Originally posted by ProfRed

Well I would say there are three lines.  Scenarios, RvR, and PvE makes 3 lines.  Then there are 3 tiers to do these three lines in that you can switch between at any time.  3 x 3 = 9 so I would say at any time there are 9 linear paths that you can jump between which makes the game not so linear.  Most games = 1 linear path, maybe 2.  WAR = 9.  It is actually one of the less linear MMORPGS to come out as far as non sandbox MMO's go.

YOu fail to undertand the concept. Ofc a game with 1 path is more linear than a game with 2 paths but thats like adding another class and claiming its a path of its own. A game having more paths do not add trough it being more sandbox, it just got more content. A sandbox game rather  have possibilitys to creat paths rather than allredy designed which meen war can in no way be called sandbox in any regard no matter if its about rvr or pve or sc. Someone said this game got sandbox pvp, thats not true. With sandbox pvp the pvp got to be created by the players wether its ganking or massive battles aginst a diffrent  PLAYER communit and not faction. SC got allredy set goals with points and reward, can it get more lineare? IN a sandbox game you can bake in a quest into the pvp but the focus has to lay on players having the freedom to make thier own fights. Zone pvp is linare. The more rules a game has to restric pvp/pve makes it more linare but games got to have rules to make them work, like non pvp zones to respawn ect ect. Lineage2 got pvp that leans towards sanbox, the players picks the time, place and rewards for pvp. You can kill anyone you want anywhere except the peace zones which is nessesery for the game to be functional.Wether they fight for a rb or drama, its the players that makes the content., NCsoft only set up the frames.

The linear aspects only apply to PVE. They are virtually non-existent in RvR. 

I must have done at least 100 scenarios during the OB and not one was ever the same. Different team make-ups, different levels of skill, different tactics - the list goes on.

RvR in WAR is one of the most dynamic and diverse aspects I've ever seen in an MMO - I'm truly loving it.

Originally posted by Sweeet

The linear aspects only apply to PVE. They are virtually non-existent in RvR. 

I must have done at least 100 scenarios during the OB and not one was ever the same. Different team make-ups, different levels of skill, different tactics - the list goes on.

RvR in WAR is one of the most dynamic and diverse aspects I've ever seen in an MMO - I'm truly loving it.

 

Your wrong. This has more to do about combat than the aspects of global pvp in the game. Its only in a game with true open world pvp where the freedom is given to the players to fight for any objective or anyone we got a sandbox pvp game. This game got allredy set objectivs, the variables is much less and the reward is allredy at a vendor to be bought. In a open pvp world the reward could be whatever of many objectives you choose to fight for, objectives made by your allies to reach your own set goal. Here the goal is  to advance in rvr rank which will award you new items. The only variable here is sucess or failiur, skill or no skill and rank of items. The open world pvp is  restricted to certin zones here which adds towards the carebear layout that has been flurishing latly. Sc will soon be as grindish as wow BG, there is not much diffrent in the objectives of these two, only thing diffrent is classes and layout of combat in this game.

I like it. Sure it detracts from the world like feel but it makes it so meeting people for combat and PvE is a lot easier. Very simple and enjoyable.

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Originally posted by Hawkaron

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Originally posted by Meridion

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Originally posted by Hawkaron

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Originally posted by Dedthom

What needs to be avoided is stereo typing people into " real MMOers want an sand box while linear play is for casual carebears".
Of course when this happens on this forum it will bring the internet down and we will all be moving into caves cause civilization will collapse.

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Well, people who grew up with old-school MMORPGs will of course like sandbox a lot more while neo-MMORPG players except them to be linear. It's all decided by what we grew up with, and I grew up with the DAoC, SWG type of MMORPG.

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Untrue, there are people who can cherish both, ride-like and sandbox. I can enjoy myself playing a totally linear shooter in multiplayer for months and months. Where you do nothing but respawn, kill, get killed... then again, I enjoy EvE, the tactics, the teamwork, the complexity...
It all depends on what you expect and demand. if you limit yourself to "i only play xy style" it's not the game's fault you don't have fun...
meridion
 
EDIT: Plus, I don't think linearity is the right term here. FEAR is linear, Half-Life is linear, but even the most narrowed-down games, like Guild Wars, offer a whole lot of different things to do. So the level of "guided gameplay" is pretty low compared to regular multiplayer-capable games.

