Originally posted by Reklaw

Originally posted by Cochran1

Simply put, many gamers have families, jobs/careers, and other real life intresets and don't have time to invest in sandbox style games. Instead of a game taking over most of our time we'd rather play something we can have fun on for an hour or two per day. You don't need to spend most of your free time on a game to forge lasting friendships with the people on said game, but many sandbox style games require a certain devotion to gain accomplishment. A devotion that some people can't give.

I have to disagree with this as I find it a sad excuse. Trust me my rl is far to hectic to spend hours upon hours in a game I would like to play yet I really would love to see and play a sandbox MMORPG. And if people are not able to make fun even if they have like only a few hourse to play they should try other genre's of games where the don't need to spend that much time instead of trying to turn this genre into "just" online games.
 

I'd really like to know who started the rumor that sandbox games require a greater time commitment.  I see it over and over, and I have no idea where it comes from.

Fear of the unknown.

Important:

 * Theres no silver bullets.

Why I wouldnt want a player driven sandbox? Well basically it all comes down to humanity as a whole is filled with psychopaths and douchebags and cant be trusted without serious reprocussusions for their actions. I'm going to go out on a limb and say many of the pro-sandboxers are one and the same as the pro-FFA loot-all-your-shit griefers. Without consequences people will be all the asshole they can be to others.

most people seriously wouldnt know what to do with their "online selves" if they didnt have someone telling them what to do.

First the people constantly asking for a sandbox game are proving they can't handle the sandbox concept.   Reason there are free style MMOs out right now.   Go and find them.   Eve Online, UO, and Second Life, all come to mind.

Second, the player base can't be trusted to control the economy and world.   They will screw it up.   A few who have far more time than the majority of the other players will control the market.   Real skill isn't involved the primary currency is time.    If you want a sand box economy go find one of those amazing stock market sim.   Prove you're capable of handling a skill based economy, not one based upon time spent.

Third, sandboxes failed in the MMO industry.   The player base has proven several times now with high profile games, SWG, SIMS Online, to name two that they can't handle a sandbox game.

Lastly, you can build your own sandbox in NWN.   If you're so creative and skilled, build a world in NWN and invite your friends to play it. 

So really, stop asking for a sandbox game, you can't handle it.

Sandbox people are non/low achievers...they like the no-level aspect of "sandbox" MMOGs because it hides the fact that they are not very good at achieving things. In EVE Online all one has to do to gain skills is pay a monthly fee...the rest is done for you; your character gains skills whether you're AFK eating, sleeping, pooping, flunking Algabra, surfing porn, touching yourself, posting replies on MMORPG.com, etc., etc....

That's the way the Sandbox people like it...no challange! Sandbox people say that Level based games "hold your hand" but I say sandbox games "pick you up and carry you!".

Originally posted by poopypants

Sandbox people are non/low achievers...they like the no-level aspect of "sandbox" MMOGs because it hides the fact that they are not very good at achieving things. In EVE Online all one has to do to gain skills is pay a monthly fee...the rest is done for you; your character gains skills whether you're AFK eating, sleeping, pooping, flunking Algabra, surfing porn, touching yourself, posting replies on MMORPG.com, etc., etc....

 

That's the way the Sandbox people like it...no challange! Sandbox people say that Level based games "hold your hand" but I say sandbox games "pick you up and carry you!".

 

 

If you name achieve next level a challenge . All you have write can be true only for some level based MMOs but not for sandbox. On WoW release I have leveled to 60 for something like 45 RL days. Thats just a joke to achive level cap for such short time. In any other sandbox mmo it will take you times much more to achive the stat/skill caps. The real challenge come in Sandbox where nothing is predefined and surprise and challenge is everywhere. Thats what ppls do not like in sandbox: they really have to think and know what to do in such game .

