I ran across this today

www.massively.com/2008/09/01/how-fast-can-you-go-from-0-to-60/

Apparently a new Blizzard promotion is doling out "free levels". They are not the first, Mythic did something similar with DAoC back many years ago enabling you to make all of your toons level 20 once your first toon made it to level 50.

Now this brings into question the whole point of playing an RPG because that is what MMORPG in fact are. 

MMO's as I see it are devolved RPG's that focus strictly on the math portion. Everything from point grinds to levels but have very little in terms of freedoms. In fact some MMO's are far more linear then single player or even console RPG's.

But when a company does something like this...gives out free levels...isn't the message "if you do "X" we will let you bypass the boring grind we have created"?

Now if these games were truely "RPG's" levels would in fact be irrelavent. In fact some of the better RPG's don't even have them.

Story and freedom of choice / action have always been the hallmark of a good RPG. What MMO's really have that? Only a very small handful.

Are the true colors of the MMO grinds finally coming out? MMORPG's as they are currently designed nothing more then dull grinds that everyone just wants to bypass anyway so they can "get to the good stuff"?

Do you think devs are finally going to face that?

Or do you think levels are something that need to stay as a focus in MMO's despite the fact that its just an arbitary rule convention that most companies have stuck because EQ and a few other pioneer games did it?

I know most will disagree with me because we are all deeply entriched in grinding up to our ears. But I personally feel that "Levels" are contrary to what MMO should be about. People always say they are here for the community, etc but really how do you factor in "Levels" into this?

I join mmorpgs to play with friends. If my friend advances too quickly, now I am left behind. That my friend is crappy in my book

So then what I would like too see is the Level treadmills removed. There are surely other ways to reward players and keep them around. But I guess MMORPGs have to deal with massive latency issues huh. Thus, they have to keep dangling carrots infront of our faces to keep us from noticing how dull the game really is

I think Levels made sense in the context of single player RPGs, coops, and pen & paper but in MMORPG setting they are holding the genre back I'd say (actually Levels fubar coop RPGs as well)

Actually so what I desire is an MMO, a pure MMO that either detaches the RPG altogether and/or merely has minor RPG elements where you design a template upfront that s fully leveled, and from that point forward you can experience the real game

I believe it is broken, just look at the recent update in WoW where you can get 100% more EXP and summon a friend if you get them to make a new account.

I wish games would be more dynamic instead of just an endless grind to level up. RPGs (unlike MMORPGs) have evolved to where you don't always level your character but individual skills based on how and how much you used them and other factors, one of the major reasons I enjoyed Fable even with it being so short.

While I don't think they'll change the way it works in WoW or any other current MMO out right now, I certainly hope future games don't follow the trend.

Originally posted by PatchDay

I know most will disagree with me because we are all deeply entriched in grinding up to our ears. But I personally feel that "Levels" are contrary to what MMO should be about. People always say they are here for the community, etc but really how do you factor in "Levels" into this?

I join mmorpgs to play with friends. If my friend advances too quickly, now I am left behind. That my friend is crappy in my book

So then what I would like too see is the Level treadmills removed. There are surely other ways to reward players and keep them around. But I guess MMORPGs have to deal with massive latency issues huh. Thus, they have to keep dangling carrots infront of our faces to keep us from noticing how dull the game really is

 

I think Levels made sense in the context of single player RPGs, coops, and pen & paper but in MMORPG setting they are holding the genre back I'd say (actually Levels fubar coop RPGs as well)

Actually so what I desire is an MMO, a pure MMO that either detaches the RPG altogether and/or merely has minor RPG elements where you design a template upfront that s fully leveled, and from that point forward you can experience the real game

 

I would agree with this.  Most of the tedious parts of life are abstracted out in MMOs, why not training?
 

A virtual world where players start with all their abilities and advance in other ways would be interesting.