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It's natural to be used to how you originally played a genre. You played and liked it for what it was, and then here comes the new refined MMORPG game that sets a standard for the next generation, but you feel that it somehow differentiates from the MMORPGs you used to play. Sadly, you don't seem to enjoy it, so you demand MMORPGs to be like how they were when you actually liked the genre.
That's how it is like in my case. I feel that something has changed, and unfortunately I don't like it.

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8. to improve by inserting finer distinctions, superior elements, etc.: to refine on one's previous work.
.
Very little of that is being done in this genre.

Hardly any recent games have refined in a factorable way, and every game released since ~2003 or so has been nothing but a concoction of features envisioned in many other games meshed into a new game, with pretty or cute graphics layered on top of it.

WAR's Public Quest system are nothing more than Raids adapted for a PvP crowd. It is no different than having randoms come to a Lineage II castle seige and be allowed the right to participate. Attaching a Quest to it is not refinement, it is incentive because otherwise people wouldn't bother to do it seeing as how there would be no point...

WoW's quest system was not refinement in that quests existed in many other games. The only difference that WoW implemented, was that it really dumbed down the questing experience in MMOs. Remember quests in EQ that had scripts and the NPCs needed you to talk to them about a certain subject during the quest? When it was almost like having a conversation and you pretty much had to read it because the clue phrases were [surrounded by brackets] and you couldn't just click through them like these new games? Yea...

On top of their overly simplistic questing system, they put way too many in the game, and made the rewards so good that they became a way for gamers to Powerlevel and Twink themselves that people do nothing BUT click through them in a hurry as they are trying to maximize their XP/Items recieved per hour...

WoW and other games have refined nothing. They have done nothing but created a culture of gamers that are all about advancing as fast as possible. They have created a whole market of solo gamers that are exactly what this genre ISN'T for, but because they are able to make easy games that cater to those players and disguise them as MMORPGs, they keep churning them out.

That is why the MMORPG genre is full of crappy games, because there is too little refinement actually going on and too much copy/paste and reuse of old code (love the pet bugs that were in WAR, that were carbon copies from DAoC, but maybe that was just a coincidence).

AoC tried to refine melee combat, but failed. Vanguard did refine spell casting. DAoC created RvR and Lineage II refined Mass PvP. But seriously, with the way that game developers are actually thinking these days... There really isn't much refinement to be done because they are not innovating anything at all. WAR has no innovation in it, and neither did WoW.

Originally posted by UbahNecro

 

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Originally posted by Hawkaron

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Originally posted by Meridion

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Originally posted by Hawkaron

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Originally posted by Dedthom

 

What needs to be avoided is stereo typing people into " real MMOers want an sand box while linear play is for casual carebears".
Of course when this happens on this forum it will bring the internet down and we will all be moving into caves cause civilization will collapse.

---

 
Well, people who grew up with old-school MMORPGs will of course like sandbox a lot more while neo-MMORPG players except them to be linear. It's all decided by what we grew up with, and I grew up with the DAoC, SWG type of MMORPG.

---

 

Untrue, there are people who can cherish both, ride-like and sandbox. I can enjoy myself playing a totally linear shooter in multiplayer for months and months. Where you do nothing but respawn, kill, get killed... then again, I enjoy EvE, the tactics, the teamwork, the complexity...
It all depends on what you expect and demand. if you limit yourself to "i only play xy style" it's not the game's fault you don't have fun...
meridion
 
EDIT: Plus, I don't think linearity is the right term here. FEAR is linear, Half-Life is linear, but even the most narrowed-down games, like Guild Wars, offer a whole lot of different things to do. So the level of "guided gameplay" is pretty low compared to regular multiplayer-capable games.

---

 
It's natural to be used to how you originally played a genre. You played and liked it for what it was, and then here comes the new refined MMORPG game that sets a standard for the next generation, but you feel that it somehow differentiates from the MMORPGs you used to play. Sadly, you don't seem to enjoy it, so you demand MMORPGs to be like how they were when you actually liked the genre.
That's how it is like in my case. I feel that something has changed, and unfortunately I don't like it.

