Linearity is what most people need, because the player doesnt need any intelligence to follow. Thats what made wow so popular, simplicity

I really dont see the point if it is linear or not. You got plenty of freedom in how to level up. All you got to do is either pick Destruction or Order, then once there, pick your class, then run to a war camp and decide, where you want to go. Just cause your a dwarf, doesnt mean, you must stay in the dwarf area. There is alot of freedom here, plus you can level up by just RvR.

If your soooo worried about linear, then go away. WarHammer has freedom if you open your eyes.

Only difference here is that WarHammer has a story line which alot of you fouls, no nothing about. WoW is made up and stolen from WarHammer. So they have no depth and is very linear.

The problem with non-linear games comes in lack of direction. Not that there can’t be direction /without/ being so linear but doing so in such a straight fashion definitely saves programming time, money and gets the game out faster. It’s all about money, after all. Designers know people will pay to play these games, in the hopes of finding ‘the one’. Why? Because MMOs are no longer niche games as they were in the beginning and in the days of UO/Everquest.

In my mind, my ideal MMO would allow for the good-ol’ finding quests through rumors whispered in taverns, pieces of maps found of dusty tombs, wandering across villages and towns in travels.
Personally, I want to be able to take up shop if I want to and be a baker, farmer, etc. I want to be able to live the life of a nomad, wandering across the countries in search of adventure and treasure. I want choice and freedom to do what I see as fun in a game.

But until developers create for the gamers themselves and NOT for the bottom dollar, you won’t see such in an MMO.

And in EVE’s credit, it is a very open and expansive game. However, the control scheme is daunting for me personally, as is the whole stock market thing. EVE is a game of politics and industry and unless those two things appeal to you, you’re really just out of your league in it.
 

Originally posted by Kilmar

Linearity is what most people need, because the player doesnt need any intelligence to follow. Thats what made wow so popular, simplicity

Considering some of the mental giants I've met playing sandbox games I'd say your assertion lacks credibility.

Originally posted by Battlekruse

The problem with non-linear games comes in lack of direction. Not that there can’t be direction /without/ being so linear but doing so in such a straight fashion definitely saves programming time, money and gets the game out faster. It’s all about money, after all. Designers know people will pay to play these games, in the hopes of finding ‘the one’. Why? Because MMOs are no longer niche games as they were in the beginning and in the days of UO/Everquest.

In my mind, my ideal MMO would allow for the good-ol’ finding quests through rumors whispered in taverns, pieces of maps found of dusty tombs, wandering across villages and towns in travels.
Personally, I want to be able to take up shop if I want to and be a baker, farmer, etc. I want to be able to live the life of a nomad, wandering across the countries in search of adventure and treasure. I want choice and freedom to do what I see as fun in a game.

But until developers create for the gamers themselves and NOT for the bottom dollar, you won’t see such in an MMO.

And in EVE’s credit, it is a very open and expansive game. However, the control scheme is daunting for me personally, as is the whole stock market thing. EVE is a game of politics and industry and unless those two things appeal to you, you’re really just out of your league in it.
 

Lack of direction was what made it into an underground genre. Really, almost no one knew WTF a MMORPG was before WoW came out, and now everyone does. WoW changed the ways of a MMORPG. MMORPGs we see today are no longer what MMORPGs were. I call them next-gen MMORPG's, MMORPG's for that sheep crowd.

What needs to be avoided is stereo typing people into " real MMOers want an sand box while linear play is for casual carebears".

Of course when this happens on this forum it will bring the internet down and we will all be moving into caves cause civilization will collapse.

Originally posted by Dedthom

What needs to be avoided is stereo typing people into " real MMOers want an sand box while linear play is for casual carebears".

Of course when this happens on this forum it will bring the internet down and we will all be moving into caves cause civilization will collapse.

Well, people who grew up with old-school MMORPGs will of course like sandbox a lot more while neo-MMORPG players except them to be linear. It's all decided by what we grew up with, and I grew up with the DAoC, SWG type of MMORPG.

