What needs to be avoided is stereo typing people into " real MMOers want an sand box while linear play is for casual carebears".

Of course when this happens on this forum it will bring the internet down and we will all be moving into caves cause civilization will collapse.

Originally posted by Dedthom

What needs to be avoided is stereo typing people into " real MMOers want an sand box while linear play is for casual carebears".

Of course when this happens on this forum it will bring the internet down and we will all be moving into caves cause civilization will collapse.

Well, people who grew up with old-school MMORPGs will of course like sandbox a lot more while neo-MMORPG players except them to be linear. It's all decided by what we grew up with, and I grew up with the DAoC, SWG type of MMORPG.

Originally posted by Hawkaron

 

Lack of direction was what made it into an underground genre. Really, almost no one knew WTF a MMORPG was before WoW came out, and now everyone does. WoW changed the ways of a MMORPG. MMORPGs we see today are no longer what MMORPGs were. I call them next-gen MMORPG's, MMORPG's for that sheep crowd.

Untrue. There were dozens of linear MMOs before WoW and only a handful of mostly unsucessful, even by the modest standards of the day, sandbox MMOs. WoW made MMOs more accessable to the general public. That's it's only real contribution to the genre.  Call them what you will they work and sand boxes almost never do.  Just because you prefer one style over anoher doesn't make it, or you, superior.

Do you really need direction that much? Almost all of you probably went through school, went to college without even thinking about it, and then got a normal job and married to some random girl and had kids. And anyone still in school will probably just do the same thing.

Then you buy some game where you don't have to worry as much about long term consequences, and "waah someone tell me what I should do, I have no imagination I just follow the crowd".

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Hawkaron

 

Lack of direction was what made it into an underground genre. Really, almost no one knew WTF a MMORPG was before WoW came out, and now everyone does. WoW changed the ways of a MMORPG. MMORPGs we see today are no longer what MMORPGs were. I call them next-gen MMORPG's, MMORPG's for that sheep crowd.

 

Untrue. There were dozens of linear MMOs before WoW and only a handful of mostly unsucessful, even by the modest standards of the day, sandbox MMOs. WoW made MMOs more accessable to the general public. That's it's only real contribution to the genre.  Call them what you will they work and sand boxes almost never do.  Just because you prefer one style over anoher doesn't make it, or you, superior.

Well well, whatever you say. WoW is what invented the new style of MMORPG for me.

Linear is fine with me but the best thing about the game I like is that I can pvp for levels and gear. I plan to do both pvp and pve.

Well I would say there are three lines.  Scenarios, RvR, and PvE makes 3 lines.  Then there are 3 tiers to do these three lines in that you can switch between at any time.  3 x 3 = 9 so I would say at any time there are 9 linear paths that you can jump between which makes the game not so linear.  Most games = 1 linear path, maybe 2.  WAR = 9.  It is actually one of the less linear MMORPGS to come out as far as non sandbox MMO's go.

WAR is actually less linear than just about any other MMO currently on the market.

WoW:  Each race has a starting area.  From level 10 on it quickly turns into two, maybe three places to go for quests.  At level 20 this becomes even more true.  By the 30's, even Horde and Alliance are sharing the same exact zones and mostly the same quest lines.  Any time you hit a certain level, you get a quest guiding you to the next area.  Occasionally you may jump into a battleground, but it's meaningless.  You get honor penalties for every level below 60, and no experience.  The whole level 1-68 range is really about world PvE.  At max level it becomes all about gear grinds through raids, reputation grinds, or battlegrounds and arenas.  There's very little world PvP other than ganking, even in zones that were built with PvP objectives like Zangarmarsh.  www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/regionlevels.html  By the way, anyone who's ever seen Joanna's Leveling Guide knows just how linear WoW really is.  The mere fact that such a guide exists demonstrates the linear nature of the game.