---

Call them different, not refined...
.

 

8. to improve by inserting finer distinctions, superior elements, etc.: to refine on one's previous work.
.
Very little of that is being done in this genre.

Hardly any recent games have refined in a factorable way, and every game released since ~2003 or so has been nothing but a concoction of features envisioned in many other games meshed into a new game, with pretty or cute graphics layered on top of it.

WAR's Public Quest system are nothing more than Raids adapted for a PvP crowd. It is no different than having randoms come to a Lineage II castle seige and be allowed the right to participate. Attaching a Quest to it is not refinement, it is incentive because otherwise people wouldn't bother to do it seeing as how there would be no point...

WoW's quest system was not refinement in that quests existed in many other games. The only difference that WoW implemented, was that it really dumbed down the questing experience in MMOs. Remember quests in EQ that had scripts and the NPCs needed you to talk to them about a certain subject during the quest? When it was almost like having a conversation and you pretty much had to read it because the clue phrases were [surrounded by brackets] and you couldn't just click through them like these new games? Yea...

On top of their overly simplistic questing system, they put way too many in the game, and made the rewards so good that they became a way for gamers to Powerlevel and Twink themselves that people do nothing BUT click through them in a hurry as they are trying to maximize their XP/Items recieved per hour...

WoW and other games have refined nothing. They have done nothing but created a culture of gamers that are all about advancing as fast as possible. They have created a whole market of solo gamers that are exactly what this genre ISN'T for, but because they are able to make easy games that cater to those players and disguise them as MMORPGs, they keep churning them out.

That is why the MMORPG genre is full of crappy games, because there is too little refinement actually going on and too much copy/paste and reuse of old code (love the pet bugs that were in WAR, that were carbon copies from DAoC, but maybe that was just a coincidence).

AoC tried to refine melee combat, but failed. Vanguard did refine spell casting. DAoC created RvR and Lineage II refined Mass PvP. But seriously, with the way that game developers are actually thinking these days... There really isn't much refinement to be done because they are not innovating anything at all. WAR has no innovation in it, and neither did WoW.

Damn... yeah, I completely agree with you.

But as long as people buy the games, they will keep pumping out the same stuff over and over again. People must like it, look at WoW. Why could it be so successful? MMORPGs weren't for a wide audience, but WoW managed to gather a total of 11 million subscribers (While half of it consists of chinese farmers, but yeah, still 5mil subs if you don't count them.). Can you actually believe that WoW has over the half of total MMORPG subscribers? I don't understand what people find so shining about that game, and probably never will do.

The classic Elite from 1982, and Grand Theft Auto are probably the most nonlinear games.

They are single player games though.

Mix them up, make it multiplayer, bingo, the best mmorpg ever?

Star Trek online or Stargate worlds could be it

Originally posted by demented669

people think this game is a mmoRPG and it is not at all it is a MMO action game.

it is more like a 3rd person action adventrue game then RPG, am i the only one that can see this >?

why keep trying to say it's a MMORPG is like saying a apple is like a orange cause there both round.

No your not the only one that thinks this.

I agree with your statement that it is not mmorpg, or is at least on the border of not being one.

It has to be described as such by EA to warrent a subscription fee.

If the genre carries on in this direction the next generation of this type of game will cleary not be a mmorpg.

Originally posted by Hawkaron

What do you think about the linear aspect of WAR? Like or dislike?

I like freedom and immersion in a game world, and really enjoy exploring the world.

Linear game design is a hit against freedom as you are sort of herded, volunarily maybe, maybe not, in a set direction.  Also, when a game is linear it is easier to figure out and there is much less exploring, therefore immersion takes a hit.

Personally, I think "linear" is a shortcut in MMO design.  I imagine, taken to extremes, linear PVP games might develop into just one zone, one arena really, saving the playerbase the "discomfort" of having to move around in and discover the world.

Originally posted by rishaki

Originally posted by Sweeet

The linear aspects only apply to PVE. They are virtually non-existent in RvR. 

I must have done at least 100 scenarios during the OB and not one was ever the same. Different team make-ups, different levels of skill, different tactics - the list goes on.

RvR in WAR is one of the most dynamic and diverse aspects I've ever seen in an MMO - I'm truly loving it.