Originally posted by Hawkaron

 

Lack of direction was what made it into an underground genre. Really, almost no one knew WTF a MMORPG was before WoW came out, and now everyone does. WoW changed the ways of a MMORPG. MMORPGs we see today are no longer what MMORPGs were. I call them next-gen MMORPG's, MMORPG's for that sheep crowd.

Untrue. There were dozens of linear MMOs before WoW and only a handful of mostly unsucessful, even by the modest standards of the day, sandbox MMOs. WoW made MMOs more accessable to the general public. That's it's only real contribution to the genre.  Call them what you will they work and sand boxes almost never do.  Just because you prefer one style over anoher doesn't make it, or you, superior.

Do you really need direction that much? Almost all of you probably went through school, went to college without even thinking about it, and then got a normal job and married to some random girl and had kids. And anyone still in school will probably just do the same thing.

Then you buy some game where you don't have to worry as much about long term consequences, and "waah someone tell me what I should do, I have no imagination I just follow the crowd".

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Hawkaron

 

Lack of direction was what made it into an underground genre. Really, almost no one knew WTF a MMORPG was before WoW came out, and now everyone does. WoW changed the ways of a MMORPG. MMORPGs we see today are no longer what MMORPGs were. I call them next-gen MMORPG's, MMORPG's for that sheep crowd.

 

Untrue. There were dozens of linear MMOs before WoW and only a handful of mostly unsucessful, even by the modest standards of the day, sandbox MMOs. WoW made MMOs more accessable to the general public. That's it's only real contribution to the genre.  Call them what you will they work and sand boxes almost never do.  Just because you prefer one style over anoher doesn't make it, or you, superior.

Well well, whatever you say. WoW is what invented the new style of MMORPG for me.

Linear is fine with me but the best thing about the game I like is that I can pvp for levels and gear. I plan to do both pvp and pve.

Well I would say there are three lines.  Scenarios, RvR, and PvE makes 3 lines.  Then there are 3 tiers to do these three lines in that you can switch between at any time.  3 x 3 = 9 so I would say at any time there are 9 linear paths that you can jump between which makes the game not so linear.  Most games = 1 linear path, maybe 2.  WAR = 9.  It is actually one of the less linear MMORPGS to come out as far as non sandbox MMO's go.

WAR is actually less linear than just about any other MMO currently on the market.

WoW:  Each race has a starting area.  From level 10 on it quickly turns into two, maybe three places to go for quests.  At level 20 this becomes even more true.  By the 30's, even Horde and Alliance are sharing the same exact zones and mostly the same quest lines.  Any time you hit a certain level, you get a quest guiding you to the next area.  Occasionally you may jump into a battleground, but it's meaningless.  You get honor penalties for every level below 60, and no experience.  The whole level 1-68 range is really about world PvE.  At max level it becomes all about gear grinds through raids, reputation grinds, or battlegrounds and arenas.  There's very little world PvP other than ganking, even in zones that were built with PvP objectives like Zangarmarsh.  www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/regionlevels.html  By the way, anyone who's ever seen Joanna's Leveling Guide knows just how linear WoW really is.  The mere fact that such a guide exists demonstrates the linear nature of the game.

Age of Conan:  Levels 1-20 are Tortage.  That's it.  Your destiny quest has some small variations depending on your archetype.  Levels 20-40 you have three paths that you can take; one for each race.  But if you don't want to spend any more time grinding at higher levels than absolutely necessary, you will ultimately do all quests in all three areas.  After level 40 it quickly turns into the same zones for everyone.  Fields of the Dead leads to Old Tarantia leads to E. Mountains, etc.  VERY linear.  And there's NOTHING other than questing to do, except when you take a few hours to grind out resources in a harvesting zone.

