Originally posted by jedijef

I disagree. Yes, there was some tweaking of professions in order to 'balance' PVP, the nerfing of Combat Medics being an early example, but I think its a bit of stretch to say that's what killed SWG (assuming that it is in fact dead).

Sony/LucasArts executives looking longingly at WoW subscription numbers is what 'killed' SWG, if by killed you mean 'led to the NGE.'  That had very little to do with the PVP system, or lack thereof.

I can't disagree with the first part of your second paragraph about the jealousy of SOE/LA higher ups at the upstarts of Blizzard kicking their asses, but the reason for SWGs failure is that the constant effort to "balance" the game to the satisfaction of the PvP crowd diverted resources from adding content and from fixing bugs which set the stage for WoW's success, because they had content and fixed bugs, and made WoW that much more appealing.

Note the extent to which both the CU and NGE attempted to slavishly copy the "look and feel" of WoW but totally missed the real reason for WoW's success: fluid gameplay, combat, polish, and content.  The NGE has so much that is directly stolen from WoW (the UI appearance, "expertise" vs. "talents") that at first blush, without actually playing the game, it's WoW with a Star Wars skin.  Once you start playing, of course, it's obvious that the SWG team isn't up to polish and content.

PvP concerns drove the diversion of effort from fixing bugs and rolling out content.  It's obvious that when SWG was published a lot of content was planned, just never put into the game.  All those POIs on 10 worlds that have no reason to be there except as a fodder for content that isn't there.  PvP concerns dominated development efforts, particularly in that PvPers thought they had perfect builds but discoverd that perfection was flawed, particularly when a Combat Medic showed up and rendered that 90% composite useless with a single disease cannister toss.  Then they screamed about "balance" because they didn't have a doc in their group to cure them because who wants to be a carebear?

SWG's combat system was frankly too advanced for a lot of PvP players.  It required teamwork, something a lot of PvPers had no interest in learning.

Originally posted by SioBabble

Originally posted by jedijef

I disagree. Yes, there was some tweaking of professions in order to 'balance' PVP, the nerfing of Combat Medics being an early example, but I think its a bit of stretch to say that's what killed SWG (assuming that it is in fact dead).

Sony/LucasArts executives looking longingly at WoW subscription numbers is what 'killed' SWG, if by killed you mean 'led to the NGE.'  That had very little to do with the PVP system, or lack thereof.

I can't disagree with the first part of your second paragraph about the jealousy of SOE/LA higher ups at the upstarts of Blizzard kicking their asses, but the reason for SWGs failure is that the constant effort to "balance" the game to the satisfaction of the PvP crowd diverted resources from adding content and from fixing bugs which set the stage for WoW's success, because they had content and fixed bugs, and made WoW that much more appealing.

I stopped reading after that point. It's pretty obvious that you haven't the foggiest bit of a clue about what ruined Starwars Galaxies. I'd also venture you probably don't even have the foggiest clue on PVP, or what pushes MMORPGs to be successful.

Good grief.

 Originally posted by jedijef
Sony/LucasArts executives looking longingly at WoW subscription numbers is what 'killed' SWG, if by killed you mean 'led to the NGE.' That had very little to do with the PVP system, or lack thereof.

The bit that makes me laugh endlessly is that on 9/27/06, SOE implemented the EXACT SAME SYSTEM that Blizzard removed on 12/05/06 with Patch 2.0.1, because the Developers found that it wasn't any fun, and required ENORMOUS amounts of effort to stay on top (specifically, botting, or account sharing, so your High Warlord was PvPing in the Battlegrounds 24/7)

And SOE hasn't followed suit in TWO YEARS.

BRILLIANT!

How can anyone complain the game is neglected in any way?

It's been perfect since the nge. Absolutely stellar. Best thing that ever happened to the game.

At least that's what they keep telling me.

Hard to PvP when there are no other players to fight. 

Originally posted by Tenebrion

Originally posted by SioBabble

Originally posted by jedijef

I disagree. Yes, there was some tweaking of professions in order to 'balance' PVP, the nerfing of Combat Medics being an early example, but I think its a bit of stretch to say that's what killed SWG (assuming that it is in fact dead).