One reason I'm really feeling Torak is because I have made the same exact observation. Single player RPGs- leveling is secondary. No one usually frets about hitting max level. MMORPGs took just one thing from these RPGs- that's Classes/Levels

Hey- let's discuss Classes. In a single player RPG you get a PARTY where you most often get at least one of each Class. This means you get to experience what all the Classes have to offer in one playthrough.

Not to mention the latest RPGs are sometimes Classless (even final fantasy) or let you branch into multiclassification (Mass Effect, KOTR).

Hopefully mmorpg genre will catch up with SP RPGs. I still play mmorpgs but I tell you I spend vastly more time in SP RPGs. Vastly more hours.....

note I am not advocating giving us our own party control in an mmorpg btw. Just wish to see somemore innovation here in the next decade or so. Until that day, I hope at least for more complex grinders

Originally posted by PatchDay

I know most will disagree with me because we are all deeply entriched in grinding up to our ears. But I personally feel that "Levels" are contrary to what MMO should be about. People always say they are here for the community, etc but really how do you factor in "Levels" into this?

I join mmorpgs to play with friends. If my friend advances too quickly, now I am left behind. That my friend is crappy in my book

So then what I would like too see is the Level treadmills removed. There are surely other ways to reward players and keep them around. But I guess MMORPGs have to deal with massive latency issues huh. Thus, they have to keep dangling carrots infront of our faces to keep us from noticing how dull the game really is

 

I think Levels made sense in the context of single player RPGs, coops, and pen & paper but in MMORPG setting they are holding the genre back I'd say (actually Levels fubar coop RPGs as well)

Actually so what I desire is an MMO, a pure MMO that either detaches the RPG altogether and/or merely has minor RPG elements where you design a template upfront that s fully leveled, and from that point forward you can experience the real game

 

I disagree with you on the point that "levels" are somehow attached to P&P and RPG's in general.

Yes, they are a staple of CRPG's but P&P have always been about story and freedom first.

Only a handful of P&P games mostly made by a single company use the "class / level" convention. Most do not use levels.

GURPS, Mechwarrior, Traveller & Vampire just to name a few. Most are skill based.

In fact many RPGer's would argue that the math conventions of MMO's have nothing to do with RPG's. All that is, is arbitary rules in which to run a game but have nothing to do with its content and the content of the average MMO is poor to say the least..

CRPG's have gone in a different direction mainly because of technological limitations and the acceptance by the CRPG community of these limited ideas. You will only read on CRPG forums, player that actually write things like "levels and loot" are what define an RPG....

I started with Anarchy online and then i went with Starwars galaxies.

The way you made progress in SWG was awesome, no lvling in the context alot know from other mmos.

You got xp from the way you used yor skills, crafting, or just by using your sword gave diffrent kind of xp towards the path you chose.

Everyone was equal to god in a sense of way :p

Going from lvl 1 to lv max, is just soooo bad when it comes to flexibility.

In swg you could drop you prefessions in order to become better at something else..

But no, mmos after swg totaly ignored that flexibility... sad.

Now they force you to grind another character if you want to do any changes.

By keeping your name and character you get the feeling of greatness, personality, RP, and much more

Originally posted by PatchDay

I know most will disagree with me because we are all deeply entriched in grinding up to our ears. But I personally feel that "Levels" are contrary to what MMO should be about. People always say they are here for the community, etc but really how do you factor in "Levels" into this?

I join mmorpgs to play with friends. If my friend advances too quickly, now I am left behind. That my friend is crappy in my book

So then what I would like too see is the Level treadmills removed. There are surely other ways to reward players and keep them around. But I guess MMORPGs have to deal with massive latency issues huh. Thus, they have to keep dangling carrots infront of our faces to keep us from noticing how dull the game really is

 

I think Levels made sense in the context of single player RPGs, coops, and pen & paper but in MMORPG setting they are holding the genre back I'd say (actually Levels fubar coop RPGs as well)

Actually so what I desire is an MMO, a pure MMO that either detaches the RPG altogether and/or merely has minor RPG elements where you design a template upfront that s fully leveled, and from that point forward you can experience the real game

 

Levels are a way of giving people a unified goal when done correctly.  In past games big gaps between levels would not make your going out with your friend irrelevant.  At the same time a game with many levels gives a main long term goal. 
 