Age of Conan:  Levels 1-20 are Tortage.  That's it.  Your destiny quest has some small variations depending on your archetype.  Levels 20-40 you have three paths that you can take; one for each race.  But if you don't want to spend any more time grinding at higher levels than absolutely necessary, you will ultimately do all quests in all three areas.  After level 40 it quickly turns into the same zones for everyone.  Fields of the Dead leads to Old Tarantia leads to E. Mountains, etc.  VERY linear.  And there's NOTHING other than questing to do, except when you take a few hours to grind out resources in a harvesting zone.

WAR:  Every race has a very unique starting area, with six in all.  Every race can level all the way to max within their own racial pairing.  Yes, the path within that is linear.  There's also a lot less running back and forth, which is a blessing.  At any point you can jump to another racial pairing.  That means that there are ALWAYS three different PvE paths that you can follow.  This is superior to WoW, which at times has only one zone to quest in. (Especially back in the vanilla days when you had no choice but to spend several levels in Ganklethorn Vale.)  At any time you can also opt to go into a RvR lake for PvP.  You will gain experience while doing this.  You will also be able to contribute, because if you're actually too low for the area you get bolstered up to an effective level.  At any time you can also opt to go into a scenario.  Again, you get bolstered, unlike WoW where you're useless in a battleground unless you're at the top few levels of each "decade".  And you get experience.

Anyone with any sort of objectivity will look at the evidence and see that WAR is the least linear of the three games.  It's also the only one to offer meaningful PvP -- PvP that not only grants you experience but is also a genuine challenge of peer vs. peer as opposed to the strong preying on the weak.

Originally posted by aurick

WAR is actually less linear than just about any other MMO currently on the market.

WoW:  Each race has a starting area.  From level 10 on it quickly turns into two, maybe three places to go for quests.  At level 20 this becomes even more true.  By the 30's, even Horde and Alliance are sharing the same exact zones and mostly the same quest lines.  Any time you hit a certain level, you get a quest guiding you to the next area.  Occasionally you may jump into a battleground, but it's meaningless.  You get honor penalties for every level below 60, and no experience.  The whole level 1-68 range is really about world PvE.  At max level it becomes all about gear grinds through raids, reputation grinds, or battlegrounds and arenas.  There's very little world PvP other than ganking, even in zones that were built with PvP objectives like Zangarmarsh.  www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/regionlevels.html  By the way, anyone who's ever seen Joanna's Leveling Guide knows just how linear WoW really is.  The mere fact that such a guide exists demonstrates the linear nature of the game.

 

Age of Conan:  Levels 1-20 are Tortage.  That's it.  Your destiny quest has some small variations depending on your archetype.  Levels 20-40 you have three paths that you can take; one for each race.  But if you don't want to spend any more time grinding at higher levels than absolutely necessary, you will ultimately do all quests in all three areas.  After level 40 it quickly turns into the same zones for everyone.  Fields of the Dead leads to Old Tarantia leads to E. Mountains, etc.  VERY linear.  And there's NOTHING other than questing to do, except when you take a few hours to grind out resources in a harvesting zone.

 

WAR:  Every race has a very unique starting area, with six in all.  Every race can level all the way to max within their own racial pairing.  Yes, the path within that is linear.  There's also a lot less running back and forth, which is a blessing.  At any point you can jump to another racial pairing.  That means that there are ALWAYS three different PvE paths that you can follow.  This is superior to WoW, which at times has only one zone to quest in. (Especially back in the vanilla days when you had no choice but to spend several levels in Ganklethorn Vale.)  At any time you can also opt to go into a RvR lake for PvP.  You will gain experience while doing this.  You will also be able to contribute, because if you're actually too low for the area you get bolstered up to an effective level.  At any time you can also opt to go into a scenario.  Again, you get bolstered, unlike WoW where you're useless in a battleground unless you're at the top few levels of each "decade".  And you get experience.

 

Anyone with any sort of objectivity will look at the evidence and see that WAR is the least linear of the three games.  It's also the only one to offer meaningful PvP -- PvP that not only grants you experience but is also a genuine challenge of peer vs. peer as opposed to the strong preying on the weak.