Sony/LucasArts executives looking longingly at WoW subscription numbers is what 'killed' SWG, if by killed you mean 'led to the NGE.'  That had very little to do with the PVP system, or lack thereof.

I can't disagree with the first part of your second paragraph about the jealousy of SOE/LA higher ups at the upstarts of Blizzard kicking their asses, but the reason for SWGs failure is that the constant effort to "balance" the game to the satisfaction of the PvP crowd diverted resources from adding content and from fixing bugs which set the stage for WoW's success, because they had content and fixed bugs, and made WoW that much more appealing.

 

I stopped reading after that point. It's pretty obvious that you haven't the foggiest bit of a clue about what ruined Starwars Galaxies. I'd also venture you probably don't even have the foggiest clue on PVP, or what pushes MMORPGs to be successful.

Good grief.

Really easy to say the same about you, since we're just spouting opinions with no facts.  Educate us.  Because to me, it's obvious you never even played Galaxies.

You hit the nail on the head with this line "Some months ago, the powers that be decided to copy the PVP system from World of Warcraft"

SWG trying to copy WoW with the CU was the beginning of the end for SWG.

Originally posted by Tenebrion

Originally posted by SioBabble

Originally posted by jedijef

I disagree. Yes, there was some tweaking of professions in order to 'balance' PVP, the nerfing of Combat Medics being an early example, but I think its a bit of stretch to say that's what killed SWG (assuming that it is in fact dead).

Sony/LucasArts executives looking longingly at WoW subscription numbers is what 'killed' SWG, if by killed you mean 'led to the NGE.'  That had very little to do with the PVP system, or lack thereof.

I can't disagree with the first part of your second paragraph about the jealousy of SOE/LA higher ups at the upstarts of Blizzard kicking their asses, but the reason for SWGs failure is that the constant effort to "balance" the game to the satisfaction of the PvP crowd diverted resources from adding content and from fixing bugs which set the stage for WoW's success, because they had content and fixed bugs, and made WoW that much more appealing.

 

I stopped reading after that point. It's pretty obvious that you haven't the foggiest bit of a clue about what ruined Starwars Galaxies. I'd also venture you probably don't even have the foggiest clue on PVP, or what pushes MMORPGs to be successful.

Good grief.

The constant crying of the PvP crowd, almost from launch onwards, but more intensely after people started getting elite masteries totally took over the development cycle.  The catch of SWG PvP from the start that it was obviously designed for group PvP in a combined arms fashion that would reward well organized multi profession groups, not gangs of uber wanker min/max players.

The thing is, the guy who came up with all this, Raph Koster, was kicked upstairs and out of the way about six weeks after launch and the original vision was lost as much lesser talents tried to deal with a rich, complex, and balanced in aggregate combat system that too many players were beyond understanding.

Without Koster to guide the effort, the flaws seen in the untested high end of the professions...the uber composite armor, the buffs that rendered the armor's intended encumbrance trivial, the CM poisons and diseases that looked uber beyond belief because they bypassed the armor the min/max crowd counted on to protect them from all harm...the devs launched into an endless fight to "balance" in ways the design was never intended to be subjected to, because the devs in effect changed the philosophy of the game in ways the orginal design was never intended to support.

The result was the effort was applied to the combat system and "balance" and everything else was basically ignored.

Can people please stop arguing over this soggy piece of toast and just move on, i just really wish people would put their energy into stuff that's upcoming with a decent track record of devs. like Cryptic perhaps or even Warhammer (though it's fantasy and not sci fi) and then move onward and forward.

This game has gotten very tiring watching it be talked about and argued over for how many years now?

Sorry for ranting but come on people.  Move on.

Originally posted by SioBabble

Originally posted by jedijef

I disagree. Yes, there was some tweaking of professions in order to 'balance' PVP, the nerfing of Combat Medics being an early example, but I think its a bit of stretch to say that's what killed SWG (assuming that it is in fact dead).

Sony/LucasArts executives looking longingly at WoW subscription numbers is what 'killed' SWG, if by killed you mean 'led to the NGE.'  That had very little to do with the PVP system, or lack thereof.