I feel that not having levels in contrary to RPGs.  You don't just assume the character you are.  You grow them over time and you need a number of some sort to show your devotion and hard work on a character.  Once you just give everyone max level what are you playing for?  If the answer is gear or money and not friends then levels are not the problem, it's you.

An MMORPG to me with no levels would just be silly.  Why? because you have yourself a game which has instant gratification like a console game.  I don't want to pick 1 game to use as an example but if you were to give me one I could spin some analogies that might make sense. 

So let's look at what you want an MMORPG with 0 levels.  You log in and group with friends you may have a certain goal you may not.  Questing, treasure hunting, what ever it is.  It has to be fun right?  How would you excel at things with no levels?  Wouldn't everything be accessible to everyone if there was no levels?  Even if it was for menial tasks like picking a lock?  My point is there would be no challenge, there would be no sense of accomplishment.

I think of games with out levels I think of stuff like Fight Night, Madden, GTA4, MGS4.  To me an RPG is defined by levels on all scales.

Originally posted by CreamSoda

 

Originally posted by PatchDay

I know most will disagree with me because we are all deeply entriched in grinding up to our ears. But I personally feel that "Levels" are contrary to what MMO should be about. People always say they are here for the community, etc but really how do you factor in "Levels" into this?

I join mmorpgs to play with friends. If my friend advances too quickly, now I am left behind. That my friend is crappy in my book

So then what I would like too see is the Level treadmills removed. There are surely other ways to reward players and keep them around. But I guess MMORPGs have to deal with massive latency issues huh. Thus, they have to keep dangling carrots infront of our faces to keep us from noticing how dull the game really is

 

I think Levels made sense in the context of single player RPGs, coops, and pen & paper but in MMORPG setting they are holding the genre back I'd say (actually Levels fubar coop RPGs as well)

Actually so what I desire is an MMO, a pure MMO that either detaches the RPG altogether and/or merely has minor RPG elements where you design a template upfront that s fully leveled, and from that point forward you can experience the real game

 

Levels are a way of giving people a unified goal when done correctly.  In past games big gaps between levels would not make your going out with your friend irrelevant.  At the same time a game with many levels gives a main long term goal. 
 

I feel that not having levels in contrary to RPGs.  You don't just assume the character you are.  You grow them over time and you need a number of some sort to show your devotion and hard work on a character.  Once you just give everyone max level what are you playing for?  If the answer is gear or money and not friends then levels are not the problem, it's you.

An MMORPG to me with no levels would just be silly.  Why? because you have yourself a game which has instant gratification like a console game.  I don't want to pick 1 game to use as an example but if you were to give me one I could spin some analogies that might make sense. 

So let's look at what you want an MMORPG with 0 levels.  You log in and group with friends you may have a certain goal you may not.  Questing, treasure hunting, what ever it is.  It has to be fun right?  How would you excel at things with no levels?  Wouldn't everything be accessible to everyone if there was no levels?  Even if it was for menial tasks like picking a lock?  My point is there would be no challenge, there would be no sense of accomplishment.

I think of games with out levels I think of stuff like Fight Night, Madden, GTA4, MGS4.  To me an RPG is defined by levels on all scales.

I'm discussing a brand new genre- pure MMO (not MMORPG). It would not be an MMORPG. Roleplayers can still find ways to roleplay in a pure MMO (like they do in Second Life) if you give them the tools to setup their own communities and virtual environments.