I notice you never mentioned Vanguard? Vanguard is sandbox and WAR is as far away from Vanguard as the US from the UK.

I would need to level up at least 10 toons in Vanguard to even see all half the early level content. I can level all the way to 50 having only seen an 1/8 of the game. There is no way in hell you can see half the content in Vanguard unless you have 10 atls.

I like war for it casual feel and counter strike type PVP but for vast exploration and free roaming vast world Vanguard wins hands down.

Vanguard is not the same game it was 18 months ago, it`s  the best PVE sandbox mmorpg out their at this present time.

Don`t take my word for it,you can download the free trail called Isle of dawn,it`s a 30 min download.

I like the way WAR is designed. I am not going to debate or argue about how linear it is or other games are compared to it. But let me explain why:

WAR is like a book. It is based on predetermined lore and it continues that story. Each Tier is like a chapter in the book and it all goes together to set the stage for the war at the end. Therefore, I view it like a book and to a degree books are linear because they tell a story (beginning, middle and the end). I view WAR the same way.

Originally posted by Hawkaron

Sure, positive thing is that it gets easy to follow, no need to get lost as there's only one path, but destroys the feeling of freedom which a MMORPG should have as a standard in my personal dictionary.

These games are not hard.  What you are trying to do is posture as if you are a special person and so much better than everyone else.  You are not special.

Originally posted by Hawkaron

Originally posted by airstrike

 Linear is good for awhile but the days of linear mmorpgs are almost gone,too many on the market and too many who do the exact same thing,no original ideas etc (not talking about WAR  ),people are too afraid to make a sandbox MMOG because they dont realy have any good ideas that would translate into massive profit with the least bit of work.

 To make a run a sandbox MMOG takes alot of thinking and hard work to make it fun and addictive,SWG was a great exemple of what happens when you take a good sandbox and try to turn it into a linear game.

 

You read my mind... SWG was the first MMORPG to really drag me into the genre. I think it was my second MMORPG, while DAoC being my first.

I might've been spoilt by how fucking great SWG was, and it was also one of my early ones.

  Your a fool for many reasons one SWG was NEVER great and I repeat NEVER not pre nge and not after nge. Asherons Call One was a 1000x better and much more of a sandbox than swg could ever have dreamed of.

This doesn't matter to me.  When I try an MMO, I'm not thinking "this game is too linear."  I'm asking myself whether the game is fun or not.  A game can be a sandbox type, but if it's boring, it doesn't even matter.  WAR is a little straight forward, leading you towards the goal (RvR zone)...  but when it comes down to it, I'm there for PvP.  I do enjoy exploring, but the main purpose of me playing is RvR.

Originally posted by Hawkaron

Originally posted by Dedthom

What needs to be avoided is stereo typing people into " real MMOers want an sand box while linear play is for casual carebears".

Of course when this happens on this forum it will bring the internet down and we will all be moving into caves cause civilization will collapse.

 

Well, people who grew up with old-school MMORPGs will of course like sandbox a lot more while neo-MMORPG players except them to be linear. It's all decided by what we grew up with, and I grew up with the DAoC, SWG type of MMORPG.

Untrue, there are people who can cherish both, ride-like and sandbox. I can enjoy myself playing a totally linear shooter in multiplayer for months and months. Where you do nothing but respawn, kill, get killed... then again, I enjoy EvE, the tactics, the teamwork, the complexity...

It all depends on what you expect and demand. if you limit yourself to "i only play xy style" it's not the game's fault you don't have fun...

meridion

EDIT: Plus, I don't think linearity is the right term here. FEAR is linear, Half-Life is linear, but even the most narrowed-down games, like Guild Wars, offer a whole lot of different things to do. So the level of "guided gameplay" is pretty low compared to regular multiplayer-capable games.

