Lord of the Rings Online

Originally posted by Yeebo

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

hmm, I disagree. At least to a point. The lore master essentially is a bit far reaching but utilizes abilities that might not be understood by the denizens of middle earth.

It's tough to quantify because it's not "magic" per se but the results are magic like. Also, to that end, there is "magic" it just doesn't evince itself like DnD fire balls and lightning from the sky in the books.

The Minstrel uses song to inspire and to influence the outcome of battles. Since music is a powerful convention in the book it makes sense to have a character that can do this. Still a bit of a stretch but there it is.

The rune keeper shoots lightning from his fingers. So enough said.

And though WSIMike is correct that the game developers don't make such decisions without a lot of careful thought and he is also right that the level of entitlement and crying in mmo's is far beyond anything that could be considered acceptable for adult society, I feel he is wrong in stating that just because someone is unhappy with the direction a game is going that hey are whiners and feeling entitled.

LOTRO was presented as a game that was going to stick to the world of J.R.R. Tolkien as much as was possible and still create an online game. Now, hardcore Tolkien fans just couldn't get their mind around the fact that this wasn't going to be a Lord of the Rings simulator (and why would they think any game developer would ever and could ever create such a thing? And make it commercially viable?) and pvp players just couldn't deal with the fact that they weren't going to be able to camp out the shire and pick off hobbits.

However some middle ground (no pun intended) had to be found that made the game "a game" and still be "The Lord of the Rings".

It seems that they have slipped a bit and people are concerned. I myself am concerned as the game that I have become a founder for might change to something that I would never become a founder for.

So I feel it's acceptable for players to complain. Sure, maybe "maybe" Turbine felt that they just needed to make a mage as  most players were expecting it and they might have felt that it would boos subscriptions. But at some point you have to balance the idea of gaining new players and alienating the players who bought into your original concept in the first place. The more you add that disenfranchises the original concept of the game the more the players who actually decided to stay will realize that what made them stay in the first place is gone.

I think it is perfectly acceptable for players to express their concern or anger. What is not acceptable expressing this displeasure in a way that is reminiscent of a 6  year old boy.

This is from the article that I linked, and no-one seems to have bothered to read:

The Minstrel sings words of Power and the Lore-master finds Power from ancient secrets, but there are more paths than these. Middle-earth is a land where language has Power, and such words are comprised of rune-letters. Put them together in the right order and the world can be changed in subtle and sometimes grand ways. There are some who greatly specialize in such linguistic arts: they are known as Rune-keepers. Their kind had a hand in curiosities like moon-letters, and marvels like the west gate to Moria. In these troubled times, even these normally secluded linguists have stepped up to fight against the Enemy.

And also :

Is this Magic?

A question I know some of you will be asking is "Does the Rune-keeper use magic?" The answer is a little yes, and a little no. In Tolkien's world, and in our world, ‘magic' is a term for explaining things that are not well understood. A perfect example of this is when Sam was offered to look in Galadriel's Mirror:

'And you? ' she said, turning to Sam. 'For this is what your folk would call magic. I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel.'

Rune-keepers utilize the Power of writing and of words to change small bits of the world. There are some who would call this magic, while others would call this the natural way of things.

It is worth mentioning that of the races of Middle-earth, only Elves and Dwarves have such innate Power. No Man or hobbit scribe could harness the power of runes in these ways; such talents are not part of their nature. Yet to an Elf, such things can be as natural as breathing.

 

So I will say it again.  Rune-keepers aren't going to be any more out of line with the lore than a Loremaster or Minsterel.  

By the time you are 20, as a Loremaster you are doing stuff that is impossible to justify outside of it being some sort of nature based magic. I don't remember anyone from the books that had a friendly attack lynx, or that could somehow convince earth tremors to strike the exact spot that they need.   The only one that could convince lighting to strike where they wanted it too was Gandalf, that is a LM ability.  "Artistic representation" or not the LM is a huge stretch for the lore.

So you either got pissed and left already, or you should be ok with the Runekeeper.   

 

 

Yes, I did read it. Twice.

There is still no reason why there is a nuking class in middle earth, regardless of where one argues that power comes from. Which I feel is sort of silly as it's "magic'. It doesn't exist but there is of course a sort of method to how it might be possible for it to exist.

