Reading posts and thinking about the direction that MMOs have been taking lately I have to wonder why people put so much focus on the "endgame" content.  To me it seems like levels in most games are pretty pointless in MMOs now.

Take WOW for example.  They made it so people can level faster so they can get to what is now the actual game.  Evevrything in the middle is useless and no one cares about it anymore.  People only care about the newest content and completely forget about the older content.  No new players will experience the same things that people have been playing since the beginning has because the old raids and instances are pretty useless to most people.

Another example I can think of would be AoC.  Now, I've never actually played the game but hearing how fast it is to get to level 80 seems way too fast.  In a way I think the company trying to rush people through leveling ruined the game in a way.  Well, I'm sure bugs didn't help but when people get to the "endgame" which has major issues within a few weeks (or days) they will be turned off of a game.

So really, why are people so focused on getting people to the end of the game?  Why does it seem like MMOs put the bulk of what people like at the end of the game?  Have we as gamers stopped actually enjoying a MMO as a game to explore, socialize, and just have fun and instead just try to rush through things?

Just some thoughts that turned into a post much longer than I originally intended.

I don't care for an endgame focus personally, prefer a focus in the stages in which your developing your character and such *aka leveling :P* because honestly, I don't want to play a game thats gonna be boring till I get to the end.

I'd have to agree.  It's sad that mmos have become all about endgame and very little about character development.

An MMO shouldn't have an endgame.

Originally posted by paulscott

An MMO shouldn't have an endgame.

That's right. These are supposed to be persistent worlds. They should be all about persisting in them, and having fun doing that. The current MMORPGs are really just single player games done in a massive audience.

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Originally posted by paulscott

An MMO shouldn't have an endgame.

 

That's right. These are supposed to be persistent worlds. They should be all about persisting in them, and having fun doing that. The current MMORPGs are really just single player games done in a massive audience.

  Very accurate statement.

No endgame means no content in the first place.  You can't have an end if you don't even have a begining.  Since most people don't play MMOs that have no content, most MMOs will have some sort of end, where content runs dry.

I recall people playing UO alone quite often.  Actually, you could play just fine not interacting with anyone.  Same with Eve.  Of course those games were more fun playing with others, but you didn't have to if you didn't want to, just like WOW, LOTR, EQ2 and all the rest.

Originally posted by scott21493

Reading posts and thinking about the direction that MMOs have been taking lately I have to wonder why people put so much focus on the "endgame" content.  To me it seems like levels in most games are pretty pointless in MMOs now.

Take WOW for example.  They made it so people can level faster so they can get to what is now the actual game.  Evevrything in the middle is useless and no one cares about it anymore.  People only care about the newest content and completely forget about the older content.  No new players will experience the same things that people have been playing since the beginning has because the old raids and instances are pretty useless to most people.

Another example I can think of would be AoC.  Now, I've never actually played the game but hearing how fast it is to get to level 80 seems way too fast.  In a way I think the company trying to rush people through leveling ruined the game in a way.  Well, I'm sure bugs didn't help but when people get to the "endgame" which has major issues within a few weeks (or days) they will be turned off of a game.

So really, why are people so focused on getting people to the end of the game?  Why does it seem like MMOs put the bulk of what people like at the end of the game?  Have we as gamers stopped actually enjoying a MMO as a game to explore, socialize, and just have fun and instead just try to rush through things?

 

Just some thoughts that turned into a post much longer than I originally intended.

Why?

Even if you change to skill-based, story-driven, player-controlled, dynamic content, whatever, there always comes a point when a character gets stronger, and by becoming stronger he no longer need previous content.

The focus on end game is the consequence of character development trough items and raw power (levels).

There is no way around this system, except by making a sandbox game without permanent raid content.

But then, if players gain nothing to play except bells and whistles, they won't be hooked, and your MMO won't grant you much money.

A PvP focused game might avoid this vicious circle, if the rewards are more about having fun and seeing your name on a ladder rather (ala Battle.bet) than having the best gear available. We'll see how WAR turns out.

The problem i think its not the end-game itself, but the options avaliable to it. Currently its only Raid-or-die, or just pvp. If the dev can comes out with more variarity, and more accessible content for the majority, than i believe it wouldnt be a problem...

Originally posted by Omega3

Originally posted by scott21493

Reading posts and thinking about the direction that MMOs have been taking lately I have to wonder why people put so much focus on the "endgame" content.  To me it seems like levels in most games are pretty pointless in MMOs now.

Take WOW for example.  They made it so people can level faster so they can get to what is now the actual game.  Evevrything in the middle is useless and no one cares about it anymore.  People only care about the newest content and completely forget about the older content.  No new players will experience the same things that people have been playing since the beginning has because the old raids and instances are pretty useless to most people.

