A caster / archmage standing face to face, whit tanks. And even taking some of then out ?????


Tell me is that how the rest of this story goes. Now casters not only own you if the have range, but allso in close combat ?????

http://files.filefront.com/Talvas+War+Previewwmv/;11587400;/fileinfo.html

I love how players have something against casters, plz dont cry,or else mystic will do what funcom did, they will start messing with the classes and F&^% everything up....shhhhh

Actually the healers in WAR have a huge advantage right now. They are very hard to kill and can dish out damage.

For example, If you are a caster like the sorc and you start launching dps at them, the cast time for the doombolt is 3 seconds, which is enough time for a healer to get quite a bit of their health back and even start an attack on you. I have gone 1 on 1 with an archmage a few times using a sorc, if both the sorc and the archmage were skilled, the archmage will win every time.

On my DoK i can solo not only champion mobs and other players fairly easy because all it takes is HoT 1 + heal #2, attack for awhile and repeat. The only way you go down is if you get zerged.

I base everything off skilled players, a lot of the time you will fight a bad pvper in which case the above doesnt always happen.

Okay, I see a couple things going on here. First, let me say this: "tank" is not a euphemism for "beat everyone solo."

1) He's a healer. He's wearing down his opponents through attrition, and by out-healing the low DPS on him. He's not doing extreme amounts of burst damage on anyone-- there's time for repeated exchange of blows. That's how healers have an advantage over classes that can't heal; they outlast them.

2) He's actually healing his teammates in PVP and you can see how effective that is when the group works together.

In short: looks fine to me.

Edit: also note that most of the opponents he goes 1v1 with are 4 levels lower than he is.

Class balance is far from being done.  the flow of battle it something Mythic wanted to preserve. To not have combat be done in 2 shots or 5 seconds.  I think all dps needs a small boost. Healers have the small advantage right now but that will be addressed I'm sure. So far they have been doing smaller changes and trying not to have the huge pendelum swings in balance leading to the class or mastery of the month.

Another point is that a toon with full green gear will completely own a person with out  gear even with a couple levels on them. Since gear is not apperantly visable early on use this rule of thumb. