Now I dont have any personal hate against WOW, nor is raiding and faction grinding genuine to WOW. But what WOW did, is making it part of a monetary succesful strategy, which unfortunately has now been copy-pasted into almost every MMO. Personally, I find these two things the most devious inventions since diet coke. Please let me elaborate.

First, and in short, faction grinding and raids are two things almost none would be interested to do by themselves, much unlike other MMO activities, like exploring a dungeon or playing a storyline. Raid and factions are a way of companies to get a maximum of playtime out of customers with the most minimal effort of investment. So for them its like the goose that lays golden eggs.

The idea is the same in both: you create very rare and very desirable items, be it uber gear, flying mounts or what, and make the way to reach them long. Now it has often been said that great gear SHOULD be difficult to get, and I fully agree with that idea. However, the unfortunate reality is, that neither faction grind nor endless raiding are challanging. The only thing that IS challanged is your tolerance towards repetitive gameplay. For a company like Blizzard or any other, its a miracle solution. They add something very cool, say a dragon mount you can fly, but limit it to 500k faction points. Then they distribute 2 types of mobs, copy paste them 200 times over a zone and make each kill 5 faction drop. Viola, now you can keep players for months and years, and the effort of the company is minimal. The only one who really benefits from this are the companies, because with the least effort they get the max of length people play their game. For the gamer it is a catastrophe. He has to kill thousands of the same mobs over and over and over. Its zero immersity, zero fun. Its like working at a conveyor belt pushing the same button over and over. And while such things are regarded as inhuman work conditions in RL, in MMOs they are widely used, and the most bizarre thing is, that gamers are now conditioned like Pavlovs dog to EXPECT such a mindless faction grind. One of the critic I often heard when AoC was new, that WOW-gamers bemoaned the LACK of faction grind.

It was the same once with the Jedi unlock in SWG. It wasnt a difficult series of quests, which told an elaborate story of trials and moral choices. No, it was a simple grind. Kill 10000 of this and 10000 of that. I vividly recall how deeply dissapointed I was back then, when Jedi unlock was revealed. It had ZERO to do with being a Jedi, and it was merely about being an uber butcher, a big fauna decimator. But even more convoluting than the fact those grinds exist is the fact that some people defend it and and claim it would be joyful! Or challanging.

The other, evenly devious idea WOW spread like a virus, is raiding. Now let me say it clearly, I have a violent, passionate hate towards raids. For me it is the anathema of everything a MMO should be. A MMO is the further development of pen and paper games like D&D. Its about people meeting friends and going to an adventure-story. Instead of only reading a SciFi or Fantasy book, you take part in an adventure. Now having been in a raid guild, I know 90% of all people doing raids hate them, or at best see them as necessary evil.

What is a raid? A raid is the idea, that some rare items drop from bosses who need a MASS of players to kill. Now of course there is only one drop, or few, so the vast majority of people partaking the raid usually get nothing at the end. Thats where the deviousness gets in. its like the addiction of someone using a slot-machine. He puts more and more and more coins into it, always hoping someday he will get the luck to win. Its a sick way to conditioning people. In the end people go through the same raids dozens of times over and over to get "their" shoulder pads or flying mount or whatever. Such types of raid are entirely devoid of any immersion or value, its just prolonging the people's subscription with the minimal effort of the developers.

The bad results are twofold. First, it has started to condition people's perception. Many MMO players in these days regard mindless grind as difficulty, as challange. Instead of interesting story-driven questlines they seek the repetitive behaviour of the proverbial hamster in the wheel. And second, it has created a two class society of gamers, those who join big raid guilds and get the best, and those who prefer small, family style networks and will always be second best. Their PERSONAL achievements have no longer value, but only a certain playstyle, which allows companies to milk customers the longest possible time with the least effort.