Minstels don't nuke (as far as I know!) and Lore masters utilize simple science for their attacks. Which is about as much as I was willing to stretch.

So "no" I didn't get pissed and leave when they gave the LM what the LM had but I wasn't happy with it. I am more "not happy" with the Rune Keeper.

I have stopped playing.  I don't complain or post in official forums.  I listen, read, research, and make decisions.  There is a quote is someone's profile to the this effect:  I do not need to know how to design a game, (or in this case what's 'best' for the game) all I need to know how to do is hit the cancel button.

I voted against the direction of the game by cancelling my subcription.  Not because I think that I know better, or that my arrogance knows no bounds, but  because it simply becomes un-fun.  It is no longer a game that I am interested in for my personal entertainment purposes.

And was it because of the introduction of the Rune-Keeper?  Yes, but not primarily in the aspect one would immiedetly assume.  It breaks trust. 

What next? 

T

Originally posted by duffalpha

 But all the PvE is designed to be played solo so why not just go play a GOOD RPG.

There hasn't been a really GOOD RPG in years... most developers are working on MMOs!

I'm currently considering cancelling my WAR CE and saving my money to get back into LOTRO with MoM and a lifetime sub.

In my personal opinion, anyone who mentions the words "Lore" or "class balance" in a forum board should be slapped with a wet fish.

If the game is fun, play it. If it doesn't seem to do anything for you, move on.

Originally posted by Sovrath 
 

Yes, I did read it. Twice.

There is still no reason why there is a nuking class in middle earth, regardless of where one argues that power comes from. Which I feel is sort of silly as it's "magic'. It doesn't exist but there is of course a sort of method to how it might be possible for it to exist.

To me the Minst is almost an exact analogue to the Runekeeper.  We know from the books that songs could be incredibly powerfull in Middle Earth.  There is one story where an elf maiden sings a demi-god and his entire castle to sleep.    That is the main reason I as OK with Minst when I first started playing.  Even if no-one in the LoTR weilds  Minst level "song power," we know from the books it's possible.

We also know from several references in the books that words and language hold great power.  For example, think of when Gandalf was trying to open the gate to Moria.  He was just saying different words.  And he said (I'm paraphrasing) "I once knew all the spells of opening in the tongues of orcs, elves, and men."  I other words,  orcs and elves and men can learn words that have real effects on the world.   Although exactly what  effects that are possible we don't know from the books.

Minstels don't nuke (as far as I know!) and Lore masters utilize simple science for their attacks. Which is about as much as I was willing to stretch.

How can "simple science" focus earth tremors on a spot, or summon gusts of wind strong enough to do AoE damage?  Even modern science can't do that.  And whether a minst is "really nuking" or not, they have a lot of abilities with showy effects that hit for a crap ton of damage.  

So "no" I didn't get pissed and leave when they gave the LM what the LM had but I wasn't happy with it. I am more "not happy" with the Rune Keeper.

I have to apologize here.  I didn't realize you were a current player, and I was overgereneralzing.  To be sure, there are a few players that are still ticked about the Runekeeper.   Just check the official forums to see that :-) 

However, to me it seems like the subset of humans that A. were willing to accept the Loremaster, and B. are so upset over the Runekeeper that they feel LoTRO will "Jump the Shark" when MoM comes out has to be small.  That is the main point I was trying to make.  Apologies for singling you out.

Originally posted by Yeebo

Originally posted by Sovrath 
 

Yes, I did read it. Twice.

There is still no reason why there is a nuking class in middle earth, regardless of where one argues that power comes from. Which I feel is sort of silly as it's "magic'. It doesn't exist but there is of course a sort of method to how it might be possible for it to exist.

To me the Minst is almost an exact analogue to the Runekeeper.  We know from the books that songs could be incredibly powerfull in Middle Earth.  There is one story where an elf maiden sings a demi-god and his entire castle to sleep.    That is the main reason I as OK with Minst when I first started playing.  Even if no-one in the LoTR weilds  Minst level "song power," we know from the books it's possible.

We also know from several references in the books that words and language hold great power.  For example, think of when Gandalf was trying to open the gate to Moria.  He was just saying different words.  And he said (I'm paraphrasing) "I once knew all the spells of opening in the tongues of orcs, elves, and men."  I other words,  orcs and elves and men can learn words that have real effects on the world.   Although exactly what  effects that are possible we don't know from the books.