Another example I can think of would be AoC.  Now, I've never actually played the game but hearing how fast it is to get to level 80 seems way too fast.  In a way I think the company trying to rush people through leveling ruined the game in a way.  Well, I'm sure bugs didn't help but when people get to the "endgame" which has major issues within a few weeks (or days) they will be turned off of a game.

So really, why are people so focused on getting people to the end of the game?  Why does it seem like MMOs put the bulk of what people like at the end of the game?  Have we as gamers stopped actually enjoying a MMO as a game to explore, socialize, and just have fun and instead just try to rush through things?

 

Just some thoughts that turned into a post much longer than I originally intended.

 

Why?

Even if you change to skill-based, story-driven, player-controlled, dynamic content, whatever, there always comes a point when a character gets stronger, and by becoming stronger he no longer need previous content.

The focus on end game is the consequence of character development trough items and raw power (levels).

There is no way around this system, except by making a sandbox game without permanent raid content.

But then, if players gain nothing to play except bells and whistles, they won't be hooked, and your MMO won't grant you much money.

A PvP focused game might avoid this vicious circle, if the rewards are more about having fun and seeing your name on a ladder rather (ala Battle.bet) than having the best gear available. We'll see how WAR turns out.

I'm not saying they should get rid of this content completely.  People will max out levels or skills or whatever there is eventually.  Its just the fact that people rush through the leveling process to get to the end of the game and developers seem to also be rushing people though.

And yeah, people outgrow content, but that shouldn't mean the content becomes useless to everyone.  Again using WoW for an example (its easiest since its probably the MMO everyone has at least tried) once BC came out it made older content pratically useless.  Not many people care about doing anything but getting to 70 so they can pvp or raid.  It just feels like the everyone thinks the game starts once you hit the max level.

Im sorry but when you level/skill up and become great the game should keep players happy and entertained.

A MMO is all about "endgame" because endgame isnt supposed to end

The key to a good game is evolution...

   In the beginning there is a game that has a lot of player friendly learning zones, a lot of midgame content, and some end game content.  As the game matures not only do you get expansions to keep your player base playing the game, you revamp some of the player friendly beginning zones, moving them up to midgame or end game content. 

  The idea is to evolve your world as your player base evolves, a game with 3+ years under it's belt does not need a lot of zones for beginners or intermediate gamers, but it does still need a zone to be interactive for all players. 

  An example of this is a game that I currently play, even though you "finished" a zone and all the content, sometimes the story line takes you back to that zone now that you are stronger.  This not only makes use of the zone for more than the recommended level, it also allows for some interaction between new and veteran players. 

  In the end it is more than end game, the game has to be replayable (alts) and the content has to change to meed the needs of the audience.

Originally posted by paulscott

An MMO shouldn't have an endgame.

Exactly, endgame is for offline static pc/console RPGs.

Endgame MMORPG <-----oxymoron

Originally posted by arctarus

The problem i think its not the end-game itself, but the options avaliable to it. Currently its only Raid-or-die, or just pvp. If the dev can comes out with more variarity, and more accessible content for the majority, than i believe it wouldnt be a problem...

There are more than just raid or pvp, at least in WOW.

Rep grind, dailies, heroic dungeons .....

They should have more solo-oriented content at end game though.

Originally posted by scott21493

Reading posts and thinking about the direction that MMOs have been taking lately I have to wonder why people put so much focus on the "endgame" content.  To me it seems like levels in most games are pretty pointless in MMOs now.

Take WOW for example.  They made it so people can level faster so they can get to what is now the actual game.  Evevrything in the middle is useless and no one cares about it anymore.  People only care about the newest content and completely forget about the older content.  No new players will experience the same things that people have been playing since the beginning has because the old raids and instances are pretty useless to most people.

Another example I can think of would be AoC.  Now, I've never actually played the game but hearing how fast it is to get to level 80 seems way too fast.  In a way I think the company trying to rush people through leveling ruined the game in a way.  Well, I'm sure bugs didn't help but when people get to the "endgame" which has major issues within a few weeks (or days) they will be turned off of a game.

So really, why are people so focused on getting people to the end of the game?  Why does it seem like MMOs put the bulk of what people like at the end of the game?  Have we as gamers stopped actually enjoying a MMO as a game to explore, socialize, and just have fun and instead just try to rush through things?

 

Just some thoughts that turned into a post much longer than I originally intended.

I think this post brings a VERY murky issue into specific relief.  That issue is this: Nothing we do in most games drastically changes the environment in which we find ourselves.  I mean did beating Onyxia or whatever in wow and seeing her head in Stormwinds entrance really make you feel as if you had done anything other than kick-off a cooldown timer to suffer through until you could go and loot her again?