Did WOW invent this? No. But they perfected it, they expanded it in such a hidious way, that now every MMO is copying this. Even the once as "anti-WOW" designed Vanguard has added their flying mounts and high end gear to raids only now. From a perspective of commerce this apparently pays off. For a player it means a further development downwards to lack of immersity and lack of complexity. In the bottom line its a witness how little developers these days regard their own customers, and its a joke to see how many people today now are conditioned to actually SEEK suck mindless ways of entertainment. It is, in the long run, the death of immersive and sophisticated MMO gaming. For why should companies invest much into vast, immersive worlds, when a few vast grind-mills of faction grind and raid repetition are sufficient to keep players?

This was done before Warcraft.  Everquest had a lot larger grinds to get items and faction.

In regards to why they don't make getting things through a difficult quest is because they can't create content quickly enough to satisy the people who play all the time.  This is a known fact and why MMOs have always put in large time sinks at the end of games.  It gives the people who want to just mindlessly play the game during most of their lives something to do.

Ah, a new recruit for the rebellion.  Join us Yunbei.  Some of us have been fighting against this design philosophy since the days of EQ 1.  Of course, all you can do is make a little noise once in a while to let developers know that there are people out there who refuse to put up with that crap.  Also, don't buy games that devolve into raid grinds at the end.

But, you know, some sort of grinding is probably unavoidable in a progression game.  The important thing is whether or not the form the grinding takes is entertaining or just mind numbingly boring.  If you have fun doing it it doesn't feel so much like grinding.  But raiding...raiding is just painfully un-fun.

That depends on the raiding.  Warhammer has made it fun to raid IMO.  Mostly because it starts early in the game and doesn't require having to actually join the raid.  You just have to be in the area and participate in the public quest.

Smaller "raidable" dungeons featuring a challenge that is more like a puzzle than that of killing a mob would in my opinion be what raiding should be like. The massive 40-man raids where you go the same place, do the same things with the same people are hard to organize and just trying to make grinding fun by forcing 39 other people to come and help you. The core of the problem, I think, is gear dependency; not only does it force you to grind for certain gear it also causes big differences between players depending on how much they've farmed for their equipment.

Another problem may be that of what to do once you reach the max level; for a PvP focused game the answer is simple - PvP, but for a PvE focused one you have to in some way make players keep playing PvE and that's no easy feat. Grinding is in that aspect an easy way to make players keep on playing without ever really growing bored.

What truly shows how... terribly the WoW community has became when it comes to questioning Blizzard is one thing you didn't really mention: dailies. It's easy and it's clever; provide players with 25 quests that can be done every day and you got them occupied for an eternity! Not only do you now farm the same mobs you also do the same quests, and has thus given up the last thing that wasn't really a big fucking repetition. Quests were usually quite mindless but they were at least different in some ways; not they're not any more. And it saddens me greatly that people do the same thing every day over and over, as if it was your second job only that this one you need to pay for.

Originally posted by Godliest

What truly shows how... terribly the WoW community has became when it comes to questioning Blizzard is one thing you didn't really mention: dailies. It's easy and it's clever; provide players with 25 quests that can be done every day and you got them occupied for an eternity! Not only do you now farm the same mobs you also do the same quests, and has thus given up the last thing that wasn't really a big fucking repetition. Quests were usually quite mindless but they were at least different in some ways; not they're not any more. And it saddens me greatly that people do the same thing every day over and over, as if it was your second job only that this one you need to pay for.

Hmm, yeah, I have to say something about that.  It's probably a good thing I don't play WoW or I'd have a new thing to bitch about.  But I do have a friend who plays WoW and I talk to him about it and sometimes when I'm at his place I watch him playing WoW a little.

So one day he told me about those daily quests and I was like, "Huh?  You mean you run the exact same quest every day?"

He said, "No, not the same one every day.  There are a few different ones."

Me:  "But you just keep doing those same few quests over and over again?  Going through the exact same motions in the same sequence in the same place over and over every day?"

Him:  "Yes."

Me:  "My God, how can you stand to do that?"

Him: "I don't know, I need to do it."

Me:  <<<<backing away slowly while looking at the back of his head to see if I can see the scars from the brain surgery when they implanted the control chip in his head>>>.