I play other genres besides RPG where we just play for pure fun. Our goal is merely to compete in a race (burnout paradise) or fight to save humanity (Halo 4 coop). There are no Levels. We merely unlock "Achievements" via xbox live. People value that just as much as "Levels" and it is a nice, attainable goal

In City of Heroes players pursued "Badges" religiously and all they did was award you with new titles. Later, they did integrate some rewards via badges but originally, you already had dedicated badgers pursuing these goals

You can have plenty of goals in a game without granting unbalancing power

I dont understand how this exactly is "instant gratification"? Why? Because I can have fun Day #1 instead of waiting 300 days of grind to have fun? Is that what makes me an "instant gratification" gamer?

I'm probably not anyway since I play eVE Online which puts us on a real life timer. Surely, EVE is the most patient / slow paced mmorpg ever made

Originally posted by Torak

Originally posted by PatchDay

I know most will disagree with me because we are all deeply entriched in grinding up to our ears. But I personally feel that "Levels" are contrary to what MMO should be about. People always say they are here for the community, etc but really how do you factor in "Levels" into this?

I join mmorpgs to play with friends. If my friend advances too quickly, now I am left behind. That my friend is crappy in my book

So then what I would like too see is the Level treadmills removed. There are surely other ways to reward players and keep them around. But I guess MMORPGs have to deal with massive latency issues huh. Thus, they have to keep dangling carrots infront of our faces to keep us from noticing how dull the game really is

 

I think Levels made sense in the context of single player RPGs, coops, and pen & paper but in MMORPG setting they are holding the genre back I'd say (actually Levels fubar coop RPGs as well)

Actually so what I desire is an MMO, a pure MMO that either detaches the RPG altogether and/or merely has minor RPG elements where you design a template upfront that s fully leveled, and from that point forward you can experience the real game

 

I disagree with you on the point that "levels" are somehow attached to P&P and RPG's in general.

Yes, they are a staple of CRPG's but P&P have always been about story and freedom first.

Only a handful of P&P games mostly made by a single company use the "class / level" convention. Most do not use levels.

GURPS, Mechwarrior, Traveller & Vampire just to name a few. Most are skill based.

In fact many RPGer's would argue that the math conventions of MMO's have nothing to do with RPG's. All that is, is arbitary rules in which to run a game but have nothing to do with its content and the content of the average MMO is poor to say the least..

CRPG's have gone in a different direction mainly because of technological limitations and the acceptance by the CRPG community of these limited ideas. You will only read on CRPG forums, player that actually write things like "levels and loot" are what define an RPG....

 

Skill-based systems use "Levels" but in a different way, as you know. Instead of vertical growth- LEvels are employed here to expand avatars linearly.

Depending on the amount of linear growth for a "skill" the disparity between a veteran and newbie can be large

However, in the context of P&P, this matters not. The GM can award players as they see fit and can lessen this disparity or autolevel characters

This is why I say P&P does not matter per se- because GMs have the authority to alter the math as they see fit to keep the playing field fairly balanced.

In MMORPG, we are all bound by the global ruleset and this disparity cannot be altered to accomodate a small party of adventurers.

<edit> btw I think we are having a miscommunication, I agree that LEvels were secondary to P&P as well of course!

Originally posted by PatchDay

 

Skill-based systems use "Levels" but in a different way, as you know. Instead of vertical growth- LEvels are employed here to expand avatars linearly.

Depending on the amount of linear growth for a "skill" the disparity between a veteran and newbie can be large

 

However, in the context of P&P, this matters not. The GM can award players as they see fit and can lessen this disparity or autolevel characters

 

This is why I say P&P does not matter per se- because GMs have the authority to alter the math as they see fit to keep the playing field fairly balanced.

 

In MMORPG, we are all bound by the global ruleset and this disparity cannot be altered to accomodate a small party of adventurers.

 

<edit> btw I think we are having a miscommunication, I agree that LEvels were secondary to P&P as well of course!

Originally posted by PatchDay

I know most will disagree with me because we are all deeply entriched in grinding up to our ears. But I personally feel that "Levels" are contrary to what MMO should be about. People always say they are here for the community, etc but really how do you factor in "Levels" into this?