Originally posted by Hawkaron

Originally posted by Dedthom

What needs to be avoided is stereo typing people into " real MMOers want an sand box while linear play is for casual carebears".

Of course when this happens on this forum it will bring the internet down and we will all be moving into caves cause civilization will collapse.

 

Well, people who grew up with old-school MMORPGs will of course like sandbox a lot more while neo-MMORPG players except them to be linear. It's all decided by what we grew up with, and I grew up with the DAoC, SWG type of MMORPG.

 And your sure not as you pan it "old school" if daoc and swg were your first mmogs and your sure not elite in your thinking.

Originally posted by FreddyNoNose

Originally posted by Hawkaron

Sure, positive thing is that it gets easy to follow, no need to get lost as there's only one path, but destroys the feeling of freedom which a MMORPG should have as a standard in my personal dictionary.

 

These games are not hard.  What you are trying to do is posture as if you are a special person and so much better than everyone else.  You are not special.

Wat

Originally posted by rznkain

Originally posted by Hawkaron

Originally posted by Dedthom

What needs to be avoided is stereo typing people into " real MMOers want an sand box while linear play is for casual carebears".

Of course when this happens on this forum it will bring the internet down and we will all be moving into caves cause civilization will collapse.

 

Well, people who grew up with old-school MMORPGs will of course like sandbox a lot more while neo-MMORPG players except them to be linear. It's all decided by what we grew up with, and I grew up with the DAoC, SWG type of MMORPG.

 

 And your sure not as you pan it "old school" if daoc and swg were your first mmogs and your sure not elite in your thinking.

I never said that they are old-school.

Originally posted by Meridion

Originally posted by Hawkaron

Originally posted by Dedthom

What needs to be avoided is stereo typing people into " real MMOers want an sand box while linear play is for casual carebears".

Of course when this happens on this forum it will bring the internet down and we will all be moving into caves cause civilization will collapse.

 

Well, people who grew up with old-school MMORPGs will of course like sandbox a lot more while neo-MMORPG players except them to be linear. It's all decided by what we grew up with, and I grew up with the DAoC, SWG type of MMORPG.

Untrue, there are people who can cherish both, ride-like and sandbox. I can enjoy myself playing a totally linear shooter in multiplayer for months and months. Where you do nothing but respawn, kill, get killed... then again, I enjoy EvE, the tactics, the teamwork, the complexity...

It all depends on what you expect and demand. if you limit yourself to "i only play xy style" it's not the game's fault you don't have fun...

meridion

 

EDIT: Plus, I don't think linearity is the right term here. FEAR is linear, Half-Life is linear, but even the most narrowed-down games, like Guild Wars, offer a whole lot of different things to do. So the level of "guided gameplay" is pretty low compared to regular multiplayer-capable games.

It's natural to be used to how you originally played a genre. You played and liked it for what it was, and then here comes the new refined MMORPG game that sets a standard for the next generation, but you feel that it somehow differentiates from the MMORPGs you used to play. Sadly, you don't seem to enjoy it, so you demand MMORPGs to be like how they were when you actually liked the genre.

That's how it is like in my case. I feel that something has changed, and unfortunately I don't like it.

Yeah that group Linear really sucked in the 90's, they all looked like they were Gerardo (Rico Suave)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=artK5RbwSr0

Oh, sorry, were talking about mmorpgs...

SWG and EVE are the only sandbox style games I really liked. However I am not digging the SWG conversion to a linear mmorpg either.

EVE however, I get my fix when I want something different than land base mmo's.

Originally posted by Hawkaron

Originally posted by Meridion

Originally posted by Hawkaron

Originally posted by Dedthom

What needs to be avoided is stereo typing people into " real MMOers want an sand box while linear play is for casual carebears".

Of course when this happens on this forum it will bring the internet down and we will all be moving into caves cause civilization will collapse.

 

Well, people who grew up with old-school MMORPGs will of course like sandbox a lot more while neo-MMORPG players except them to be linear. It's all decided by what we grew up with, and I grew up with the DAoC, SWG type of MMORPG.

