whole lot of energy being wasted here.

this thread also.

Originally posted by susanto1228

FIRST of all, looking at this game my first question is " why should we pay a subscription for this" there are already some PVP MMO's that are quiet good, look original OP i'm sorry this game is gonna FLOP ok, it is outdated, and fine if you guys want to have a small community so be it, because that's what is going too be, a small community of gankers running around for 2 or 3 years until you get tired of it? where's the dungeon element of it? is there one?  where's the adventure?  no, dont think so im staying away, good luck with your Ganking community

You are certainly entitled to think that but, personally, I think it is too early to tell.  Look at AoC for example, a lot of people thought that was going to be an amazing game, and by my count, it turned out to be a flop.

Yes, many of the graphics look out dated, I wont deny that.  They have said that the video was filmed on medium settings, and all we really have is their word.  However, if you look at an older gameplay video, the graphics do look noticable better.  Again, I hope that once beta comes out we will be in a better position to disprove a lot of these concerns.

You asked about the dungeon element and the adventure.  The game does have dungeons and mobs.  The mobs are suppose to be some of the best in mmos.  You can't just sit there as a tank and hold agro, the mobs aren't that mindless.  There are caves and dungeons and goblin outposts.  They aren't instanced though, so if those are the dungeons you are looking for, than no, this game is not for you. 

You ask about adventure, I think that this game, more than any other is full of adventure, or at least what I consider adventure.  You never know what you will find in darkfall.  Say every day for a week, you go to this goblin outpost and kill a bunch of them every day.  You might go there the next day and the outpost is gone, the goblins aren't going to stick around if they're constantly getting slaughtered every day.  If you want those goblins, you need to find them again.  Sounds like an adventure to me.  If you spend every day going to the same mine to get ore, you might be in for a big surprise when tomorrow it is inhabited by a dragon.  Is this not an adventure?  The world is massive by comparison, and there are plent of places to visit and explore.  If these doesn't sound like adventure ready experiences for you, I'm not sure if there is anything else I can say to convince you.

As for the subscription, that is up to you.  If this isn't a game for you, I don't expect you to pay for it.  I personally wouldn't pay for WoW.  I don't find the game fun and to me it seems like a chatroom with avatars, but that is just my opinion.

well, I have to admire your loyalty to DF, you defend the game and that's great. I've been there, defending a game until you can't defend no more and you yourself(talking about me) can't take anymore.

I wish Darkfall Luck I never wish anything bad on MMO's, I think the community as a whole is divided, we have a finicky crowd, we have been lied too and never paid attention to.   

If DF does have serious problems with large ganking clans taking over servers and declning subscriptions then I hope DF takes another approach and sees the errors in their model. 

The first indication of this is IF they start to merge servers early only time will tell. GL

The real problem here is that this game has taken way too long to develop. Ppl should be discussing the perticulars of  gameplay instead of if the game exists.

I hope that beta is out very soon or go gold or this will get worse.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

How is that a logical arguement?  It is impossiable for me to prove Darkfall exist so the burden of proof is on proving its real?  Seriously please think about that and tell me that has any logic to it at all.
 

The burden of proof always lies on both sides, never on one side.  You must prove it does not exist and I must prove it does exist.   Just like in the American court system, You must prove I did the crime, while I must prove I did not do the crime.   Its simple logic.

With any good debate the burden of proof is on both sides.  If it is impossiable to proof that Darkfall exist then logically Darkfall does exist.   How hard is that to understand?

I have developer logs, Video's, Screenshots, Beta sign up pages, a publisher as my proof.  You only have your opinion as proof.  Logic againt states that I have the proof and you do not..... Their for its on you to disprove my proof which you cannot.

What you got next?

Argumentum ad ignorantiam (argument to ignorance): This is the fallacy of assuming something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false. For example, someone might argue that global warming is certainly occurring because nobody has demonstrated conclusively that it is not. But failing to prove the global warming theory false is not the same as proving it true.

From California State University

Please please check your facts. In fact, this website uses the same example you did: an American Courtroom. Ever heard of the phrase "Innocent until proven guilty?" I believe the key word there is "proven," implying that the burden of proof rests on the party trying to prove something into existence (the prosecution) as opposed to the party trying to prove something into unexistence (the defense). I cannot possibly prove Darkfall into unexistence, therefore you must prove it into existence.