I join mmorpgs to play with friends. If my friend advances too quickly, now I am left behind. That my friend is crappy in my book

So then what I would like too see is the Level treadmills removed. There are surely other ways to reward players and keep them around. But I guess MMORPGs have to deal with massive latency issues huh. Thus, they have to keep dangling carrots infront of our faces to keep us from noticing how dull the game really is

 I think Levels made sense in the context of single player RPGs, coops, and pen & paper but in MMORPG setting they are holding the genre back I'd say (actually Levels fubar coop RPGs as well)

Actually so what I desire is an MMO, a pure MMO that either detaches the RPG altogether and/or merely has minor RPG elements where you design a template upfront that s fully leveled, and from that point forward you can experience the real game

Actually, I think most people would agree with you on this forum because this is the forum where most people come to discuss what is wrong with MMOs.  And one of the most talked about subjects on what is wrong with them is levels.  EQ is still my favorite MMO ever, but its biggest mistake is setting almost all MMOs that followed on the path of level-based advancement.  And unfortunately, for reasons that are too involved to go into right now, they are probably here to stay.  At least in the near term.

With p&p RPGs gms can start people off at any level they want. 

I agree with you, so many friends I couldnt play with because of that reason. I ended up quitting wow anyways when you think about it its kind of more of a fps with leveling spamming skills is pretty similar in wow is pretty similar in my opinion. Anyways they need systems like ryzom where anyone can group but might be weaker in certain areas but it doesnt matter because they can still group regardless of there healing skills, there fighting skills and so on.

@ Torak

Just to mention, comparing Mythics DAoC "free level" system to WoW's XP'ing method is a broken comparsion. In DAoC player levels up to 4 different ways since lvl20(-40), Normal XP, Master Levels, Champion Levels and RealmPoints. Levels 1 to 20, which are the ones you gain free after leveling one toon to lvl50 (norm xp), are merely a introduction and tutorial to the game. WoW's whole leveling system is linear normal XP'ing through the whole game up to last levels and there is no 20 level long tutorial.

I also think that you cannot just say something like "the idea of levels" and then leave it there without further explanation. When you have any kind of developement, no matter if its visible or hidden, there is always levels of some sort. For an easy example, "classless skill based MMO" EVE, supposedly has no levels, but then again it has up to 50 levels in certain field of training, clearly differentiated by the "best (item) you can use". Another examples from D&L and Darkfall, no classes no levels, but when you use your blade, you raise in your weaponskill. A bit more difficult, hidden level system, from FPS's like CS & Tribes and alike: There is no obvious levels, but it doesn't take a minute to see who is beginner, who is experienced, who is pro and the max level I guess goes in those who are in top of the ladder playing on TV. As you can clearly see, as long as there is progression, there is numbers, and thus levels.

I do agree with you, that in WoW there is not much of that sweetness RPG we've so learned to like from the single player games, but please bury in mind you cannot just argue from that point only that it would be whole MMO genres problem, it merely shows your own lack of experience of other games.

[QUOTE]
Now if these games were truely "RPG's" levels would in fact be irrelavent. In fact some of the better RPG's don't even have them.
[/QUOTE]

I want you to come up with a single game name with RPG label but no progression that can be considered as level. Progression is never irrelevant in RPG, its all about it.

Problem with your statement as opinnion is that you dont realize that the problem is not leveling, levels or even the grind. Its merely the linear shallow content given to make it juicy enough for your RPG needs. In your eyes there is only 1 XP bar, and maeby some irrelevant secondary way to level something else up, and that just doesn't simply cut the cookie for you. If the same leveling system would be divided into multitude of experience bars, one for each thing you "choose to do", you'll feel more of that freedom and less forced to a linear pipe of grind, but in the end its exactly the same leveling process in the backround.

My personal opinnion to this is that there is just different kinds of MMO's, there is linear, book-like, "one you done it, you've done it for good" kind of MMORPG's, and then more broad viewed virtual world like MMORPG's where player chooses the direction and the name of their XP bar, and the content is reliveable many times through dynamic design. Too bad they're not named separately yet, so it would be clear to everyone.