Minstels don't nuke (as far as I know!) and Lore masters utilize simple science for their attacks. Which is about as much as I was willing to stretch.

How can "simple science" focus earth tremors on a spot, or summon gusts of wind strong enough to do AoE damage?  Even modern science can't do that.  And whether a minst is "really nuking" or not, they have a lot of abilities with showy effects that hit for a crap ton of damage.  

So "no" I didn't get pissed and leave when they gave the LM what the LM had but I wasn't happy with it. I am more "not happy" with the Rune Keeper.

I have to apologize here.  I didn't realize you were a current player, and I was overgereneralzing.  To be sure, there are a few players that are still ticked about the Runekeeper.   Just check the official forums to see that :-) 

However, to me it seems like the subset of humans that A. were willing to accept the Loremaster, and B. are so upset over the Runekeeper that they feel LoTRO will "Jump the Shark" when MoM comes out has to be small.  That is the main point I was trying to make.  Apologies for singling you out.

 

 

Then you misunderstand. I don't have a problem with earth shattering "magics".

I have a problem with how they manifest themselves and I will once again state "there are no nukers in middle earth.

I have no problem with language or runes being used I have no problem with song being used. I have no problem with the rivers being controlled (well by characters who have the power to such as Elrond) I have no problem with Blinding the enemies with purest light or even setting something on fire.

So once again. There are no nukers in middle earth. Never happened. Gandalf who is arguably one of the most power beings in middle earth never EVER once let lightning flow from his fingertips or fireballs fly from the sky. You would think if he would do this at least once during the entire saga no?

Why is this understanding so hard? Players who don't like this direction of the game have no problem with great power it's how it is manifested and to a certain extent "who" has that power.

And yes I agree, minstrels should not be magically hitting for a crap load of damage nor should lore masters. The lighting effects are just that, effects. An artists interpretation of what the player sees. It's stretching it more than I like but I just put up with it.

But lightning from the hands to nuke your enemies is too far. Quite frankly the others are too far as well.

So "no" I don't like it and if it comes to the point where it bothers me "too much" I will just play a high fantasy game that does it and does it better.

Regarding claim that noone calls Lightning in the Books

In the books you get to read a comment about the battle at Weathertop where Gandalf gets attacked by the Nazgul that lightning struck and there was great fires to be seen. It's fairly obvious that Gandalf used some pretty standard destructive magic there. Of course, he's Istari. Doesn't mean much.

Also in the Hobbit, he used fire to scare off the wolves.

Regarding Minstrels being Lore-breaking

Can't understand this one myself to be honest. Music is shown through all Tolkiens work to be having power over its surroundings and many seem to build their power upon this. Add to this the brilliant idea to use 'Morale'. All a Minstrel does is effect the morale of an enemy or someone of their own. They don't magically mend wounds, they lift their spirits again so they can continue fighting. They don't scream so loud it hurts the enemy, they use their voices to instill fear and doubt. Heck, the last part is even true about real life so why not in Middle-Earth?

Regarding Rune-keepers being Lore-breaking

This one is more in the borderline in my opinion but as the developers mention in their last journal, I don't think it is neccessarily that bad. Runes in themselves are fairly powerful in Tolkiens work, Dwarves are suppossed to use runes for much of their work and we all know the effect of the Gates of Moria and the likes. Their abilities seem to enter the type of magic that only Istari should have access too.

To limit the races to Dwarves and Elves are wise since Tolkien has described them both as having certain powers. Just read about Finrod, Glorfindel at the River or many many smaller things where the elves seem to bend the world around them to acomodate some need. Magic in its classic form is perhaps not included in Middle-Earth, but in its basic form it is very much a part of it.

With all this said, I would still preferred to have seen the classes being more towards the normal type rather than the magic-user type. Minstrel would still work and Lore-master could be taken down to earth and more focused on what its name suggests, with alchemy and such. Rune-keeper could be made to work I guess, but it would be hard.

In the end, I would say that it is the same with this as with everything else done in Middle-Earth. You have to consider letting go off some of the lore in order to get the product working. The movies could not have been made into an exact copy without failing, and I think they did a