Originally posted by iZakaroN

Originally posted by poopypants

Sandbox people are non/low achievers...they like the no-level aspect of "sandbox" MMOGs because it hides the fact that they are not very good at achieving things. In EVE Online all one has to do to gain skills is pay a monthly fee...the rest is done for you; your character gains skills whether you're AFK eating, sleeping, pooping, flunking Algabra, surfing porn, touching yourself, posting replies on MMORPG.com, etc., etc....

 

That's the way the Sandbox people like it...no challange! Sandbox people say that Level based games "hold your hand" but I say sandbox games "pick you up and carry you!".

 

 

 

If you name achieve next level a challenge . All you have write can be true only for some level based MMOs but not for sandbox. On WoW release I have leveled to 60 for something like 45 RL days. Thats just a joke to achive level cap for such short time. In any other sandbox mmo it will take you times much more to achive the stat/skill caps. The real challenge come in Sandbox where nothing is predefined and surprise and challenge is everywhere. Thats what ppls do not like in sandbox: they really have to think and know what to do in such game .

The only thing I found challeging about EVE Online was trying to have fun!

Originally posted by Thunderous

How many times does this have to come up before people realize there is a good reason that sandboxes are rare?

Sandbox games require independent thinking and creativity.

Most gamers, as in most people in life, need their hands held.  Sandbox games typically throw you to the wolves and let you do whatever you want, most people are not built for that sort of thinking.

 this is the big point the .  wow has its fan bace of those who want defind content. for some we want a world where the players create the content. where players craft all the items. players build the citys. where dungons change. where we can remake our toon . with open skill bace. you know like  SWG wan sob sob im about to cry

To the OP i have NEVER heard any thing about players wanting linear games,so right there not sure what you getting at.

Number two,player driven economies NEVER work,they ALWAYS alienate new players down the road and ALWAYS become broken.The ONLY way a player driven economy can work is if you have zero RMT activity,witch i have yet to see happen.

Training what you want in a skill based system,is FAKE.It is not a skill system at all, it is just mathematics ,puting numbers into slots.In the end the chat gets spammed with all players asking what is the best build,and players all become the same.Another reason that system stinks is that your MMORPG title just got thrown out the window.There is no such thing as a class anymore,how would like to call every player i nthe game a HYBRID?I for one would like every player to be something different,not a chat full of spam asking "HOW SHOULD I MAKE MY PLAYER".If you have ever played FFXI,you would know that just because you have a class there is different ways to play it...example Dancer,Ninja,even redmage can play various roles.FFXI uses set classes but you can change your subclass anytime,and do have some realistic choices in weapons.

No matter what system is in place i do NOT want to see wizard built players weilding cannons or large swords,it looks out of place and ruins the whole theme of a game.It would be like putting a HEMI into a VOLVO,who in there right mind would do that?.

Back on the skill system again,i can guarantee you it gets real annoying fast,when you see CHAT spammed every 10 seconds by players asking where to put there skills numbers.I mean it takes almost zero thought,yet i still see it over and over in games.At least with set classes ,the noob chat spam is limited to "SO what class has the most damage",another pet peeve i have is seeing that in chat.

Originally posted by Impacatus

Yes, I know there have been a lot of sandbox threads lately, but I've always wondered about this.  Everyone says that most people prefer linear mmos to sandbox mmos, but I really don't understand why, if this is true.

Why wouldn't you want player interaction that goes beyond grouping?  Why wouldn't you want a dynamic player economy and politics that make players relevant to each other, that allow even people of different levels to play together?  Why wouldn't you want the challenge of having to play people instead of just numbers?

Why wouldn't you want to allow players to make non-combat skills their focus? 

What's so terrible about features like player housing and cities, or avatar customization?

Why do you like being forced to stick to the level appropriate zones instead of being allowed to go where you want?

What's so great about being forced to choose your class from a menu instead of just training what you want in a skill based system?

What do linear mmorpgs have that's incompatible with features like these?

Some of these questions are easy to answer.

Non combat skills, like fishing? Yea, those can be fun, and some games do add them. Usually there's some sort of crafting, and those are non-combat skills.

Avatar customization is good, and most players want it, and most devs know that and work on it.