What evidence do you provide? Developer logs? I could write those myself in my spare time, whether I have a game in development or not. Videos? I've seen claims that these were faked, but I consider them to be real. Even so, they offer no conclusive evidence that points to Darkfall. There is a few seconds (compiled) of UI footage, and absolutely nothing that would point to sandbox gameplay (which is what Darkfall is all about). Screenshots? Again, easily fakeable. Beta sign up pages? Yea, I could go make a beta sign up page for Dog Trainer Online but that doesn't make it a real game.

Aventurine has to show some realy footage of Darkfall; show some of the features that seperate Darkfall from the other games out there or let us play the game so we can find them for ourselves. Until that happens, I have every right to not believe in Darkfall.

Originally posted by Stormreaver

What evidence do you provide? Developer logs? I could write those myself in my spare time, whether I have a game in development or not. Videos? I've seen claims that these were faked, but I consider them to be real. Even so, they offer no conclusive evidence that points to Darkfall. There is a few seconds (compiled) of UI footage, and absolutely nothing that would point to sandbox gameplay (which is what Darkfall is all about). Screenshots? Again, easily fakeable. Beta sign up pages? Yea, I could go make a beta sign up page for Dog Trainer Online but that doesn't make it a real game.

Aventurine has to show some realy footage of Darkfall; show some of the features that seperate Darkfall from the other games out there or let us play the game so we can find them for ourselves. Until that happens, I have every right to not believe in Darkfall.

I would ask that you both please stop debating argument styles.  Storm, I have a feeling if he doesn't understand your point yet, he probably never will.  That is one of the hardest parts of forums and trying to get people to see your view.  After a certain point you have to realize that someone might not see your point.  Something I'm guilty of not always doing.

I agree with your point that we need to prove darkfall exists besides a few fakeable videos and screenshots.

I think the main part of your posted I wanted to comment on was that the videos don't show this is a sandbox game.  Partially because thats hard to do.  How do you show people that you can spend your time being the worlds best crafter, or just running around in the woods looking for flowers or interesting locations.  Its easy to /say/ you have freedom but its much harder to /show/ that freedom.

Again, maybe I'm being idealistic, but I have high hopes that once beta starts and an NDA is lifted the game will gain a lot more creadability and understanding.  Hopefully once people start seeing the differences between all of the videos people posts and the things people can do in the game the sandbox element will become more clear.

Originally posted by Stormreaver

Originally posted by TdogSkal

How is that a logical arguement?  It is impossiable for me to prove Darkfall exist so the burden of proof is on proving its real?  Seriously please think about that and tell me that has any logic to it at all.
 

The burden of proof always lies on both sides, never on one side.  You must prove it does not exist and I must prove it does exist.   Just like in the American court system, You must prove I did the crime, while I must prove I did not do the crime.   Its simple logic.

With any good debate the burden of proof is on both sides.  If it is impossiable to proof that Darkfall exist then logically Darkfall does exist.   How hard is that to understand?

I have developer logs, Video's, Screenshots, Beta sign up pages, a publisher as my proof.  You only have your opinion as proof.  Logic againt states that I have the proof and you do not..... Their for its on you to disprove my proof which you cannot.

What you got next?

 

Argumentum ad ignorantiam (argument to ignorance): This is the fallacy of assuming something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false. For example, someone might argue that global warming is certainly occurring because nobody has demonstrated conclusively that it is not. But failing to prove the global warming theory false is not the same as proving it true.

From California State University

Please please check your facts. In fact, this website uses the same example you did: an American Courtroom. Ever heard of the phrase "Innocent until proven guilty?" I believe the key word there is "proven," implying that the burden of proof rests on the party trying to prove something into existence (the prosecution) as opposed to the party trying to prove something into unexistence (the defense). I cannot possibly prove Darkfall into unexistence, therefore you must prove it into existence.

What evidence do you provide? Developer logs? I could write those myself in my spare time, whether I have a game in development or not. Videos? I've seen claims that these were faked, but I consider them to be real. Even so, they offer no conclusive evidence that points to Darkfall. There is a few seconds (compiled) of UI footage, and absolutely nothing that would point to sandbox gameplay (which is what Darkfall is all about). Screenshots? Again, easily fakeable. Beta sign up pages? Yea, I could go make a beta sign up page for Dog Trainer Online but that doesn't make it a real game.