I can't disagree with the first part of your second paragraph about the jealousy of SOE/LA higher ups at the upstarts of Blizzard kicking their asses, but the reason for SWGs failure is that the constant effort to "balance" the game to the satisfaction of the PvP crowd diverted resources from adding content and from fixing bugs which set the stage for WoW's success, because they had content and fixed bugs, and made WoW that much more appealing.

Note the extent to which both the CU and NGE attempted to slavishly copy the "look and feel" of WoW but totally missed the real reason for WoW's success: fluid gameplay, combat, polish, and content.  The NGE has so much that is directly stolen from WoW (the UI appearance, "expertise" vs. "talents") that at first blush, without actually playing the game, it's WoW with a Star Wars skin.  Once you start playing, of course, it's obvious that the SWG team isn't up to polish and content.

PvP concerns drove the diversion of effort from fixing bugs and rolling out content.  It's obvious that when SWG was published a lot of content was planned, just never put into the game.  All those POIs on 10 worlds that have no reason to be there except as a fodder for content that isn't there.  PvP concerns dominated development efforts, particularly in that PvPers thought they had perfect builds but discoverd that perfection was flawed, particularly when a Combat Medic showed up and rendered that 90% composite useless with a single disease cannister toss.  Then they screamed about "balance" because they didn't have a doc in their group to cure them because who wants to be a carebear?

SWG's combat system was frankly too advanced for a lot of PvP players.  It required teamwork, something a lot of PvPers had no interest in learning.

Where have you been these past couple years.  PVP had virtually NOTHING to do with SWG's demise.  They took a half decent sandbox game and dumbed it down to be a fancified FPS with NGE.   The playerbase reacted very negatively to having their entire world turned upside down and most pretty much threw up their hands and left.  those that stayed and tried the new game did not stay very long.  Pretty hard, when they virtually destroyed the economy.

Actually I thought the PVP prior to NGE was actually fun, I had running battles going almost every night,  I don't see any difference between pvp in most of the other major MMO's and SWG when it comes to complexity.   Any PVP, in any MMO will be far better if you involve teamwork.  SWG was no different in that aspect than any other MMO.

While the game had some bugs prior to NGE, NGE itself introduce a host of new bugs, some of which they still have not corrected to this day.

I started playing right before pub 7 (pretty sure of that ) and one thing I noticed from then untill i quit with NGE was that 90% of the bugs were never addressed.  I did renew for 2 months per year after NGE just to find same bugs still there.  I have not renewed this year, nor will I again. 

I have seen a constant stream of attempts to balance the combat system to balance the PVP out, and none have worked.  As for new content, very little even including the expansions.  As others have posted, the vast majority of Dev work over the years was attempts to bring balance to PvP.  Class nerf's, then bumps, nerfed again, no wait... bumped again.  End result was NGE and class wipes along with new combat system.  They have tried to fix it since then, no real joy for them.

I was never a hard core pvp'er, but really enjoyed the Theed, C/net,  and factional base battles.  Going to hunt krayts and shuttling to an Imp town and being ganked was fun too.  Lot of battles broke out in player cities, as well as getting city banned (frequently).  Only thing I can think of the new system fixing was Vis for Jedi in groups, or near NPC's and getting tossed on the terminals.

Sony could have listened to players from all sides and tried to reach a middle ground to make the game better.  As we know, they did not, they only listened to what they themselves wanted and the rest is history.  Content for PvE and PvP'ers could have been added equally.  Small changes to the combat system so players could test and give feed back (both PvE and PvP'ers again) instead of sudden massive changes.  They did try some stuff on test center, but what we bluefrogged was usually not what went live and player counsel was unheeded. 

The game can never be what it was, could have been better than it was, but as it is will not grow in players due to bad rep from too many expatriot players and refusal of SOE to listen and learn.