Seriously, what the hell is that?  Who in their right mind would do that to themselves?

As an ex WoW player i have to say WoW was one of my favorite games to play. to me it sounds like you just wanted to do raids to get gear and be "uber". to me i love Raiding in games, cause to me its a good way to get together with friends in a guild and go kill bosses and the loot is just a plus. and you say raiding isnt challenging? HAH. is that why it took my guild almost a month and a half just to get past Karazhan and get it on farm status? raiding takes alot of strategy and coordination. And since Burning crusade came out raids are much smaller so your chances of getting loot increases alot.  Also yeah it sucks when someone else in a raid gets something over you. but it depends on how your guild distributes the loot. my guild gave out the loot to the ones who needed it most. so say you have an epic sword and some other guy only has a Rare sword. and a really Nice epic sword drops and both of you want it. the guy with the blue sword has priority. Do you really have a right to complain. To me it was fair so when ever i lost loot to someone else i said Grats to the guy that won and kept on playing the game. But that was just the way my guild did things, and every guild is different. also you dont have to raid to get good gear, you can do PvP in the game, or you can also do arenas and get really good pvp gear. yeah all this takes time but to me thats a good thing. cause i dont wanna walk around and see every single person in really good gear and all looking the same.  and to get faction rep you can just kill mobs, or you can do daily quests and get lots of money from doing so along with the rep. to me it just sounds like your an impatient little kid that wants to get all his gear really quickly with no effort. im not gonna say i had fun all the time while i raided and quested for faction rep, but it in the end it all payed off. i play games to have fun, and i had fun while playing WoW. I no longer play WoW do to Real life issues and if i could i would go back to the game and play right now. So stop your bitchin about grinds cause there isnt a single game out there with absolutly no grind what so ever. and game developers copy WoW cause look at its success, its the most played MMORPG out there. if you dont like the game dont play it. yeah WoW is designed to keep players playing. but isnt that what every game developer wants, to get money in his pocket?

Originally posted by Yunbei

Now I dont have any personal hate against WOW, nor is raiding and faction grinding genuine to WOW. But what WOW did, is making it part of a monetary succesful strategy, which unfortunately has now been copy-pasted into almost every MMO. Personally, I find these two things the most devious inventions since diet coke. Please let me elaborate.

First, and in short, faction grinding and raids are two things almost none would be interested to do by themselves, much unlike other MMO activities, like exploring a dungeon or playing a storyline. Raid and factions are a way of companies to get a maximum of playtime out of customers with the most minimal effort of investment. So for them its like the goose that lays golden eggs.

Well, speak for yourself. I would not explore an MMORPG dungeon by myself, and I never read the crappy story lines, since they don't change the game world in any way.

Go kill the wolves in Glendale, because if you don't they will overrun the town, and kill all the townspeople.

If you don't kill the wolves will they really overrun the town and kill all the townspeople? No. So why do I care about the story, or lore, or anything else? I don't.

Originally posted by Neanderthal

Ah, a new recruit for the rebellion.  Join us Yunbei.  Some of us have been fighting against this design philosophy since the days of EQ 1.  Of course, all you can do is make a little noise once in a while to let developers know that there are people out there who refuse to put up with that crap.  Also, don't buy games that devolve into raid grinds at the end.

But, you know, some sort of grinding is probably unavoidable in a progression game.  The important thing is whether or not the form the grinding takes is entertaining or just mind numbingly boring.  If you have fun doing it it doesn't feel so much like grinding.  But raiding...raiding is just painfully un-fun.

So true. And I'd like to join the rebellion aswell. I refuse to play these kind of games. People are not robots! Most of us anyway... I hope.

rename wow world of grindcraft they always find new ways to grind be it honor points,arena point,primal airs, primal waters,primal fire,rep grinds,exp,killing a monster be it for a special kind if loot for crafting, loot, and now the new one daily quest grind,etc

WOW is Not Fun....