Aventurine has to show some realy footage of Darkfall; show some of the features that seperate Darkfall from the other games out there or let us play the game so we can find them for ourselves. Until that happens, I have every right to not believe in Darkfall.

Look I understand what you are saying but you do not understand what I am saying, we are both talking about the same thing....

Burden of proof:  "the ordinary rule is that "the necessity of proof lies with he who complains." For example, a person has to prove that someone is guilty (in a criminal case) or liable (in a civil case) depending on the allegations; a person is not required to prove his or her own innocence, it is rebuttably presumed"

Darkfall does not have to prove it is real, that is already presumed, therefor the burden of proof is on those that say it does not exist.

Again, In theory you are correct, you are presumed innocence until proven guility but in reality you must prove you are innocence while they are trying to prove you are guility.  Ever been in a court room or watch a trial on TV, you would understand the defence is trying to prove they are innocence.

"I would ask that you both please stop debating argument styles. Storm, I have a feeling if he doesn't understand your point yet, he probably never will. That is one of the hardest parts of forums and trying to get people to see your view. After a certain point you have to realize that someone might not see your point. Something I'm guilty of not always doing.

I agree with your point that we need to prove darkfall exists besides a few fakeable videos and screenshots.

I think the main part of your posted I wanted to comment on was that the videos don't show this is a sandbox game. Partially because thats hard to do. How do you show people that you can spend your time being the worlds best crafter, or just running around in the woods looking for flowers or interesting locations. Its easy to /say/ you have freedom but its much harder to /show/ that freedom.

Again, maybe I'm being idealistic, but I have high hopes that once beta starts and an NDA is lifted the game will gain a lot more creadability and understanding. Hopefully once people start seeing the differences between all of the videos people posts and the things people can do in the game the sandbox element will become more clear."

Aye, my apologies for hijacking the thread. I agree that showing actual sandbox gameplay is difficult, but if Aventurine wasn't so shy about showing DFO's UI scheme then it would become a whole lot easier. Show crafting. Show interaction among players and NPCs. Show the building process of a house. I don't know how deep Darkfall supposedly goes into the sandbox aspect, but there are many ways to show it. They might not be as interesting as combat to some people, but it proves that the game exists.

I have the same hope as you, only that I'm not expecting a beta any time in the near future.

Erm.....3 more months, just 3 more months we will know, imagine the wait for all these 7 years... cool it dude!

And again... Hi evil twin!

Originally posted by Stormreaver

Originally posted by TdogSkal

How is that a logical arguement?  It is impossiable for me to prove Darkfall exist so the burden of proof is on proving its real?  Seriously please think about that and tell me that has any logic to it at all.
 

The burden of proof always lies on both sides, never on one side.  You must prove it does not exist and I must prove it does exist.   Just like in the American court system, You must prove I did the crime, while I must prove I did not do the crime.   Its simple logic.

With any good debate the burden of proof is on both sides.  If it is impossiable to proof that Darkfall exist then logically Darkfall does exist.   How hard is that to understand?

I have developer logs, Video's, Screenshots, Beta sign up pages, a publisher as my proof.  You only have your opinion as proof.  Logic againt states that I have the proof and you do not..... Their for its on you to disprove my proof which you cannot.

What you got next?

 

Argumentum ad ignorantiam (argument to ignorance): This is the fallacy of assuming something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false. For example, someone might argue that global warming is certainly occurring because nobody has demonstrated conclusively that it is not. But failing to prove the global warming theory false is not the same as proving it true.

From California State University

Please please check your facts. In fact, this website uses the same example you did: an American Courtroom. Ever heard of the phrase "Innocent until proven guilty?" I believe the key word there is "proven," implying that the burden of proof rests on the party trying to prove something into existence (the prosecution) as opposed to the party trying to prove something into unexistence (the defense). I cannot possibly prove Darkfall into unexistence, therefore you must prove it into existence.