There is no CHANGE, in any real sense, in most MMOs these days.  In SWG you could build cities and arrange your house with nice little items, but you still had a city looked like a cookie cutter copy of someone elses town.  So you had a stormtrooper helmet in your house, so did 1500 other players! What SWG did offer was a fairly dynamic crafting system that incorporated item decay to foster a viable economy. Then they introduced some incredibly moronic set of patches and pretty much ruined what little was there to cling to, at least for me anyway.  Jedi Holo Grind, to Jedi Quest line grinds, to oh bugger - EVERYONE CAN BE A JEDI. 

In WOW it was roughly the same, only to a far less engaging degree.  We had the head of onyxia or whatever and a couple of swords that took so many materials to craft only the leader of a guild with a group of cronies sacrificing everything to him would ever be able to make and wear. As for actually changing the world everyone lived in through actions or achievement, WOW offers virtually nothing in this area.

Then there is AOC. It was to say the least, the worst of these two above arch-type games.  The crafting was worse and less usefull than WOW's (if thats even possible) and the game is so linear and rigid that you get the feeling youre playing whilst in a straight-jacket and tethered to a story string. Again AOC offered the BATTLE KEEPS and whatever else, requiring enormous resources to create, but your stuck in an instance somewhere thats not really part of the game world and most people, unless they were there to crush your little kingdom,  would never happen past your keep and drool. Add in the annoying crash to desktop bugs, gem nerfs, class in balanaces and basically what you have is a game in which, every now and again, youre treated to a bare chested woman giving you a quest. WHOOPIE!

Again there is no control of territory, no world changing events - that make your server completely unique based on the level, quality and determination of the folks calling that server HOME. 

This is really the key to all new MMO development, IMHO of course.  Give us a sculptable world on both micro and macro levels. That is what would truly draw me back into a game.  Not that I can get some uber sword because I was arrogant enough to start a guild, manage a website, install and moderate forums and call myself GUILD LEADER. Rather a game that offers the effort to provide eventual rewards for one, some and ALL players. A world where servers were vastly different due to decisions made by players, mistakes made by players, achievement made by players etc.... I would go back to wow in a heart beat if horde could SACK and run Ironforge for a week or so at a time and it was my characters job to team up with others on alliance and win it back! Ironforge in FLAMES - nothing so motivating as that!

Two cents - I want CHANGE, in the MMO Genre of course!

-Lum

Originally posted by scott21493

I'm not saying they should get rid of this content completely.  People will max out levels or skills or whatever there is eventually.  Its just the fact that people rush through the leveling process to get to the end of the game and developers seem to also be rushing people though.

And yeah, people outgrow content, but that shouldn't mean the content becomes useless to everyone.  Again using WoW for an example (its easiest since its probably the MMO everyone has at least tried) once BC came out it made older content pratically useless.  Not many people care about doing anything but getting to 70 so they can pvp or raid.  It just feels like the everyone thinks the game starts once you hit the max level.

I'm merely saying that as long as you have a max lvl, people are bound to hit it, and as time goes by, the majority of people will be at the end game, thus developpers entirely focusing on where 99% of the players are.

It's logical that intermediate lvls between 1 and max don't get much attention after a few years, because players will spend most of their time at the end game, not in the mid-lvls.

And that's why people rush it, it's a vicious circle.

Yet, if you can find people who simply do not care about endgame, you clearly have the possibility to reroll indefinitely. However in WoW, there are only 9 (now 10...) classes, and lvling a class (before the exp was given away recently) took 2 month of not-so-hardcore playing. So the replayability of WoW has a harcap of 18 months, that is, if you like ALL classes.

That's 18 months of doing the same lowbie content, which doesn't get any update, and it's all about PvE.

In my lexicon, when MMORPG players talk about "end game," it's just means whatever there is to do when you are done leveling. For community driven players like myself, and think I can speak for my guild, Section One, we want some kind of fun end game so we have something to amuse us or accomplish while we hang around each other being a guild.

On the other hand, I don't understand why people rush to get to the end game (especially since there often isn't one). I know many people who will actually bypass content  and grind their levels because it's faster. I am in a PvP guild so we have a lot of people who do this every single game we try. They almost always get unhappy and quit, then pine away wishing for Darkfall. As much as I love them all, I just don't get it. Why rush to an end game you know won't be there?

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Originally posted by paulscott

An MMO shouldn't have an endgame.

 

That's right. These are supposed to be persistent worlds. They should be all about persisting in them, and having fun doing that. The current MMORPGs are really just single player games done in a massive audience.

I 100% agree.

I would go as far as saying, there shouldn't be anything that is excluded as "endgame content", but everything should be included as "endgame content". Why do we have to divide the game up based on some imaginary power level? Frankly, I hate leveling, and I hate long level grinds, simply because I hate being useless. Why should I have to run around doing trivial quest after trivial quest that has absolutely no bearing on the world or my character just so I can one day do something that matters?