Originally posted by Yunbei

Now I dont have any personal hate against WOW, nor is raiding and faction grinding genuine to WOW. But what WOW did, is making it part of a monetary succesful strategy, which unfortunately has now been copy-pasted into almost every MMO. Personally, I find these two things the most devious inventions since diet coke. Please let me elaborate.

First, and in short, faction grinding and raids are two things almost none would be interested to do by themselves, much unlike other MMO activities, like exploring a dungeon or playing a storyline. Raid and factions are a way of companies to get a maximum of playtime out of customers with the most minimal effort of investment. So for them its like the goose that lays golden eggs.

Factions, or Reputation for me started in Everquest. It allowed you to pick a side persay, and no one needed to pick the same factions. An Ogre could ally with Halflings, a Human could ally with the Drows, its added depth and a realism to the world.

World of Warcraft used it as a game mechanic to add to the ways someone work for unique goals not everyone shared. I really disliked the way WoW ruined the faction system i had come to love in EQ.

The idea is the same in both: you create very rare and very desirable items, be it uber gear, flying mounts or what, and make the way to reach them long. Now it has often been said that great gear SHOULD be difficult to get, and I fully agree with that idea. However, the unfortunate reality is, that neither faction grind nor endless raiding are challanging. The only thing that IS challanged is your tolerance towards repetitive gameplay. For a company like Blizzard or any other, its a miracle solution. They add something very cool, say a dragon mount you can fly, but limit it to 500k faction points. Then they distribute 2 types of mobs, copy paste them 200 times over a zone and make each kill 5 faction drop. Viola, now you can keep players for months and years, and the effort of the company is minimal. The only one who really benefits from this are the companies, because with the least effort they get the max of length people play their game. For the gamer it is a catastrophe. He has to kill thousands of the same mobs over and over and over. Its zero immersity, zero fun. Its like working at a conveyor belt pushing the same button over and over. And while such things are regarded as inhuman work conditions in RL, in MMOs they are widely used, and the most bizarre thing is, that gamers are now conditioned like Pavlovs dog to EXPECT such a mindless faction grind. One of the critic I often heard when AoC was new, that WOW-gamers bemoaned the LACK of faction grind.

It was the same once with the Jedi unlock in SWG. It wasnt a difficult series of quests, which told an elaborate story of trials and moral choices. No, it was a simple grind. Kill 10000 of this and 10000 of that. I vividly recall how deeply dissapointed I was back then, when Jedi unlock was revealed. It had ZERO to do with being a Jedi, and it was merely about being an uber butcher, a big fauna decimator. But even more convoluting than the fact those grinds exist is the fact that some people defend it and and claim it would be joyful! Or challanging.

The other, evenly devious idea WOW spread like a virus, is raiding. Now let me say it clearly, I have a violent, passionate hate towards raids. For me it is the anathema of everything a MMO should be. A MMO is the further development of pen and paper games like D&D. Its about people meeting friends and going to an adventure-story. Instead of only reading a SciFi or Fantasy book, you take part in an adventure. Now having been in a raid guild, I know 90% of all people doing raids hate them, or at best see them as necessary evil.

Again, Raiding in EQ was a blast! Not obtainable by everyone, and rather confusing to get acquainted with. Blizzard tried to take the best parts of EQ raiding and streamline it and make it more readily available to everyone. Which i think they have done. And continue to do with Lich King by making all the raid content available in a 10 man format. Which broadens the audience that want to enjoy these types of encounters.

What is a raid? A raid is the idea, that some rare items drop from bosses who need a MASS of players to kill. Now of course there is only one drop, or few, so the vast majority of people partaking the raid usually get nothing at the end. Thats where the deviousness gets in. its like the addiction of someone using a slot-machine. He puts more and more and more coins into it, always hoping someday he will get the luck to win. Its a sick way to conditioning people. In the end people go through the same raids dozens of times over and over to get "their" shoulder pads or flying mount or whatever. Such types of raid are entirely devoid of any immersion or value, its just prolonging the people's subscription with the minimal effort of the developers.

