFA PVP is so clutch because it gives the gamers the power to shape the world not some crazy ruleset of limitations.

I played one of the very few MMOs last year which was still FFA PvP. There is nothing like it, the experience, the fear, the adrenaline rush, the massive ffa battles, or 3 or even 4 way fights everyone just fighting eachother for different reasons. The politics, the everything!! It's one hell of an experience when a guild and an individual player is allowed to choose his enemy.

I have nothing against people who want a PvE system, but in my opinion Darkfall is NOT that game. The dev team themselves are hardcore pvp fans and some were against the idea of even putting in PvP, but thank god they did.

A game without a little PvE can become dull. Anyway, I have to be honest, this game is a long time comming and putting the option of flagged PvP would be a massive mistake. There just is no design for it and it would just ruin the whole scope of the game.

I ain't a griefer, I just love what comes with FFA PvP; Guild Politics, confusion, the fear and knowledge that you could always be attacked/ambushed. The fact that you can rob someone of his equipment. The fact that you can be the hero killing the griefers. So many different possibilities....thats what I love about FFA....so many possibilities so much freedom to do whatever you want to do.

it's not possible to be corpse-camped in Darkfall -- there are no levels for one, and upon death you rez at your bind-point. you could potentially be stopped from leaving a city because an enemy clan has a city surrounded, but then i would call that "gameplay".

Sadly i think a lot of WOW-bots are scared of FFA because they've never experienced it, all they're used to is NPC quests, levelling, and item and reputation grinds.

Sub-Title: Why FFA PvP will destroy this game

GundamAce makes several good points about why FFA PvP is a good thing and should be implemented.  However he, as with most FFA PvP advocates, completely fails to see the other side of the argument.

FFA PvP is a bad thing simple due to time.  Fact of the matter is that the majority of MMO players are people with lives outside of the game that require regular attention (usually families, but there are other examples).   Regardless of all other factors and arguments for or against FFA PvP, this is the one that really matters to most people. 

FFA PvP setups don't support the needs of a player that has to get up and move away from the computer every now and then, but not long enough to support logging off and on constantly.   FFA PvP doesn't support the needs of a player who wants a quiet relaxing moment of gaming between a hectic schedule in the real world.  FFA PvP does not support the needs of the bulk demographic of the MMORPG player base in the United States (I add that caveat because I can't speak for other countries as I've not done any research into them).

That is the reason why FFA PvP has not been successful, as a full game requirement, since the MMORPG market became a main-stream gaming option.  Darkfall will be no different, and neither will any other game that tries to implement FFA PvP.  I've no doubt that Darkfall has the chance to be a good game, and even survive on its own merit, but it will never compete with other non-FFA PvP games on the market (in terms of player numbers).  And when it comes down to the wire, what makes or breaks a MMO?  Player numbers.

P.S.

You can't use Ultima Online as a comparison point to today's market, because the market during the time of UO was much smaller and focused.  In order for a game to support FFA PvP today and call itself successful the development/publishing house would have to intentionally ignore the majority of the MMO players out there and cater only to the select crowd looking for PvP combat.  Maybe, just maybe, Aventurine is willing to make that sacrifice, but I highly doubt it as they'd be forcibly limiting their gaming options as well as intentionally limiting their profit to a point where the company might not be able to fully support itself (as is the case with the past PvP MMOs that have come to pass).

Originally posted by Nessin

Sub-Title: Why FFA PvP will destroy this game

GundamAce makes several good points about why FFA PvP is a good thing and should be implemented.  However he, as with most FFA PvP advocates, completely fails to see the other side of the argument.

FFA PvP is a bad thing simple due to time.  Fact of the matter is that the majority of MMO players are people with lives outside of the game that require regular attention (usually families, but there are other examples).   Regardless of all other factors and arguments for or against FFA PvP, this is the one that really matters to most people. 

FFA PvP setups don't support the needs of a player that has to get up and move away from the computer every now and then, but not long enough to support logging off and on constantly.   FFA PvP doesn't support the needs of a player who wants a quiet relaxing moment of gaming between a hectic schedule in the real world.  FFA PvP does not support the needs of the bulk demographic of the MMORPG player base in the United States (I add that caveat because I can't speak for other countries as I've not done any research into them).

That is the reason why FFA PvP has not been successful, as a full game requirement, since the MMORPG market became a main-stream gaming option.  Darkfall will be no different, and neither will any other game that tries to implement FFA PvP.  I've no doubt that Darkfall has the chance to be a good game, and even survive on its own merit, but it will never compete with other non-FFA PvP games on the market (in terms of player numbers).  And when it comes down to the wire, what makes or breaks a MMO?  Player numbers.

 

P.S.