 

 

Your wrong. This has more to do about combat than the aspects of global pvp in the game. Its only in a game with true open world pvp where the freedom is given to the players to fight for any objective or anyone we got a sandbox pvp game. This game got allredy set objectivs, the variables is much less and the reward is allredy at a vendor to be bought. In a open pvp world the reward could be whatever of many objectives you choose to fight for, objectives made by your allies to reach your own set goal. Here the goal is  to advance in rvr rank which will award you new items. The only variable here is sucess or failiur, skill or no skill and rank of items. The open world pvp is  restricted to certin zones here which adds towards the carebear layout that has been flurishing latly. Sc will soon be as grindish as wow BG, there is not much diffrent in the objectives of these two, only thing diffrent is classes and layout of combat in this game.

Are we talking about the same thing here? I'm talking about gameplay. The PVE gameplay is liniar beyond a doubt - RvR on the other hand, never ceases to amaze me.

Yes it may become grindish doing the same objective over and over again - but RvR gameplay liniar? Never. There are many ways to customize your classes gameplay through ability's, tactics, morale...and everybody plays differently.

linear in terms of tiers? yes...

but i find myself going all over the map constantly - from one grouping to the next and then back again just to switch it up...

this game is FAR from a true linear game

you want linear play AoC for a few days  and tell me what you think then lol

Originally posted by boomerangx

linear in terms of tiers? yes...

 

but i find myself going all over the map constantly - from one grouping to the next and then back again just to switch it up...

 

this game is FAR from a true linear game

 

you want linear play AoC for a few days  and tell me what you think then lol

Oh yes, what I hated the most about that game was how you traveled from one zone to the other.

Originally posted by pencilrick

Originally posted by Hawkaron

What do you think about the linear aspect of WAR? Like or dislike?

 

I like freedom and immersion in a game world, and really enjoy exploring the world.

Linear game design is a hit against freedom as you are sort of herded, volunarily maybe, maybe not, in a set direction.  Also, when a game is linear it is easier to figure out and there is much less exploring, therefore immersion takes a hit.

Personally, I think "linear" is a shortcut in MMO design.  I imagine, taken to extremes, linear PVP games might develop into just one zone, one arena really, saving the playerbase the "discomfort" of having to move around in and discover the world.

So WAR is no exception? It's really linear, but do you still enjoy it?

The terms linear and sandbox are nothing more words that geeks have bandwagoned on to in order to throw insults around.

None of the big MMos(meaning the EQs, WoW, CoH etc) force you to do anything, you have the choice to follow the quests, storyline or just simply run around and grind or just socialize, you can just do parts of the stories and be fine or you can never even click on a quest NPC and still advance just like you could in the now famous SWG.

Its amazing how many people tout SWG now like it was the greatest game ever made, but in fact the game had a huge population for about  the first 6 months then it started having serious problems with population. I guess if only a handfull of story/quest NPCs for the entire game along with vast expanses of repetative cut and past  land masses with mobs stuck anywhere the game could randomly generate them(even in the middle of your house) was so great a concept, then why was the game failing? Before the combat change people where complaing like mad about the screwed up combat, then like usual, the complainers got what they  wanted and they complained louder...no, if SWG had of been so great and if half these people that post how great SWG supposedly was actually played the game, there would have been no need Lucas Arts to order  the changes.

But that is kind of not the point, this is...sandbox is nothing but a word the geeks are using to say, if you play one of these fabled sandbox games your some kind of super intelligent, ultra cool MMo god, if you play a linear game(allthough no MMo is truely linear, you have the choice in what you do) then your nothing more then a  rather stupid simplistic neandrathal.

That's actually true. SOE didn't change the game in a state of supersuccess, but changed it in a situation where half the subscriber base was constantly complaining about hologrind, about lack of content and about the "fu**ed up combat system"...

It IS SOE's fault that it got worse after that though.

Meridion

Originally posted by waveslayer

The terms linear and sandbox are nothing more words that geeks have bandwagoned on to in order to throw insults around.

None of the big MMos(meaning the EQs, WoW, CoH etc) force you to do anything, you have the choice to follow the quests, storyline or just simply run around and grind or just socialize, you can just do parts of the stories and be fine or you can never even click on a quest NPC and still advance just like you could in the now famous SWG.