DEV's will never "face it" tho, DEV's do what they're told to do, specially when you're talking about a company whose name someone else might know too. Linear booklike RPG is easier to do, if it has decent story (read IP) behind it, its guaranteed to have playerbase, it has shorter lifespan in the long run and when its developement has ended the company can go to other state of the art projects. Games like this also bring more to the stockholders, as their stock value is easier to estimate and profits are way easier to be made. Game announced (buy) => hype (wait) => launch (sell) => before announce of extension (buy) => hype of extension (wait) =>  launch of it (sell) => profit like Trump. Fighting this engine is like trying to take down a field of invulnerable windmills.

When the ocassional miracle happens and some unknown designer is allowed to do a game of dreams, instead of game of buck$, you'll just have to notice it happening and take the boat before it sails offshore. If you've got any insight clue of how game designing is actually done, you'll instantly notice that is enormosuly harder to do 5 ways of XP in a game than it is to do 1 main leveling system. Creating class free game instantly puts enormous pressure on those who have to figure out how to make it balanced (its sickeningly hard, try it sometime just for kicks). Its not only the mechanics of individual that have to forged to be classless freedom (with still juice RPG) but also every bit of content of every different kind. When eventually a company has this kind of thing on paper, selling marketting idea like this to the buck$ to actually make it, is way harder than just a linear "in and out" type of game. Not only gameworld like that has less revenue possibilities (longer lifespan, no obvious hypespots, less obvious customerbase, bad experience of similar games from the past), it also requires alot more funding to upkeep due its dynamic nature and the way its forced to upkeep with the developement of tech. As you see, linear game with 5 year lifespan, can easily just be closed when it doesn't pay its serverupkeeps anymore and dev can throw out a sequel. In non-linear game like see EVE and its CCP, they have to upgrade the game constantly to keep up with tech developmenet.

Most games that have currently came or are coming out, have mixup of both linear level developmenet and multitude of subleveling systems beyond crafting. As its getting more known bussiness model, its going to be done more too. Still, in Torak's (and mine) case it ends up being the question how "juicy" the RPG is, does it really even out the grinding feeling linear leveling does.

I hope this clears the air around leveling abit for you and others. Its easier to gain results, when you go to the root of the problem and realize what is really the problem.

You could check out the history of Dark & Light, was a promising virtualworld like freedom of choise MMORPG, when you keep developement in mind and go through their homepage, you'll realize how hellish hard it is to do one in high fantasy setup. This game failed to client problems tho and is currently buried (not even servers up), its client was just not stable enough, but its as a game is a good example.
Another similar could be Darkfall, even tho I must say it doesn't have much info anywhere of itself, its a classfree, virtualworld style pvp based MMORPG. Latest 2nd video given out out tells quite alot of how it goes. Its on beta sign up stage now. (Yes, really, after 7 years of waiting)

There is plenty of "juicy" RPG games out already. I would even say GuildWars, as its clearly done as a book that tells a story of great depth. It resembles somewhat a singleplayer RPG game, but has juicy enough RPG (to my opinnion) to make the leveling part unnoticeable.

Its hard to choose, when there is only one name for whole genre, but when you go into it with clear view of what you want, suddnely its easier to make the right selection and stop judging whole genre by "I did what 10 million others did and it didn't fit me" attitude.

In an RPG something has to level. There has to be a quantifiable way of making one character better at one thing than another.  I have been making my own PnP RPG's for over 10 years now. (Not the 3 notebook paper small kind mind you, I mean the 100's of pages big kind.) Never once have I ever needed to create a game with levels though.  I don't like them and I don't like games that use them. 

In MMO's (and RPG's in general) it just seems tobe something that developers do because it's easy.  If I were to ever make an MMO (not that I would even if I did make computer games) I would use a skill based system where only attributes and skills are leveled. That's just what I like and it feels more deversified and realistic.

What mmorpg do you play?