We need a system with NO endgame content, and NO newbie content, but just content, along with a good character development system that is in line. Day 1 my character can attempt anything in the world, and while I won't be the best, or probably even good at it, I can still attempt it and have a slight chance of winning.

In most games today, It's along the lines of  "Sorry buddy, you can't come with us, your only level 5 and we are all level 10, you won't stand a chance" instead of something like "Sure you can come with us, even though your not that powerful yet, any help is better than none."

I guess the best way to eliminate a separation of content is to minimize the scope of power differences between players while still allowing noticeable character development.

Originally posted by paulscott

An MMO shouldn't have an endgame.

in a nutshell!
 

A focus on endgame happens with games that have the idea of a "main" and are progression based.  EQ is one of the most stark examples in that the grind is very long and investing time in your main is necessary.

Games like CoH that eventually abandoned that idea have much less of a focus on endgame.  In fact they ahve not raised the level cap in a long time and they say they probably never will.

Unfortunately, much like early CoH, many games are not really made to focus on one main character and do so anyway just because they think that is what you do.  It actually took CoH a while to figure out that most people actually had no real main cahracter.  But the idea itself is deeply ingrained.

Games with a lot of different builds tend to have people with far more alts.  And running an alt with different gameplay or somewhat differetn powers through content  you have done before is much less of a problem than grind through the same thing on your "main".  Plus sinec you only have one avenue of advancement lack of endgame progression means you are stalled.

Thus games with a "main"  constantly need new endgame content, because repetition gets boring quick and lack of progression is a problem.  Games with many builds and people with many alts tend to be much more replayable.

Note:

Endgame itself is a stupid and deceptive word.  It usually means, that part of the game where you are at level cap and the developers have you progress only through gear rather than levels because they don't want to add more levels since that would take a lot  of design work.

End game is not end game.  It is a perpetual grind of progressive content that is slowly doled out.  In general end game is just like the normal game.  It just has some stuff taken out (level advancement) and is much slower.

The reason many people get there fast as possible is because they want to have their character at full potential.  Which is a fairly natural drive.

But the endgame grind is a symptom of something else.  Lack of replayability and large investment in a character

Yes, most MMO's focus too much on endgame.  You cant gain anymore base stats so they just make harder content and better gear which is harder to get.

A truly great MMO would be one based on some sort of skill points and not level, where advancement in skill reaches an exponential curve.  Then you "might" see someone who has really achieved a kind of prodigal mastery of his skill.

To me the second most important thing in a mmo is the endgame, first is gameplay.

I could care less about character advancement all it does is screw the new guy, everyone else rushes through it. Why do we need to dredge through all the levels if everyone turns out the same anyways.

My favorite mmo's had no endgame(10six, planetside,wwiionline) because they started at the fun part. This lets people join in late, and old players to come back for one month without having to play catch up.

Originally posted by MarL

To me the second most important thing in a mmo is the endgame, first is gameplay.

I could care less about character advancement all it does is screw the new guy, everyone else rushes through it. Why do we need to dredge through all the levels if everyone turns out the same anyways.

My favorite mmo's had no endgame(10six, planetside,wwiionline) because they started at the fun part. This lets people join in late, and old players to come back for one month without having to play catch up.

That was the point of my post.  With endgame being the major part of the game why even have levels?  Most people don't really care about levels, so why even put them in a game now when they are pointless.

Originally posted by scott21493

Originally posted by MarL

To me the second most important thing in a mmo is the endgame, first is gameplay.

I could care less about character advancement all it does is screw the new guy, everyone else rushes through it. Why do we need to dredge through all the levels if everyone turns out the same anyways.

My favorite mmo's had no endgame(10six, planetside,wwiionline) because they started at the fun part. This lets people join in late, and old players to come back for one month without having to play catch up.

 

That was the point of my post.  With endgame being the major part of the game why even have levels?  Most people don't really care about levels, so why even put them in a game now when they are pointless.

Some folks may look at leveling and the journey that goes with it as a huge amount of fun.  Other's may see leveling as a "paying your dues" sort of thing to get to the end game content.  Still others may enjoy the storyline and things of that nature.  Not sure where I stand, just ideas to throw out there.

Yeah I agree, I like to take it easy, take it slow, I mean I played a mmorpg I'll not tell the name, for a good 4 years and I only had 1 maxxed out player, because I took it easy I enjoyed the game, the socializing, the experience, the killing 1 monster at a time, if you can't enjoy the beginning you'll not enjoy the end, period, there is no holy grail game with a 'perfect ending' these games are built for there to be NO ending that's the whole point on their end, so you keep subscribing every month, so people that actually pay to have their character powerleveled or buy a max lvl character are really gyping themselves, they don't know their cheating themseleves when they cheat because their too stupid to realisie it but that's what their doing.