Its amazing how many people tout SWG now like it was the greatest game ever made, but in fact the game had a huge population for about  the first 6 months then it started having serious problems with population. I guess if only a handfull of story/quest NPCs for the entire game along with vast expanses of repetative cut and past  land masses with mobs stuck anywhere the game could randomly generate them(even in the middle of your house) was so great a concept, then why was the game failing? Before the combat change people where complaing like mad about the screwed up combat, then like usual, the complainers got what they  wanted and they complained louder...no, if SWG had of been so great and if half these people that post how great SWG supposedly was actually played the game, there would have been no need Lucas Arts to order  the changes.

But that is kind of not the point, this is...sandbox is nothing but a word the geeks are using to say, if you play one of these fabled sandbox games your some kind of super intelligent, ultra cool MMo god, if you play a linear game(allthough no MMo is truely linear, you have the choice in what you do) then your nothing more then a  rather stupid simplistic neandrathal.

If you think the idea of a sandbox game and a linear game is just "some made up word by geeks" then you clearly have no understanding for what the concepts are and should not be talking about them.

The major MMO's force you to do everything, from the very beginning of the game. You are FORCED to choose a class. From there on out, you are FORCED to gain xp by some means to level that ALWAYS involves killing things or finishing quests that involve killing things. When you level you AUTOMATICALLY get new skills(or you have to buy them, but they become available at the same time to everyone). After you get max level, then you have a few options. PvP, or raid.
 

A sandbox game doesn't FORCE you to choose a class, you can mix and match whatever skills you want. A sandbox game shouldn't have levels as it is just a restriction. A sandbox game doesn't FORCE you to kill stuff, there is nothing wrong with being a crafter or an entertainer. A sandbox game doesn't FORCE you to do anything, but gives you the choice to do everything. 

Few people had a problem with the sandbox part of star wars galaxies, it's basic concepts and mechanics were revolutionary and so far ahead of it's time. People had problems with bugs, and SOE's management of the game. Star Wars Galaxies was my absolute favorite game of all time, and I played up to the NGE. I never made a peep of a complaint anywhere about the game until the NGE was announced.

The game was a success at the time, but the inability for SOE to fix even basic problems and bugs caused the population to start to bleed out. While the population was still VERY respectable, WoW came out and shattered records. SOE's little eyes lit up with $ and they felt the need to go after this playerbase, even if it meant sacrificing the player base they had. While the population was in decline, it was in no way in trouble. If SOE would have spent the time and money fixing the bugs instead of re-writing the game, I have no doubt that SWG would still be the best game out on the market by far. Unfortunately, poor management killed the game, not the sandbox style of it.

As to your last comment, while a bit of an exaggeration, it is true in a sense. Sandbox games usually require you to think and be creative. Linear games hold your hand through everything, allowing a brain dead monkey to play and be successful. The masses don't like to think, therefore, linear games are more successful at the moment than sandbox games. That doens't mean there isn't a large market for sandbox games, but the larger market is for linear games, and even though the linear market is drowning itself in crap, that doesn't stop the developers from shoveling more in the pile.

Originally posted by Hawkaron

What do you think about the linear aspect of WAR? Like or dislike?

They've tried the non-linear approach in the past.  It NEVER works.  It just descends into boring chaos when people just gank other people all day with no purpose.  There needs to be at least a little direction and purpose to make it fun.  Much like society in general, mmos need structure.  Human beings don't function well without it.  Which is why the less structured societies always stay primitive while the more structured socieities advance in science and technology.

Originally posted by Satarious

Originally posted by Hawkaron

What do you think about the linear aspect of WAR? Like or dislike?

 

They've tried the non-linear approach in the past.  It NEVER works.  It just descends into boring chaos when people just gank other people all day with no purpose.  There needs to be at least a little direction and purpose to make it fun.

Really? Eve never worked? SWG Pre-NGE never worked? UO never worked? Really? Last time I checked, Eve, a non linear game that you say "Never works" has more subscribers than all but 1 or 2 of the hundreds of linear pay to play games.

burp...

Originally posted by waveslayer

The terms linear and sandbox are nothing more words that geeks have bandwagoned on to in order to throw insults around.