The gear grind is a state of mind. Its the "keeping up with the Jones" illness. Many people suffer from it. You should be deriving your enjoyment from completing a difficult task with your friends, not what gear you get. Again, in Everquest, you might do an encounter 50 times and never see anything drop worth wild. Warcraft just streamlined it and made the items more available and easier to obtain. Which in turn makes people want it all the more. If you didn't expect to get the item, you would have more fun in the encounter then just seeing it as a hurdle between you and the gear you want.

Making the gear drops so common and easy in Warcraft is what ruined the spirit of raiding, for me at least. I've been in a few guilds that were torn apart by "loot".... I never understood it, and never will. Guild i'm in now, every person could careless about the gear, its just a bonus. Doing the content together as a group is what we derive are enjoyment from, using fraps, taking lots of pictures and posting them on our website, making fun of each other... Everyone of us would disenchant our favorite item for a fellow member. Because frankly, good friends are harder to find in Warcraft then Epic Items.

The bad results are twofold. First, it has started to condition people's perception. Many MMO players in these days regard mindless grind as difficulty, as challange. Instead of interesting story-driven questlines they seek the repetitive behaviour of the proverbial hamster in the wheel. And second, it has created a two class society of gamers, those who join big raid guilds and get the best, and those who prefer small, family style networks and will always be second best. Their PERSONAL achievements have no longer value, but only a certain playstyle, which allows companies to milk customers the longest possible time with the least effort.

Did WOW invent this? No. But they perfected it, they expanded it in such a hidious way, that now every MMO is copying this. Even the once as "anti-WOW" designed Vanguard has added their flying mounts and high end gear to raids only now. From a perspective of commerce this apparently pays off. For a player it means a further development downwards to lack of immersity and lack of complexity. In the bottom line its a witness how little developers these days regard their own customers, and its a joke to see how many people today now are conditioned to actually SEEK suck mindless ways of entertainment. It is, in the long run, the death of immersive and sophisticated MMO gaming. For why should companies invest much into vast, immersive worlds, when a few vast grind-mills of faction grind and raid repetition are sufficient to keep players?

I do agree that Warcraft caters to the darker parts of a humans spirit. I loved your gambling reference because Casino's do exactly the same thing. They target a human weakness and exploit it. You must find the strength and maturity in yourself to overcome these lures if you want to enjoy a product like that. I walk out of the Greektown Casino with $20-50 dollars more in my pocket then i walked in almost every time i've been there. Why? Self control. I don't let them tell me how to play, i set my own rules and follow them.

Same thing exists inside these games. Don't let others tell you how to enjoy it and ruin a potentially awesome experience for yourself. Find out what you enjoy, and play by your rules.

Until a game comes out that caters to your specific likes and dislikes better then whats on the market now.

Its a god damn game!

It can't be evil. If you dont like, dont play it.

Its a lot better then old days in Anarchy Online where you might sit around waiting for 2 hours for a mob to spawn, then you have to outdamage about 20 other people in a few seconds. If you dont, well you get to wait another 2 hours.

I like a mindless grind sometimes, I have to think all day at work. I like to come home, smoke some weed, and just coast through something online.

Wait, if you don't want to raid, then why do you need the items?  It's circular isn't it?

If you don't like raiding and faction grinding, then don't do them.  No one is forcing you to do them.  It's that simple.

I am in total agreement with the OP.

I did, for the most part, enjoy Wow up to the top level, which is when the game starts to suck.

I yearn for the day when an MMO will come out that lets me experience (and benefit from!) endgame PvE content without forcing me to group or raid.    A few games permit this somewhat (GW, CoH), but why do so many games make it so you can only get the best gear through grouping?

WOW did start raid lockout timers which makes raiding more complicated and hassle then it needs to be. WOW made raiding a job by forcing people to guild together only out of necessity just to achieve same goals. WOW fragmented the playerbase which stifled the ability for less experienced to grow as players.