I think a few are straying from the point, I said "levels ...is the idea in MMORPG's broken?"

I then used that as the premise that MMO design is messed up because of it.

I didn't say the idea of levels period is broken.

Yes, there should be a quantifiable way to show pregression but that doesn't necessarily need to be a "level" there are tons of P&P games that have been around for decades that do not use either classes or levels. GURPS, Traveller and Vampire just to name a few.

Is not the idea of MMORPG that is broken.  Is the idea of Everquest Clone that is now totally empty and overused.  Like a 80's car stilll  moving...

MMORPG games sould test different type of RPG gameplay, maybe try stuff like Morrowind (skill based sandbox), or more like Fallout  ( interesting fun Perks ).

When you're designing a MMORPG you start with some basic character questions:

Are the characters going to become more powerful, depending on how long they play?

If so, how will that be done?  Shall they have more durability or more ability to deal damage?

If you decide on both, how will that be acheived, through perodicly updating their durability and damage (levels), through updating only those things which are used (skills), through giving them more powerful equipment (gear) or some combination of the above?

If you don't want to make the characters more powerful, how do you extend the 'play element' ie the mechanics of combat?  What will be the hook, if you take away character development, will it be more and more content (which is extremely costly to create), will it be dependent on FPS style PVP (which is done in other genres quite well, no subscription required)?  What will be the carrot to keep the player coming back for more?

I don't have a problem with levels in games.  They force the player to take their time through the content that is in place.  I like playing lots of content and I like being able to say 'someday I am going to kick that dragon's ass' and coming back and doing it.  Last time I tried to play WoW I found the levelling too fast.  If you do the quests for all that experience, you find that you level so fast that the PVE content becomes trivial.

Avatar-skill-based with a low power tier curve solves most the problems.

spend a short-week to get to the maxium effectivness in one set up, but keep advancing unlocking more abilities that you can swap in and out to tweak your set up/build further and eventually open up completely new options to yourself. Granted you wouldn't be more powerful DPS/HPS/Tankiness/crafting/Whatever you'd just have the ability to do more stuff and have more options.
 

Levels are the pure single play element in RPG's, so they pull back mmos. Bad aspects of char levels in MMOs according me are:

1. Levels difference restrictions (resistance, reduced damage, miss etc) prevent cooperative play between players with different levels. This reduces the massiveness of the game to limited range of players.

2. Freedom of the character development. Different classes represent different predefined developement of skill based system. This restrict variety of the masses.

3. Level/quest grind shift player decision what to do and where to go.

Yes it's broken because as you advance the world becomes smaller and smaller and all the content previous becomes useless. Also you can't play with your friends straight away and need to get to end level first before youc an join them which sucks. Levels also creates an end game which sucks because then suddenly you can't advance your character.

Originally posted by CreamSoda

 

Originally posted by PatchDay

I know most will disagree with me because we are all deeply entriched in grinding up to our ears. But I personally feel that "Levels" are contrary to what MMO should be about. People always say they are here for the community, etc but really how do you factor in "Levels" into this?

I join mmorpgs to play with friends. If my friend advances too quickly, now I am left behind. That my friend is crappy in my book

So then what I would like too see is the Level treadmills removed. There are surely other ways to reward players and keep them around. But I guess MMORPGs have to deal with massive latency issues huh. Thus, they have to keep dangling carrots infront of our faces to keep us from noticing how dull the game really is

 

I think Levels made sense in the context of single player RPGs, coops, and pen & paper but in MMORPG setting they are holding the genre back I'd say (actually Levels fubar coop RPGs as well)

Actually so what I desire is an MMO, a pure MMO that either detaches the RPG altogether and/or merely has minor RPG elements where you design a template upfront that s fully leveled, and from that point forward you can experience the real game

 

Levels are a way of giving people a unified goal when done correctly.  In past games big gaps between levels would not make your going out with your friend irrelevant.  At the same time a game with many levels gives a main long term goal. 
 