Untrue, there are people who can cherish both, ride-like and sandbox. I can enjoy myself playing a totally linear shooter in multiplayer for months and months. Where you do nothing but respawn, kill, get killed... then again, I enjoy EvE, the tactics, the teamwork, the complexity...

It all depends on what you expect and demand. if you limit yourself to "i only play xy style" it's not the game's fault you don't have fun...

meridion

 

EDIT: Plus, I don't think linearity is the right term here. FEAR is linear, Half-Life is linear, but even the most narrowed-down games, like Guild Wars, offer a whole lot of different things to do. So the level of "guided gameplay" is pretty low compared to regular multiplayer-capable games.

 

It's natural to be used to how you originally played a genre. You played and liked it for what it was, and then here comes the new refined MMORPG game that sets a standard for the next generation, but you feel that it somehow differentiates from the MMORPGs you used to play. Sadly, you don't seem to enjoy it, so you demand MMORPGs to be like how they were when you actually liked the genre.

That's how it is like in my case. I feel that something has changed, and unfortunately I don't like it.

This may be true for _you_ but I started back in the mid 90s to and it does not apply to me. I can enjoy the genre like it is now as well as I can enjoy the retro-style games like EvE.

Exactly for the same reasons btw -> Enjoying a genre for what it was and now is, and probably what it will be. As long as it's a game I'm gonna play it and enjoy myself.

BTW it's not THAT different, it's not like adventures, jumpnruns or space simulations, these games totally disappeared or merged with different types and bred to completely new gameplay experiences, like the 3D-action-adventure; ever though you would be shooting your way through a "use bar with door"-game when you played indiana jones III in 1992... ?

Meridion

Originally posted by Malall

Originally posted by aurick

WAR is actually less linear than just about any other MMO currently on the market.

WoW:  Each race has a starting area.  From level 10 on it quickly turns into two, maybe three places to go for quests.  At level 20 this becomes even more true.  By the 30's, even Horde and Alliance are sharing the same exact zones and mostly the same quest lines.  Any time you hit a certain level, you get a quest guiding you to the next area.  Occasionally you may jump into a battleground, but it's meaningless.  You get honor penalties for every level below 60, and no experience.  The whole level 1-68 range is really about world PvE.  At max level it becomes all about gear grinds through raids, reputation grinds, or battlegrounds and arenas.  There's very little world PvP other than ganking, even in zones that were built with PvP objectives like Zangarmarsh.  www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/regionlevels.html  By the way, anyone who's ever seen Joanna's Leveling Guide knows just how linear WoW really is.  The mere fact that such a guide exists demonstrates the linear nature of the game.

 

Age of Conan:  Levels 1-20 are Tortage.  That's it.  Your destiny quest has some small variations depending on your archetype.  Levels 20-40 you have three paths that you can take; one for each race.  But if you don't want to spend any more time grinding at higher levels than absolutely necessary, you will ultimately do all quests in all three areas.  After level 40 it quickly turns into the same zones for everyone.  Fields of the Dead leads to Old Tarantia leads to E. Mountains, etc.  VERY linear.  And there's NOTHING other than questing to do, except when you take a few hours to grind out resources in a harvesting zone.

 

WAR:  Every race has a very unique starting area, with six in all.  Every race can level all the way to max within their own racial pairing.  Yes, the path within that is linear.  There's also a lot less running back and forth, which is a blessing.  At any point you can jump to another racial pairing.  That means that there are ALWAYS three different PvE paths that you can follow.  This is superior to WoW, which at times has only one zone to quest in. (Especially back in the vanilla days when you had no choice but to spend several levels in Ganklethorn Vale.)  At any time you can also opt to go into a RvR lake for PvP.  You will gain experience while doing this.  You will also be able to contribute, because if you're actually too low for the area you get bolstered up to an effective level.  At any time you can also opt to go into a scenario.  Again, you get bolstered, unlike WoW where you're useless in a battleground unless you're at the top few levels of each "decade".  And you get experience.