You can't use Ultima Online as a comparison point to today's market, because the market during the time of UO was much smaller and focused.  In order for a game to support FFA PvP today and call itself successful the development/publishing house would have to intentionally ignore the majority of the MMO players out there and cater only to the select crowd looking for PvP combat.  Maybe, just maybe, Aventurine is willing to make that sacrifice, but I highly doubt it as they'd be forcibly limiting their gaming options as well as intentionally limiting their profit to a point where the company might not be able to fully support itself (as is the case with the past PvP MMOs that have come to pass).

Actually, Eve Online is FFA PvP and it has a player base of over 300k subscribers.  In truth, I find the mechanics of Darkfall more friendly to the busy gamer (a demographic I fall into) as it has no level system.  I don't play WoW or its clones because I don't have time to do all the grinding necessary to be a viable contender in their high end gameplay.
 

As a gamer who only has a few hours here and there, I prefer to play multiplayer FPS games that let me log on, have some fun, and then log off without having to do months of grinding.  Darkfall is using a player skill driven FPS style system that will let me get by in the world without having to invest huge amounts of time in it before I can do what I consider to be the fun part.

In a game like WoW, I'd agree that FFA PvP wouldn't work very well.  The game is loot grind based and loosing your stuff might mean loosing months and months of work.  In a system that isn't a loot grind (meaning there isn't significant difference between low end and high end equipment), re-equiping to a respectable level takes minutes, not weeks, and getting your "uber" gear back is a matter of playing for hours instead of months.

Granted, this style of game won't appeal to everyone.  It might not even appeal to the majority of people...  but it most certainly has a large enough audience to be sustainable(as all the people I play with regularly would rather play a FFA PvP game like Eve or a FPS like Counter Strike)

I find it more likely that building an MMO to a select market would be successful as there is already way too much competition for a general audience massmarket MMO.

Originally posted by Nessin

FFA PvP is a bad thing simple due to time.  Fact of the matter is that the majority of MMO players are people with lives outside of the game that require regular attention (usually families, but there are other examples).   Regardless of all other factors and arguments for or against FFA PvP, this is the one that really matters to most people. 

FFA PvP setups don't support the needs of a player that has to get up and move away from the computer every now and then, but not long enough to support logging off and on constantly.   FFA PvP doesn't support the needs of a player who wants a quiet relaxing moment of gaming between a hectic schedule in the real world.  FFA PvP does not support the needs of the bulk demographic of the MMORPG player base in the United States (I add that caveat because I can't speak for other countries as I've not done any research into them).

FFA PVP is not for the bulk of deomgraphic MMORPG Players.  Its for a small percentage.

Casual Players will have an easier time in Darkfall than in other games.   Lets look at WoW and compare a lvl 20 fight along side a lvl 40 fight against 2 level 40s.  As a lvl 20 I will do nothing to help.   Lets look at Darkfall and compare a 30 hour a month player  fight along side of a 90 hour a month player vs 2 90 hour players.  The 30 hour player will be able to help and compete.

That is one of the advantages of skill based over level based. People with less time spent on leveling can still contribute if they focus on a few useful skills and there are not level barriers to prevent them from hitting etc.

Originally posted by GundamAce

Actually, Eve Online is FFA PvP and it has a player base of over 300k subscribers.

Just a point of order.  I play EVE and love the game.  But the above statement isn't quite accurate.  EVE has a FFA PVP area called 0.0 space, and yes, anything goes out there.

But a large portion of the player base spends most of their time in the controlled PVP space, where there are very specific rules of engagment, and PVP is far less prevalent.

Now truthfully, while some players never leave 0.0, and others never leave high sec, however a majority of players live in between both worlds and split their game time between the safety of high secc or the more dangerous low sec and 0.0 areas.

DF has far less safe zones than EVE, and also has a faction penalty system in place to punish the truely lawless. I think the gameplay will be considerably different so comparisons between the two games might not be entirely fair.

Originally posted by Kshnik

 

FFA PVP is not for the bulk of deomgraphic MMORPG Players.  Its for a small percentage.

 

Ah but is it a high enough percentage to support the game? As for the rest of it I don't know why people want to soften this game. If you're committed to going hardcore go all the way. It's been clearly demonstrated half measures just fail.

Well how about only call it quick and dirty pvp?

A good method for the People don't have the time to keep up their chars all time and night lone. Some of us still have work and of course a real life they have to manage.

So DF could be really a good way to give this people the "home" needed and this with a good setup and a very good idea at the background. Now we all have to wait until the beta starts, so some of use get the change to see DF at action!

Originally posted by Nessin

Sub-Title: Why FFA PvP will destroy this game

GundamAce makes several good points about why FFA PvP is a good thing and should be implemented.  However he, as with most FFA PvP advocates, completely fails to see the other side of the argument.

FFA PvP is a bad thing simple due to time.  Fact of the matter is that the majority of MMO players are people with lives outside of the game that require regular attention (usually families, but there are other examples).   Regardless of all other factors and arguments for or against FFA PvP, this is the one that really matters to most people. 