I feel that not having levels in contrary to RPGs.  You don't just assume the character you are.  You grow them over time and you need a number of some sort to show your devotion and hard work on a character.  Once you just give everyone max level what are you playing for?  If the answer is gear or money and not friends then levels are not the problem, it's you.

An MMORPG to me with no levels would just be silly.  Why? because you have yourself a game which has instant gratification like a console game.  I don't want to pick 1 game to use as an example but if you were to give me one I could spin some analogies that might make sense. 

So let's look at what you want an MMORPG with 0 levels.  You log in and group with friends you may have a certain goal you may not.  Questing, treasure hunting, what ever it is.  It has to be fun right?  How would you excel at things with no levels?  Wouldn't everything be accessible to everyone if there was no levels?  Even if it was for menial tasks like picking a lock?  My point is there would be no challenge, there would be no sense of accomplishment.

I think of games with out levels I think of stuff like Fight Night, Madden, GTA4, MGS4.  To me an RPG is defined by levels on all scales.

No disrespect but I dont think you have thought this through fully. Levels really are not required in a roleplaying game......well at least not in the way they have been implemented anyway.

Imagine it this way. All characters enter the game with a pool of points that they can distribute however they choose. One person may choose to be very strong, be skilled with an axe, has some wilderness survival skills and has an afinity with animals. Another may choose to put their points into merchant skills, tailoring, a bit of divination magic and some arcane lore. The characters would be equal in terms of points spent but they would be very different to each other, serving completely different roles.

So how do these characters progress and improve? Well firstly the strong guy might use his axe a lot.......so slowly over time his strength and skill with his axe would improve. However the skills he is not using as much would decrease through lack of use. He could always pick those other skills up again and become good at them by simply using them. The merchant might focus heavily on making clothes and trying to sell them.......so over time he will begin to excel at that.

Other ways of progressing would be the amassing of wealth, making friends and contacts & becoming a known character. The strong guy may become a master with the axe and learn to train highly skilled animals. The merchant might become rich by selling fine clothes to the wealthy and become adept at using magic to spy on people. Basicly the characters would learn to fulfil a role in the game world.

Health points would never change.......afterall why should they? You dont have high and low level people in real life so why have them in games?

The reason why levels are not neccessary and in fact are broken in mmos is because all of these games focus on the individual rather than the community. The only thing you can affect in these games is yourself. Its like everyone is playing their own single player game in a mutually shared gameworld. None of them are roleplaying games at all as the players are all playing with and against the computer. Levels used to work ok in single player games because there was a beginning and an end......once you reach the end of the game its over and you have won. This cannot happen in an online game......everyone is the "main character" or "the star of the show" which does does not work......and yet they keep trying to implement this single player method repeatedly.

Unfortunately I just think it is because the people that happen to be involved in the making of these games dont have the creativity or imagination to realise this. They just cant break away from the way single player games have been made and just keep trying to repeat the same old formulae. Its a shame really but the human race has always been incredibly slow ad adapting to change. People can only work with what they have already seen and perhaps gradually tweek things. Eventually we will probably see a game that actually takes full advantage of the fact that it is online but I feel that it wont be for a long time. For now we are stuck with online translations of single player games.

Monkey see monkey do.

Originally posted by Midnitte

I believe it is broken, just look at the recent update in WoW where you can get 100% more EXP and summon a friend if you get them to make a new account.

I wish games would be more dynamic instead of just an endless grind to level up. RPGs (unlike MMORPGs) have evolved to where you don't always level your character but individual skills based on how and how much you used them and other factors, one of the major reasons I enjoyed Fable even with it being so short.

While I don't think they'll change the way it works in WoW or any other current MMO out right now, I certainly hope future games don't follow the trend.

Thats crazy, I predict a few months after WOTLK comes out they will give people the option to start a toon at level 60 and drop them off at their factions starting hut in Shattrath with 1000 gold. People will start whining about having to level to get to play death knight and Blizzard will give them what they want.