Originally posted by SwampRob

I am in total agreement with the OP.

I did, for the most part, enjoy Wow up to the top level, which is when the game starts to suck.

I yearn for the day when an MMO will come out that lets me experience (and benefit from!) endgame PvE content without forcing me to group or raid.    A few games permit this somewhat (GW, CoH), but why do so many games make it so you can only get the best gear through grouping?

Again, I ask the question:  Why don't you just stop playing when you run out of things you like to do?  No game can be all things to all people.

Faction grinding is one of the worst things in MMO, incredible boring and rarely challenging.

Raids can be fun sometimes but if you do them to often it's just boring too. So yeah, I basicly agrees with the OP about those 2 things.

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by SwampRob

I am in total agreement with the OP.

I did, for the most part, enjoy Wow up to the top level, which is when the game starts to suck.

I yearn for the day when an MMO will come out that lets me experience (and benefit from!) endgame PvE content without forcing me to group or raid.    A few games permit this somewhat (GW, CoH), but why do so many games make it so you can only get the best gear through grouping?

 

Again, I ask the question:  Why don't you just stop playing when you run out of things you like to do?  No game can be all things to all people.

I do.   But it pisses me off that I have to.   I have enjoyed the game up to the top level, and suddenly what I must do to progress further radically changes?   Must it be so?    Can't I at least continue to improve my character in ways other than experience points?

Its as if people think its actually possible for any developer to create enough content so you could play forever.  Welcome to the genre.   The ALL run out of content and they ALL get repetitive.  Some just get boring a whole lot sooner than others.   ALl you can hope for is that it stays fun for as long as possible.  Blizzard understood this better than others and did a much better job.  Thats why millions play and only a handfull by comparison play other MMOs.

Originally posted by Josher

Its as if people think its actually possible for any developer to create enough content so you could play forever.  Welcome to the genre.   The ALL run out of content and they ALL get repetitive.  Some just get boring a whole lot sooner than others.   ALl you can hope for is that it stays fun for as long as possible.  Blizzard understood this better than others and did a much better job.  Thats why millions play and only a handfull by comparison play other MMOs.

Not really, content is practically limitless. The only thing holding it back is, A. Lack of imagination, and B. The current technology.

Originally posted by SwampRob

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by SwampRob

I am in total agreement with the OP.

I did, for the most part, enjoy Wow up to the top level, which is when the game starts to suck.

I yearn for the day when an MMO will come out that lets me experience (and benefit from!) endgame PvE content without forcing me to group or raid.    A few games permit this somewhat (GW, CoH), but why do so many games make it so you can only get the best gear through grouping?

 

Again, I ask the question:  Why don't you just stop playing when you run out of things you like to do?  No game can be all things to all people.

I do.   But it pisses me off that I have to.   I have enjoyed the game up to the top level, and suddenly what I must do to progress further radically changes?   Must it be so?    Can't I at least continue to improve my character in ways other than experience points?

There are tons of things you can do in WoW to improve your character after you hit the cap that don't involve raiding or faction grinding.

1.  PVP

2.  Non-raid instances

3.  Daily Quests

4.  Other quests for money so you can buy better gear.

At some point you'll do everything there is to do to the point where there's nothing left.  Raiding is only a small part of that.

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by SwampRob

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by SwampRob

I am in total agreement with the OP.

I did, for the most part, enjoy Wow up to the top level, which is when the game starts to suck.

I yearn for the day when an MMO will come out that lets me experience (and benefit from!) endgame PvE content without forcing me to group or raid.    A few games permit this somewhat (GW, CoH), but why do so many games make it so you can only get the best gear through grouping?

 

Again, I ask the question:  Why don't you just stop playing when you run out of things you like to do?  No game can be all things to all people.

I do.   But it pisses me off that I have to.   I have enjoyed the game up to the top level, and suddenly what I must do to progress further radically changes?   Must it be so?    Can't I at least continue to improve my character in ways other than experience points?

 

There are tons of things you can do in WoW to improve your character after you hit the cap that don't involve raiding or faction grinding.