There's nothing terrible about features like housing, but for players like myself, housing is a non issue. What can I do with a house? Decorate it? I have no desire to decorate a house. Keep stuff in it? Most games have a bank, and that works fine. I simply don't need a house in the game, it serves no purpose for me.

Level appropriate zones. Well, let's say there are mobs in the game that are powerful, and mobs that are weak. For example, in fantasy, let's say a wolf cub and a Dragon. In Sci Fi, let's say a storm trooper, and Darth Vader and hte Emperor.

Now, what if you start the game, and you can kill Darth Vader and the Emperor, or a Dragon? What's the point then, in ever fighting a wolf cub or a storm trooper? The game is over before it starts. I think you should work your way up, and not start at the top. That seems like common sense. You can't just go anywhere you want to, because you can't kill the Dragon, or Darth Vader when you start the game. If you can, then again, what's the point in going anywhere with lesser mobs? I just killed the Emperor. Now I should go fight some bounty hunters in Mos Esiley? Not likely, since I now rule the Galaxy.

The skills vs levels thing, is in my opinion, a red herring.

Both measure power level. I am a level 5 storm trooper. I have skill level 5 in laser pistol. Same thing.

If you can have every skill in the game, then all players are exactly the same. So instead of MORE diversity, it's actually less. Everyone will come up with the same template, and everyone will play that.

If you restrict skills, like you can only have so many, and the more melee skills you have the less healing skills you can have, then you're basically making classes anyway.

It's really not as much difference between skills and classes as people seem to think.

Originally posted by tfox2k1

First the people constantly asking for a sandbox game are proving they can't handle the sandbox concept.   Reason there are free style MMOs out right now.   Go and find them.   Eve Online, UO, and Second Life, all come to mind.

 

Second, the player base can't be trusted to control the economy and world.   They will screw it up.   A few who have far more time than the majority of the other players will control the market.   Real skill isn't involved the primary currency is time.    If you want a sand box economy go find one of those amazing stock market sim.   Prove you're capable of handling a skill based economy, not one based upon time spent.

 

Third, sandboxes failed in the MMO industry.   The player base has proven several times now with high profile games, SWG, SIMS Online, to name two that they can't handle a sandbox game.

Lastly, you can build your own sandbox in NWN.   If you're so creative and skilled, build a world in NWN and invite your friends to play it. 

 

So really, stop asking for a sandbox game, you can't handle it.

 

i find you post to be 90% on the money.

the few of us that can handle the "sandbox" type mmo is not the big numbers that game makers are looking for. that is  why the WOW frame work has taken over.

swg was NEG to get more player peple left because of lack of content. only the diehart stayed.

we are looking for navarna, utoipa, it cant be found.

Originally posted by Wizardry

...

Number two,player driven economies NEVER work,they ALWAYS alienate new players down the road and ALWAYS become broken.The ONLY way a player driven economy can work is if you have zero RMT activity,witch i have yet to see happen.

.....

So I guess EVE Online's player driven economy doesn't work at all??? This post makes absolutely no sense.. I'm not going to bother debunking the rest of your post because this point alone just takes it for me

EVE Online crafting is so well thought out, even Tech II items require the Tech I equivalent. Meaning? Young crafters goods sell on the market. Veterans regularly purchase items produced by new crafters. I know, I've been crafting Tech I items for over a year in EVE Online.

If you are going to try to trash a concept, please play the game in question that uses it past 5 seconds so you have some credibility

Why people want to post crazy stuff about non-EQ clones I have no idea. Some of us like variety in our soup you know

Originally posted by omni40

Originally posted by tfox2k1

First the people constantly asking for a sandbox game are proving they can't handle the sandbox concept.   Reason there are free style MMOs out right now.   Go and find them.   Eve Online, UO, and Second Life, all come to mind.

 

Second, the player base can't be trusted to control the economy and world.   They will screw it up.   A few who have far more time than the majority of the other players will control the market.   Real skill isn't involved the primary currency is time.    If you want a sand box economy go find one of those amazing stock market sim.   Prove you're capable of handling a skill based economy, not one based upon time spent.