 

Anyone with any sort of objectivity will look at the evidence and see that WAR is the least linear of the three games.  It's also the only one to offer meaningful PvP -- PvP that not only grants you experience but is also a genuine challenge of peer vs. peer as opposed to the strong preying on the weak.

I notice you never mentioned Vanguard? Vanguard is sandbox and WAR is as far away from Vanguard as the US from the UK.

I would need to level up at least 10 toons in Vanguard to even see all half the early level content. I can level all the way to 50 having only seen an 1/8 of the game. There is no way in hell you can see half the content in Vanguard unless you have 10 atls.

I like war for it casual feel and counter strike type PVP but for vast exploration and free roaming vast world Vanguard wins hands down.

Vanguard is not the same game it was 18 months ago, it`s  the best PVE sandbox mmorpg out their at this present time.

Don`t take my word for it,you can download the free trail called Isle of dawn,it`s a 30 min download.

I've played Vanguard.  You're right about it being much less linear than WAR.  That doesn't change the fact that WAR is much less linear than AoC and WoW -- the two most talked-about MMO's in recent history.

I do like Vanguard.  Had a lot of fun with it now that it has matured a bit, and I will probably be back to play it some more.  Vanguard is an interesting game.  I just feel at the moment that WAR is more fun.

Originally posted by Hawkaron

Originally posted by goofy3k

Uh...and most mmorpgs aren't linear??

And if you're talking of sandbox style then the days of those mmorpgs are long gone..

 

 

Why yes. THANKS BLIZZARD!

But no, I don't think those days are gone. There will be a mmorpg which offers freedom some time, atlhough none might be in development atm. The WoW craze hasn't yet faded.

WoW is linear as much as WAR. Non sandbox modern MMO that is not linear and have much freedom to choose your path is VG. There is around 8-10 zones per every 5 char levels.  That makes nearly 100 zones where you can go. There are around 60 dungeons and most of them are bigger than BRD and Kara in WoW. With single char maxed you cannot compleate even 1/4 of the entire content.

people think this game is a mmoRPG and it is not at all it is a MMO action game.

it is more like a 3rd person action adventrue game then RPG, am i the only one that can see this >?

why keep trying to say it's a MMORPG is like saying a apple is like a orange cause there both round.

what sandbox lovers don't get is that they served their purpose, to keep the MMORPG genre afloat on it's debut years.

Once MMORPG's learned to walk, the companies making them aimed at a different, broader, audience.  From that moment onwards, the mmorpg pioneer players passed the torch to the masses. And the masses are basicly on the "console generation level". They log on, either go gank/pvp or find some pve instance that they do for the loot and loot only, not the imersion or the interaction.

the glory days of dungeon crawler's are gone. MMORPG's are not a niche game anymore.

And then I see comments about sandbox gaming, what the masses would do with sandbox? where is the loot table so they can check where to go? where is the predeterminated path to glory?

Why do you think religion is so popular? it points the way.

It is even odd how most old schoolers don't even see that most mmorpg today are in essence MMO's , where the only RPG part they sustain is character development trough itemization.

final conclusion: if you're an old schooler, mmorpg's are not your genre anymore, and as soon as you can understand such, you'll find a much greater level of joy, either by living your RL or playing them for what they are now, a game designed for the masses. and masses are not known for being bright, better, superior, but just average.

Originally posted by demented669

people think this game is a mmoRPG and it is not at all it is a MMO action game.

it is more like a 3rd person action adventrue game then RPG, am i the only one that can see this >?

why keep trying to say it's a MMORPG is like saying a apple is like a orange cause there both round.

There is no longer any RPG in MMO.

Comparing WAR to a third person action adventure is ludicrous, just as it would be to compare most MMOs to 3rd person shooter.

Neither apples or oranges are round. They are lumpy.