FFA PvP setups don't support the needs of a player that has to get up and move away from the computer every now and then, but not long enough to support logging off and on constantly.   FFA PvP doesn't support the needs of a player who wants a quiet relaxing moment of gaming between a hectic schedule in the real world.  FFA PvP does not support the needs of the bulk demographic of the MMORPG player base in the United States (I add that caveat because I can't speak for other countries as I've not done any research into them).

Maybe I'm crazy but the whole argument about casual gamers being attracted to WoW honestly sounds totally backwards to me. The grind for loot and levels is rediculous. Getting a group together large enough to do a raid is a pain in the ass, even when you have a guild. And when you do have a guild, you usually have make a time commitment to them (if they're any bit well organized). And then running the same raid for xx hours xx times to get those gloves you need. Give me a break.

Character development in darkfall is much more incremental due to the skill system. You'll log into Darkfall and say, shit I only have 15 minutes, let's see if I can raise my skill in archery to 77 from 75 (totally arbitrary, no idea how the skillgain will be) and right away you know your character has gotten a little better, no matter how long you played. In WoW, by the time you get into level 50 and up, 10 minutes of time will get you what, a small fraction of a level. The only achievement you feel is when you gain that level which I guess would be significant but you also realize, shit, have to grind for a couple hours to get that feeling again.

Combined with the fact that in Darkfall, it isn't auto-attack, you actually have to dodge, aim, block, etc. I'm sure casual gamers will get more out of their time since they aren't just right clicking a mob, hitting a few #s, and repeating.

That being said, there will be some 'bad beats' for players that come with the features DF has like dying to the mob and losing your shit or getting straight up ganked. But I can't imagine that being less fun than losing the roll on that epic piece of gear for the 3rd time. Plus, that element of risk adds much more excitement. For people that feel otherwise, they won't like this game. But they're trammies and were probably not gonna fit in from the start.

Kshnik also made a valid point that players who are half as developed as the next, won't be useless.

On the other hand, some of these carebears might find a lot of excitement in the economy of the game that will be almost entirely player driven.

If anything, you could say the biggest challenge to this game being 'successful' is that FFA PvP concept goes against the WoW mentality that has been the norm for several years now.

And how do you even measure success in this type of game? By comparing it to a high-budget game made by an extremely well known developer such as WAR(EA) or WoW(Blizz) whose marketing efforts are greater by several factors?

That's just my take on it. I'm not gonna say I know this game will be the one that breaks through finally. It probably won't. EDIT: But it'll still kick ass.

Originally posted by Nessin

Sub-Title: Why FFA PvP will destroy this game

GundamAce makes several good points about why FFA PvP is a good thing and should be implemented.  However he, as with most FFA PvP advocates, completely fails to see the other side of the argument.

FFA PvP is a bad thing simple due to time.  Fact of the matter is that the majority of MMO players are people with lives outside of the game that require regular attention (usually families, but there are other examples).   Regardless of all other factors and arguments for or against FFA PvP, this is the one that really matters to most people. 

FFA PvP setups don't support the needs of a player that has to get up and move away from the computer every now and then, but not long enough to support logging off and on constantly.   FFA PvP doesn't support the needs of a player who wants a quiet relaxing moment of gaming between a hectic schedule in the real world.  FFA PvP does not support the needs of the bulk demographic of the MMORPG player base in the United States (I add that caveat because I can't speak for other countries as I've not done any research into them).

That is the reason why FFA PvP has not been successful, as a full game requirement, since the MMORPG market became a main-stream gaming option.  Darkfall will be no different, and neither will any other game that tries to implement FFA PvP.  I've no doubt that Darkfall has the chance to be a good game, and even survive on its own merit, but it will never compete with other non-FFA PvP games on the market (in terms of player numbers).  And when it comes down to the wire, what makes or breaks a MMO?  Player numbers.

 

P.S.

You can't use Ultima Online as a comparison point to today's market, because the market during the time of UO was much smaller and focused.  In order for a game to support FFA PvP today and call itself successful the development/publishing house would have to intentionally ignore the majority of the MMO players out there and cater only to the select crowd looking for PvP combat.  Maybe, just maybe, Aventurine is willing to make that sacrifice, but I highly doubt it as they'd be forcibly limiting their gaming options as well as intentionally limiting their profit to a point where the company might not be able to fully support itself (as is the case with the past PvP MMOs that have come to pass).

So just go play any of the other MMOs out there , the fact they are all crap is just something else. Ah and you are here because you like the idea of DFO but just don't have the balls to play it, what a sad state of affairs.
 

I don't think you really understand what DFO claims to have acheived... it claims that it's large expansive world works for all play types. Something most tend to ignore as they play at silos and just don't consider the bigger picture a shame really.