Tomrin Alindale - Scylla- Elder Jedi, Elder BH / Elder Combat Medic / Pistoleer (and many other Elders)

Kraig Tarlson - Scylla - Elder Bounty Hunter / Elder Combat Medic / Pistoleer

FYI, here is what those "5" SWG players are saying about this artical.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/posts/list.m?&topic_id=738889

I found the article to be true to my experience of PvP in the New Game Enhancement version of StarWars Galaxies.  I used to enjoy the PvP a lot, especially with the Temporary Enemy Flag (tef) system that tagged you as a possible pvp target anytime you opened up on opposing faction NPC's.   So, I'd start blasting away at stormtroopers and then find myself in a firefight with nearby imperial players.  It was very immersive for me, and I had a lot of fun with it.  PvP could take place anywhere at any time with this system. 

The new game mechanics, however, don't have anything like the TEFs.  Also, the ridiculously fast-paced NGE combat took a lot of the strategy out of pvp for me.  The fast pace led to 5-10 second pvp contests, a loss of interesting combat animations, and misfiring special attacks that caused pvp combat to simply not work.  The game has also tried to copy a first-person shooter feel, but offers no collision detection, which really takes away from the experience.

Tbh, at this point, with the current game mechanics, I have no idea how they could salvage it.  They seemed to tear apart an enjoyable system and replace it with a Frankenstein's monster made up of parts of WoW and parts of Battlefront.  That really seemed to make a mess of things.

Also, when they introduced the WoW type GCW rankings, they stripped everyone of their previous ranks.  People had already lost a ton of things via the NGE, and this was just another unnecessary loss.  Rank conversions would have been greatly preferred, and would have retained more pvp players.  People will downplay the rank loss, but those aren't the people that left the game over it.

I suppose it's also relevant to mention that I really enjoyed pvp on my TerasKasi Master/Master Doc character, with force enhanced combat attributes.  When they deleted Teras Kasi, Doctor and all of the force enhanced combat attributes, it was...less fun 0_o.

If you want to see some cool SWG pvp, check out youtube videos of the massive pvp campaigns that we used to have in the original version of SWG.  Those were truly epic.  Good memories :)

P.S. Looks up, hiya Jess! 

Originally posted by theCandle

Can people please stop arguing over this soggy piece of toast and just move on, i just really wish people would put their energy into stuff that's upcoming with a decent track record of devs. like Cryptic perhaps or even Warhammer (though it's fantasy and not sci fi) and then move onward and forward.

This game has gotten very tiring watching it be talked about and argued over for how many years now?

Sorry for ranting but come on people.  Move on.

On that note, I'm very much looking forward to the new StarTrek MMO, and StarGate Worlds.  Great IPs for an MMO ^_^.

I'll prolly still chat about SWG though, I put a lot into that game and really connected with the community.  I think I can do that and still look forward to some new stuff, and enjoy CoH currently (pvp in there in the level 50 zone is freakin' awesome.)

I agree with him in a certain way, but what bothers me most about this article is that you have a hired reviewer on MMORPG.com being completely pessimistic on a game. That's just wrong to me. No duh guys, I know its a review but please have some sanity here.

Star Wars Galaxies needs way more PvP attention than it already has, and in my opinion, Star Wars Galaxies should be run by another, more interested company. Everyone knows that, even and ESPECIALLY us playing it know as well. We play for the Star Wars world for the most part (even though its a horrible depiction, its the most freedom I've seen from any Star Wars game).

No PvP activity though? I would think not.
At least on my server and several others, there are usually planned PvP battles once or twice a week. I play on a server that is usually VERY LIGHT too. If you're in a guild, you get a mail about the event on my server. To give you an idea, there were about 2-5 groups over time on each faction fighting all around Tatooine for 8 HOURS last night. 8 HOURS, and it never got boring or overpowering. This is the server that is usually very light.

Base busting and all of those things are true, and I'm not that stupid -- everything sucks, and it all needs attention. but I would like to know if this reviewer actually plays SWG anymore. There are plenty of things to go around, but I haven't had much fun in any other game PvPing. Although it doesn't have the population it had, its grown a lot since the NGE hit us and has become very decent.

Look you have 11million people playing WoW, and then you have all the other games. According to MMOcharts, WoW is 68% (something like that) of the MMO population. So counting all of the MMOs out there vs. that 68%...I would say SWG is pretty average. I visited Starsider server the other day, and several cantinas were literally PACKED. I asked and apparently it was like that all the time. Even looking at in-game events, I am astounded and might even call it above-average.