WAR:  Every race has a very unique starting area, with six in all.  Every race can level all the way to max within their own racial pairing.  Yes, the path within that is linear.  There's also a lot less running back and forth, which is a blessing.  At any point you can jump to another racial pairing.  That means that there are ALWAYS three different PvE paths that you can follow.  This is superior to WoW, which at times has only one zone to quest in. (Especially back in the vanilla days when you had no choice but to spend several levels in Ganklethorn Vale.)  At any time you can also opt to go into a RvR lake for PvP.  You will gain experience while doing this.  You will also be able to contribute, because if you're actually too low for the area you get bolstered up to an effective level.  At any time you can also opt to go into a scenario.  Again, you get bolstered, unlike WoW where you're useless in a battleground unless you're at the top few levels of each "decade".  And you get experience.

Anyone with any sort of objectivity will look at the evidence and see that WAR is the least linear of the three games.  It's also the only one to offer meaningful PvP -- PvP that not only grants you experience but is also a genuine challenge of peer vs. peer as opposed to the strong preying on the weak.

Originally posted by aurick

WAR is actually less linear than just about any other MMO currently on the market.

WoW:  Each race has a starting area.  From level 10 on it quickly turns into two, maybe three places to go for quests.  At level 20 this becomes even more true.  By the 30's, even Horde and Alliance are sharing the same exact zones and mostly the same quest lines.  Any time you hit a certain level, you get a quest guiding you to the next area.  Occasionally you may jump into a battleground, but it's meaningless.  You get honor penalties for every level below 60, and no experience.  The whole level 1-68 range is really about world PvE.  At max level it becomes all about gear grinds through raids, reputation grinds, or battlegrounds and arenas.  There's very little world PvP other than ganking, even in zones that were built with PvP objectives like Zangarmarsh.  www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/regionlevels.html  By the way, anyone who's ever seen Joanna's Leveling Guide knows just how linear WoW really is.  The mere fact that such a guide exists demonstrates the linear nature of the game.

 

Age of Conan:  Levels 1-20 are Tortage.  That's it.  Your destiny quest has some small variations depending on your archetype.  Levels 20-40 you have three paths that you can take; one for each race.  But if you don't want to spend any more time grinding at higher levels than absolutely necessary, you will ultimately do all quests in all three areas.  After level 40 it quickly turns into the same zones for everyone.  Fields of the Dead leads to Old Tarantia leads to E. Mountains, etc.  VERY linear.  And there's NOTHING other than questing to do, except when you take a few hours to grind out resources in a harvesting zone.

 

WAR:  Every race has a very unique starting area, with six in all.  Every race can level all the way to max within their own racial pairing.  Yes, the path within that is linear.  There's also a lot less running back and forth, which is a blessing.  At any point you can jump to another racial pairing.  That means that there are ALWAYS three different PvE paths that you can follow.  This is superior to WoW, which at times has only one zone to quest in. (Especially back in the vanilla days when you had no choice but to spend several levels in Ganklethorn Vale.)  At any time you can also opt to go into a RvR lake for PvP.  You will gain experience while doing this.  You will also be able to contribute, because if you're actually too low for the area you get bolstered up to an effective level.  At any time you can also opt to go into a scenario.  Again, you get bolstered, unlike WoW where you're useless in a battleground unless you're at the top few levels of each "decade".  And you get experience.

 

Anyone with any sort of objectivity will look at the evidence and see that WAR is the least linear of the three games.  It's also the only one to offer meaningful PvP -- PvP that not only grants you experience but is also a genuine challenge of peer vs. peer as opposed to the strong preying on the weak.

I notice you never mentioned Vanguard? Vanguard is sandbox and WAR is as far away from Vanguard as the US from the UK.

I would need to level up at least 10 toons in Vanguard to even see all half the early level content. I can level all the way to 50 having only seen an 1/8 of the game. There is no way in hell you can see half the content in Vanguard unless you have 10 atls.

I like war for it casual feel and counter strike type PVP but for vast exploration and free roaming vast world Vanguard wins hands down.