None of the big MMos(meaning the EQs, WoW, CoH etc) force you to do anything, you have the choice to follow the quests, storyline or just simply run around and grind or just socialize, you can just do parts of the stories and be fine or you can never even click on a quest NPC and still advance just like you could in the now famous SWG.

But that is kind of not the point, this is...sandbox is nothing but a word the geeks are using to say, if you play one of these fabled sandbox games your some kind of super intelligent, ultra cool MMo god, if you play a linear game(allthough no MMo is truely linear, you have the choice in what you do) then your nothing more then a  rather stupid simplistic neandrathal.

How come I can't build cities in WoW/WAR?  How come i can't attack and take control of the ferries?  How come i can't harvest and craft my own items, build a house, open my own store?

So all the MMOs out there don't force me to do anything and I have a choice to..........  to do quests, or not ot do quests, that is the question

Do you even have any idea what sandbox means

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by Satarious

 

 

 

 

Really? Eve never worked? SWG Pre-NGE never worked? UO never worked? Really? Last time I checked, Eve, a non linear game that you say "Never works" has more subscribers than all but 1 or 2 of the hundreds of linear pay to play games.

First of all, Eve is just a minor success.  Its' subscriber base is minuscule compared to WoW.  SWG was a major flop and UO was the first out the gate when there was no competition in the marketplace for MMOs.  So those are pretty weak examples to back up your argument,  as far as I'm concerned.

Second, Eve works (in its small little corner) because there's actual player STRUCTURE.  It's extremely rare for players to just spontaneously form structure to control the flow of the world.  Look what happened to Daoc when they introduced those free-for-all pvp servers with no rules.  People just ganked each other like brain-dead zombies all day.  It basically turned into a first-person-shooter-role-playing-game.  So the servers started out extremely popular and overflowing only to tank after a few weeks.  At the very least, you have to encourage SOME sort of structure.  Eve does that pretty effectively, but I don't know how well that would work with the WoW high fantasy type crowd.  I don't see a structure-free type environment working that well with MMOs in general (especially the fantasy types).  Shadowbane was another structure-free type game and it bombed in the worst way.  But then, their shoddy gameplay had a lot to do with that as well.

I enjoy both linear and sand box. All depends on quality of the game.

Originally posted by Satarious

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by Satarious

 

 

 

 

Really? Eve never worked? SWG Pre-NGE never worked? UO never worked? Really? Last time I checked, Eve, a non linear game that you say "Never works" has more subscribers than all but 1 or 2 of the hundreds of linear pay to play games.

 

First of all, Eve is just a minor success.  Its' subscriber base is minuscule compared to WoW.  SWG was a major flop and UO was the first out the gate when there was no competition in the marketplace for MMOs.  So those are pretty weak examples to back up your argument,  as far as I'm concerned.

Second, Eve works (in its small little corner) because there's actual player STRUCTURE.  It's extremely rare for players to just spontaneously form structure to control the flow of the world.  Look what happened to Daoc when they introduced those free-for-all pvp servers with no rules.  People just ganked each other like brain-dead zombies all day.  It basically turned into a first-person-shooter-role-playing-game.  So the servers started out extremely popular and overflowing only to tank after a few weeks.  At the very least, you have to encourage SOME sort of structure.  Eve does that pretty effectively, but I don't know how well that would work with the WoW high fantasy type crowd.  I don't see a structure-free type environment working that well with MMOs in general (especially the fantasy types).  Shadowbane was another structure-free type game and it bombed in the worst way.  But then, their shoddy gameplay had a lot to do with that as well.

 

EvE works because it has some very effective twists that prohibit ganking, like Concord blowing your ship and your stuff to pieces when you attack at will in high security space.

Or the fact that you cannot be "uber" enough to get away against a larger force.

I still think sandbox does not mean open PvP. Sandbox means able to create, real life is a sandbox and if you wanna live a regular life, you can't PvP at all... Combat is not a prerequisite of creativity and creative gameplay. Building your own house, designin your own items, selling them, etc, is NOT correlating with any form of PvP combat need.

People THINK it is because they demand out-of-the-box design without leaving their own though box of UO, SWG and SB. Creativity =|= PvP