1.  PVP

2.  Non-raid instances

3.  Daily Quests

4.  Other quests for money so you can buy better gear.

At some point you'll do everything there is to do to the point where there's nothing left.  Raiding is only a small part of that.

1. I hate pvp

2. There's almost no gear I can get from an instance that would be an upgrade for any of my 70s.

3. Gain you what?   Gold and a very small chance at a badge.

4. I suppose I could grind for a zillion hours to spend 1500g or more gold on a single item that is a marginal upgrade.   GG Blizzard with soulbinding nearly every single raid drop.

How about an MMO that offers me a way to progress my char through solo PvE?   You know, like I was able to do for the 70 levels that got me here?

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by SwampRob

I am in total agreement with the OP.

I did, for the most part, enjoy Wow up to the top level, which is when the game starts to suck.

I yearn for the day when an MMO will come out that lets me experience (and benefit from!) endgame PvE content without forcing me to group or raid.    A few games permit this somewhat (GW, CoH), but why do so many games make it so you can only get the best gear through grouping?

 

Again, I ask the question:  Why don't you just stop playing when you run out of things you like to do?  No game can be all things to all people.

I did stop play  WOW when I saw how retarded the endgame was gonna be. I'm glad some other people besides me notice how stupid raiding is and need for top gear. MMO games need to brinng back the fun and and social aspect of games. Which is why I fell in love with mmo games was cool to meet interesting people from all over and just have fun, not spending forever to do something.

Originally posted by SwampRob 

How about an MMO that offers me a way to progress my char through solo PvE?   You know, like I was able to do for the 70 levels that got me here?

 

Wait, you mean you want to grind the same quests that you did for months to get to 70?   Let's face it.  You beat the game.  It has to end somewhere, and for you, it ended when you hit 70.   Wait for the expansion and play something else in the meantime.

Maybe you ought to try Oblivion., or one of those other MMOs out there with infinite content.

I love you Yunbei!  If I wasn't a heterosexual man I would have your babies! 

I jsut wholehearted agree with this post.  HOWVER, it is a very neccessary evil, because people pay $15 a month for gameplay, and when the content runs out they don't want to have their $15 wasted.  People also don't want to keep resuscribing.  Kids don't want to have to convince their parents again to renew the subscription, because their game got more stuff.  

So to keep people busy till the next big content patch are grinds and raids.

You forgot to mention some other bad things.  The extremely long raids that Blizzard has introduced.  You can no longer run a raid in one day, unless you plan to spend 6 hours doing so.  So most raids have to be devided up during the week.  The instance is set on a timer which will reset it for your character, and his teammates, within 1 week.  This may sound good but is has started something I can't stand.  SCHEDULING RAIDS ON FORUMS.

Scheduled raids squash out the casual players like me, who just hop in, join a guild group and raid something.  You can't do that now, you have to sign up for the raid at the guild forums.  You have to be present at a specific time.  Then, if possible, you have to be available for the second run to finish the raid you started within that week.  I don't have that kind of free time to schedule my gaming like that.

The need for items in large raids also produced ridiculous point systems setup by guilds.  So frequent raiders can save up points and use them to get the loot they want due to their "repeated" participation in raids.

Daily quest are pretty bad, but it is a much needed quick fix to general faction grinding.  At least things change a bit during a quest.  At least you can re experience some of your favorite type of quest as you burn time to gain gold or faction.  It is bad, but it is much more tolerable than just killing Timbermaul bears over and over.

What I do like, is the use of daily quest to help unlock server wide vendors and buffs.  the Sunwell content, was very fun as a server worked towards opening up special vendors and services b completely daily quest and running through the instances in the area.  Warhammer's whole system is somewhat based on this.  Their public quest are basically daily quest that you repeat every 10 minutes to earn faction points.

Edit:  I forgot to mention that in a 40 man raid, only 5 people are doing anything of significance.  the rest are mindless drones pressing 2 buttons when told to.