What evidence do you provide? Developer logs? I could write those myself in my spare time, whether I have a game in development or not. Videos? I've seen claims that these were faked, but I consider them to be real. Even so, they offer no conclusive evidence that points to Darkfall. There is a few seconds (compiled) of UI footage, and absolutely nothing that would point to sandbox gameplay (which is what Darkfall is all about). Screenshots? Again, easily fakeable. Beta sign up pages? Yea, I could go make a beta sign up page for Dog Trainer Online but that doesn't make it a real game.

Aventurine has to show some realy footage of Darkfall; show some of the features that seperate Darkfall from the other games out there or let us play the game so we can find them for ourselves. Until that happens, I have every right to not believe in Darkfall.

This argument is void really because the "prosecution" could just as easily be the folks saying that the dev team are lying whilst the "defense" could be the people saying that they are not, as is normally the case when some form of wrong doing is suspected. 

The burden of proof is on the accusers, not the accused.

Therefore it is the DF devs that should be thought of as "innocent until prove guilty" as you put it. 

In the face the defenses evidence i.e. testaments from people who say they have played the game, screen shots on third party websites, contract for distribution with a third party company, the video's ect what can doubters produce as their evidence that the dev team are lying?  I don't think any rational jury would be able give a guilty verdict.

Anyway back to the main point:  I APOLOGISE FOR NOTHING

Originally posted by downtoearth

Originally posted by Keeper2000

Originally posted by Uzik

Originally posted by dalevi11

Originally posted by Uzik

Arcturussage does not speak for the forumfall community.

 

We need no apologizing, as we did nothing wrong. 

 

If you are one of the people who were some how offended by the fact that we are "hyped" about Darkfall, then you would probably get slaughtered in game and cry on the forums about how you need safezones and epic loot.

 

We will take your Hype meter advertising for our game, but we do not need your support MMORPG.com

 

The fun thing about you? Once all your little kitty friends become tire of swinging teh hammer leik in teh video they will quit. If the game is any good at that point, there will be an influx of new players. The second gen players will be more the "other" mmo crowd, and if your game wants to continue making money, they wil soften sort of liek L2.

You have always had PvP options, almost every game has a PvP server. I just can't wait to see youback here complaining both 1) How you got ganked or 2) How you got nerfed or 3) How the game is all care-bear in 6 months after release or 4) How no one plays anymore.

I played WH beta, it's not even salvageable (WoW, graphics and all). This game doesn't stand a chance. Just an opinion.

 

Anyone who thinks that a "PvP server" is equivalent to open PvP has no idea what they are talking about.

 

UO and AC Darktide showed us the potential and flaws of open PvP.  The Darkfall developers are disciples of those games, and have combined the good from those games, with their own style and innovative new features.

 

If you don't like it, tough.  The game is coming out and we will all see then.

 

As for representing the Darkfall community, I would say that I represent "forumfall" pretty well.  I'll be nice and civil if I see nice and civil.  MMORPG.com has always been hostile to Darkfall, so I am hostile to MMORPG.com

 

As you can see, my join date for this site is '04, yet I only have a handful of posts.  My SOLE reason for being on here is to defend Darkfall.  I've done so for years, and with beta coming close, I won't let the naysayers get the better of us.

 

Apologizing is not the in the style of Darkfall.  If I could, I could kill and loot you.  Unfortunately, the forums don't have those features, so my posts will have to suffice.

I only hope that the main community is more like arct and not like you.

If not, DF wont survive.

 

 

im ussally nice

You seem like a sweet little sociopath.

Originally posted by Stormreaver

Aye, my apologies for hijacking the thread. I agree that showing actual sandbox gameplay is difficult, but if Aventurine wasn't so shy about showing DFO's UI scheme then it would become a whole lot easier. Show crafting. Show interaction among players and NPCs. Show the building process of a house. I don't know how deep Darkfall supposedly goes into the sandbox aspect, but there are many ways to show it. They might not be as interesting as combat to some people, but it proves that the game exists.

I have the same hope as you, only that I'm not expecting a beta any time in the near future.

For the UI, at least combat wise there isn't suppose to be a lot on screen.  You have your way of targeting, your opponents health bar, and the blood on the opponent.  Other than that it is up to you to judge if the fight will be worth it (both PvP and PvE)

I do agree that they should show more for crafting, trading, house and city building, along with many other things.  Infact, many members of the community feel the same way.  However, with how long many of us have gone without seeing gameplay, or any information, we are still happy to see a playable game.  We were hoping for more videos in coming weeks but so far they haven't come.  I know I have said this a lot, but hopefully with beta comes answers.