I'm not saying SOE rules, because the game needs to be given to a company where ALL the employees are interested (don't get me wrong, dozens of team members love SWG). If you ask me, most of the game aspects should just be regutted INCLUDING the graphics, INCLUDING the engine. Not turned to pre-NGE...just something new.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by theCandle

Can people please stop arguing over this soggy piece of toast and just move on, i just really wish people would put their energy into stuff that's upcoming with a decent track record of devs. like Cryptic perhaps or even Warhammer (though it's fantasy and not sci fi) and then move onward and forward.

This game has gotten very tiring watching it be talked about and argued over for how many years now?

Sorry for ranting but come on people.  Move on.

 

On that note, I'm very much looking forward to the new StarTrek MMO, and StarGate Worlds.  Great IPs for an MMO ^_^.

I'll prolly still chat about SWG though, I put a lot into that game and really connected with the community.  I think I can do that and still look forward to some new stuff, and enjoy CoH currently (pvp in there in the level 50 zone is freakin' awesome.)

I'm also looking forward to the StarTrek MMO, cryptic already has it looking good and it seems they've got some unique ideas about how to interact with the world as a player.

I am tempted to return to CoH but also more likely to hit Warhammer next month when i have the money, did closed beta and looking forward to a few more days when it opens back up on the 7th.

Something about CoH,CoV is really different to me, i guess there weren't any like it when it released, but for my pvp i'm burning the midnight oil over TeamFortress 2.

All right, nothing new with this article. We all know that.

Main problem is that SWG devs do not listen to many ideas playerbase offered. Those ideas how to make GCW worth playing for are well thought and developed.

I wont write anymore because this all pisses me off.

Originally posted by Wewa

All right, nothing new with this article. We all know that.

Main problem is that SWG devs do not listen to many ideas playerbase offered. Those ideas how to make GCW worth playing for are well thought and developed.

I wont write anymore because this all pisses me off.

  Sort of feel the same way - aside PVP on the Kauri  server - that could take awhile (merge that server)

I agree with alot of the article, but I also disagree with parts of it too.

I agree that there is a lacking of PvP content and action towards general PvP concerns.  I'd love to see a revamped Planetary control system, revamped player bases and revamped GCW static bases.  PvP content has been the same for around 2 years now and it is indeed time for a serious update.

I agree that the way they treated the base clubbing situation was bad.  I've always been anti-base clubbing, making it against my guilds policy to base club and doing my best to discourage it amoungst my faction on my server.  The bad thing was that Devs on the forums were declaring it an exploint yet GM's were saying the opposite and actually generating events at these weekly baseclub events.  It was dissapointing because one of the big things advertised for the new GCW rank system was that it would end the ability to buy your rank.

It's hard not to think that they're not taking PvP into account with the recent profession updates.  The abilities given to Dark Jedi, Officer and Commando all seem rather excessive for PvP combat - a Dark Jedi can strike for 12k damage in 2 seconds, an Officer can hit for 20k in a matter of seconds and Commando's can get DoT's on you that tick for over 2k each.  Most people only have 15-17k health...

I disagree that there's no PvP activity happening on the servers though.  Overall, PvP activity is increasing on a weekly basis, according to the stats found at http://swg.activeframe.de/bb-std/tp-en/main.7.html.  Chilastra has been the most active PvP server lately (at least per active GCW officer), you can usually find some PvP happening no matter the time of the day.

I disagree that PvP zones are bad, too.  Overall, I think they've increased the PvP population in the game as they provide a centralised area where you know you can go to and find PvP going on.  It makes PvP as accessable as PvE content.  Of course, PvP can still, and often does, happen anywhere in the game outside of these PvP zones too.

I miss the classic swg.  Even though swg was released to early and it really didn't get the love that it deserved.  I'm not a pvper I enjoy crafting but it has changed so much that crafting and swg has become mundane and a lack of community.

If SOE understood what they are giving up when the choose not having a swg classic server so many have said they would return and reactivate there account for a classic server.

But it maybe to late to do anything now that theres info that KOTOR is the new starwars mmo. I can't see LA allowing two starwars mmo's running.