 

Third, sandboxes failed in the MMO industry.   The player base has proven several times now with high profile games, SWG, SIMS Online, to name two that they can't handle a sandbox game.

Lastly, you can build your own sandbox in NWN.   If you're so creative and skilled, build a world in NWN and invite your friends to play it. 

 

So really, stop asking for a sandbox game, you can't handle it.

 

 

i find you post to be 90% on the money.

the few of us that can handle the "sandbox" type mmo is not the big numbers that game makers are looking for. that is  why the WOW frame work has taken over.

swg was NEG to get more player peple left because of lack of content. only the diehart stayed.

we are looking for navarna, utoipa, it cant be found.

That post was full of talk with no data to support his wild accusations. What failed was LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, DDO, City of Heroes, and the list goes on and on if we are talking pure subscriber data listed on MMO Charts. EVE Online has more subs then those and many more

And don't even discuss Second Life which has incredible yearly revenues.

If players cannot handle sandbox then I wonder why EVE Online has done so well- outgrossing countless EQ clones?

Could it be gamers actually like to see fresh new concepts every once in awhile? NOOOOOO! That can't be it right? Surely EVERYONE wants to play the same game over and over and over? I'm being sarcastic of course. I like to try different games and see new things

Anyway, if you want to say sandbox has failed then show me how eVE Online has failed. Show me how Second Life has failed. Show me hard data that excludes World of Warcraft of course. Any chart I have ever seen, EVE Online has taken the pie from linear mmorpgs. And I suspect it will of course take out Age of Conan once the remaining subscribers bounce in the next few months

---

Originally posted by omni40

---

Originally posted by tfox2k1

First the people constantly asking for a sandbox game are proving they can't handle the sandbox concept.   Reason there are free style MMOs out right now.   Go and find them.   Eve Online, UO, and Second Life, all come to mind.
 
Second, the player base can't be trusted to control the economy and world.   They will screw it up.   A few who have far more time than the majority of the other players will control the market.   Real skill isn't involved the primary currency is time.    If you want a sand box economy go find one of those amazing stock market sim.   Prove you're capable of handling a skill based economy, not one based upon time spent.
 
Third, sandboxes failed in the MMO industry.   The player base has proven several times now with high profile games, SWG, SIMS Online, to name two that they can't handle a sandbox game.

Lastly, you can build your own sandbox in NWN.   If you're so creative and skilled, build a world in NWN and invite your friends to play it. 
 
So really, stop asking for a sandbox game, you can't handle it.
 

---

 
i find you post to be 90% on the money.
the few of us that can handle the "sandbox" type mmo is not the big numbers that game makers are looking for. that is  why the WOW frame work has taken over.
swg was NEG to get more player peple left because of lack of content. only the diehart stayed.
we are looking for navarna, utoipa, it cant be found.

---

Sandbox to a point is great, but the community dictating everything only is attractive to the 2% of gamers that are hardcore and online 18 hours a day.

Currently the fans of this days mmorpg makes me sad.

They all want simple quick gameplay, they no longer want to invest time into a character and build friendships in game, spending five years in a game is unheard of in this day and age because of these people.

They all want to solo 99% of the time and never talk to anyone.

Once they find out a game requires grouping its deemed unworthy.

WoW has brought these people to us and it's killing the future of MMOs.

We will never again see a MMO like UO, SWg-pre cu, eve and now Ryzom.

Even a game that is new to a lot of people (ryzom) is getting a bad rep for requiring a group to fully explore.

The I have a real life crowd is really pathetic, you can play any mmo little by little if you have a RL.

I personally have a wife, full time job and four children and still get to play my 15-20+ hour a week MMO.

These instant gradification players need to GTFO! of my mmo.

Originally posted by PatchDay

Originally posted by Wizardry

...

Number two,player driven economies NEVER work,they ALWAYS alienate new players down the road and ALWAYS become broken.The ONLY way a player driven economy can work is if you have zero RMT activity,witch i have yet to see happen.