My main goal at the moment is to try and quell the anger and hate between the two communities until then.  Hopefully if we can get people to cool of, more will try the beta, or at the very least watch for information that comes out of beta.

I know that  many of the people I am apologizing for will come flocking to these forums once beta is out to throw it in everyones face.  "The game is real. Look at this video.  I'm killing someone! I just wish it was you"

I just hope people will take the time to look for the /other/ videos.  Ones that will show crafting, trading, normal human interactions, working together, etc.

Originally posted by dalevi11

Originally posted by downtoearth

Originally posted by Keeper2000

Originally posted by Uzik

Originally posted by dalevi11

Originally posted by Uzik

Arcturussage does not speak for the forumfall community.

 

We need no apologizing, as we did nothing wrong. 

 

If you are one of the people who were some how offended by the fact that we are "hyped" about Darkfall, then you would probably get slaughtered in game and cry on the forums about how you need safezones and epic loot.

 

We will take your Hype meter advertising for our game, but we do not need your support MMORPG.com

 

The fun thing about you? Once all your little kitty friends become tire of swinging teh hammer leik in teh video they will quit. If the game is any good at that point, there will be an influx of new players. The second gen players will be more the "other" mmo crowd, and if your game wants to continue making money, they wil soften sort of liek L2.

You have always had PvP options, almost every game has a PvP server. I just can't wait to see youback here complaining both 1) How you got ganked or 2) How you got nerfed or 3) How the game is all care-bear in 6 months after release or 4) How no one plays anymore.

I played WH beta, it's not even salvageable (WoW, graphics and all). This game doesn't stand a chance. Just an opinion.

 

Anyone who thinks that a "PvP server" is equivalent to open PvP has no idea what they are talking about.

 

UO and AC Darktide showed us the potential and flaws of open PvP.  The Darkfall developers are disciples of those games, and have combined the good from those games, with their own style and innovative new features.

 

If you don't like it, tough.  The game is coming out and we will all see then.

 

As for representing the Darkfall community, I would say that I represent "forumfall" pretty well.  I'll be nice and civil if I see nice and civil.  MMORPG.com has always been hostile to Darkfall, so I am hostile to MMORPG.com

 

As you can see, my join date for this site is '04, yet I only have a handful of posts.  My SOLE reason for being on here is to defend Darkfall.  I've done so for years, and with beta coming close, I won't let the naysayers get the better of us.

 

Apologizing is not the in the style of Darkfall.  If I could, I could kill and loot you.  Unfortunately, the forums don't have those features, so my posts will have to suffice.

I only hope that the main community is more like arct and not like you.

If not, DF wont survive.

 

 

im ussally nice

 

You seem like a sweet little sociopath.

whaaa Oo
 

Originally posted by Keeper2000

Originally posted by Aragon100

Ahhh, it wont survive you say?

Can you elaborate abit on that cause i dont understand abit what youre talking about?

Uzik is a good representant for Darkfall community as i see it.

Have a nice one

Yes, I can elaborate.

FFA PvP is not for all.  Less with full looting.

You and others arent informing people.  Just hyping.  And you will be success!  Many people will buy DFO on the hype and find it NOT to be what they were looking for.

Then the whines and the cancels.  And in the end it will happen what happened to every single FFA PvP MMO ever released: it will mutate to a more carebear environment or die.

Soon you will find playing with yourself and Uzik.

You dont like my opinion?  You think I am wrong?  That not only DF will be all that is promised, without bugs and with uberness all around... but you think it will have a player base that will economically support it and that Aventurine will hold their beleives to the end?

That's your opinion.  Mine is what I said.  And if the DF community is like you adn Uzik... then you will just ruin the game.

I know there are asshats in all MMOs.  I just hope you are the minority.

 

EVE Online.

What did I win?

Originally posted by kedoremos

 

EVE Online.

What did I win?

The "I did NOT read the whole thread award"

Or maybe the "Uh-uh... Nope.  Close but no banana... award"

(Try looking at post 21.)