Vanguard is not the same game it was 18 months ago, it`s  the best PVE sandbox mmorpg out their at this present time.

Don`t take my word for it,you can download the free trail called Isle of dawn,it`s a 30 min download.

I like the way WAR is designed. I am not going to debate or argue about how linear it is or other games are compared to it. But let me explain why:

WAR is like a book. It is based on predetermined lore and it continues that story. Each Tier is like a chapter in the book and it all goes together to set the stage for the war at the end. Therefore, I view it like a book and to a degree books are linear because they tell a story (beginning, middle and the end). I view WAR the same way.

Originally posted by Hawkaron

Sure, positive thing is that it gets easy to follow, no need to get lost as there's only one path, but destroys the feeling of freedom which a MMORPG should have as a standard in my personal dictionary.

These games are not hard.  What you are trying to do is posture as if you are a special person and so much better than everyone else.  You are not special.

Originally posted by Hawkaron

Originally posted by airstrike

 Linear is good for awhile but the days of linear mmorpgs are almost gone,too many on the market and too many who do the exact same thing,no original ideas etc (not talking about WAR  ),people are too afraid to make a sandbox MMOG because they dont realy have any good ideas that would translate into massive profit with the least bit of work.

 To make a run a sandbox MMOG takes alot of thinking and hard work to make it fun and addictive,SWG was a great exemple of what happens when you take a good sandbox and try to turn it into a linear game.

 

You read my mind... SWG was the first MMORPG to really drag me into the genre. I think it was my second MMORPG, while DAoC being my first.

I might've been spoilt by how fucking great SWG was, and it was also one of my early ones.

  Your a fool for many reasons one SWG was NEVER great and I repeat NEVER not pre nge and not after nge. Asherons Call One was a 1000x better and much more of a sandbox than swg could ever have dreamed of.

This doesn't matter to me.  When I try an MMO, I'm not thinking "this game is too linear."  I'm asking myself whether the game is fun or not.  A game can be a sandbox type, but if it's boring, it doesn't even matter.  WAR is a little straight forward, leading you towards the goal (RvR zone)...  but when it comes down to it, I'm there for PvP.  I do enjoy exploring, but the main purpose of me playing is RvR.

Originally posted by Hawkaron

Originally posted by Dedthom

What needs to be avoided is stereo typing people into " real MMOers want an sand box while linear play is for casual carebears".

Of course when this happens on this forum it will bring the internet down and we will all be moving into caves cause civilization will collapse.

 

Well, people who grew up with old-school MMORPGs will of course like sandbox a lot more while neo-MMORPG players except them to be linear. It's all decided by what we grew up with, and I grew up with the DAoC, SWG type of MMORPG.

Untrue, there are people who can cherish both, ride-like and sandbox. I can enjoy myself playing a totally linear shooter in multiplayer for months and months. Where you do nothing but respawn, kill, get killed... then again, I enjoy EvE, the tactics, the teamwork, the complexity...

It all depends on what you expect and demand. if you limit yourself to "i only play xy style" it's not the game's fault you don't have fun...

meridion

EDIT: Plus, I don't think linearity is the right term here. FEAR is linear, Half-Life is linear, but even the most narrowed-down games, like Guild Wars, offer a whole lot of different things to do. So the level of "guided gameplay" is pretty low compared to regular multiplayer-capable games.

Originally posted by Hawkaron

Originally posted by Dedthom

What needs to be avoided is stereo typing people into " real MMOers want an sand box while linear play is for casual carebears".

Of course when this happens on this forum it will bring the internet down and we will all be moving into caves cause civilization will collapse.

 

Well, people who grew up with old-school MMORPGs will of course like sandbox a lot more while neo-MMORPG players except them to be linear. It's all decided by what we grew up with, and I grew up with the DAoC, SWG type of MMORPG.

 And your sure not as you pan it "old school" if daoc and swg were your first mmogs and your sure not elite in your thinking.