.....

 

So I guess EVE Online's player driven economy doesn't work at all??? This post makes absolutely no sense.. I'm not going to bother debunking the rest of your post because this point alone just takes it for me

EVE Online crafting is so well thought out, even Tech II items require the Tech I equivalent. Meaning? Young crafters goods sell on the market. Veterans regularly purchase items produced by new crafters. I know, I've been crafting Tech I items for over a year in EVE Online.

If you are going to try to trash a concept, please play the game in question that uses it past 5 seconds so you have some credibility

Why people want to post crazy stuff about non-EQ clones I have no idea. Some of us like variety in our soup you know

I played EVE Online for one month (I decided to forgo the free two weeks trail and plunge right in). I noticed three things about the game that I really loved: 1) almost no bugs/problems at all (I did get stuck in one of the exits from a base once...but I relogged and the problem was solved.), 2) the skill system is kinda cool, and 3) the economy seemed to be good and balanced.

Unfortunately there were several things that I absolutely hated: 1) being a ship sucks...bad!, 2) travel time in the game is beyond stupid!, 3) the game, at that time at least, was completely devoid of any meaningful content whatsoever! After "playing" the game for about a week and a half I found myself minimizing, more and more frequently, and surfing the interweb instead of playing. After three weeks I felt like a vampire had sucked all the energy from me after every little session...by that time I was only logging on to change skills. By the forth week I realized that the sandbox concept - as it was presented to me in EVE Online - was something I needed to fight hard against!

I just hope and pray that if they do make a Shadowrun MMOG it won't be anything like that nauseatingly awful EVE Online pos!

Originally posted by poopypants

Originally posted by PatchDay

Originally posted by Wizardry

...

Number two,player driven economies NEVER work,they ALWAYS alienate new players down the road and ALWAYS become broken.The ONLY way a player driven economy can work is if you have zero RMT activity,witch i have yet to see happen.

.....

 

So I guess EVE Online's player driven economy doesn't work at all??? This post makes absolutely no sense.. I'm not going to bother debunking the rest of your post because this point alone just takes it for me

EVE Online crafting is so well thought out, even Tech II items require the Tech I equivalent. Meaning? Young crafters goods sell on the market. Veterans regularly purchase items produced by new crafters. I know, I've been crafting Tech I items for over a year in EVE Online.

If you are going to try to trash a concept, please play the game in question that uses it past 5 seconds so you have some credibility

Why people want to post crazy stuff about non-EQ clones I have no idea. Some of us like variety in our soup you know

I played EVE Online for one month (I decided to forgo the free two weeks trail and plunge right in). I noticed three things about the game that I really loved: 1) almost no bugs/problems at all (I did get stuck in one of the exits from a base once...but I relogged and the problem was solved.), 2) the skill system is kinda cool, and 3) the economy seemed to be good and balanced.

 

Unfortunately there were several things that I absolutely hated: 1) being a ship sucks...bad!, 2) travel time in the game is beyond stupid!, 3) the game, at that time at least, was completely devoid of any meaningful content whatsoever! After "playing" the game for about a week and a half I found myself minimizing, more and more frequently, and surfing the interweb instead of playing. After three weeks I felt like a vampire had sucked all the energy from me after every little session...by that time I was only logging on to change skills. By the forth week I realized that the sandbox concept - as it was presented to me in EVE Online - was something I needed to fight hard against!

 

I just hope and pray that if they do make a Shadowrun MMOG it won't be anything like that nauseatingly awful EVE Online pos!

If you didn't like being in a spaceship 24/7 why did you keep playing that long?

Eve isn't for everyone saying its a PoS cause you didn't like being in a ships and there wasn't enough hand holding content is stupid imo.

DiD you join a corp? did you fleet up and pvp? or did you just solo 100% of the time and act all anti-social like the rest of the first time MMO wow players?

If you fly solo 100% of the time you wont last long in Eve.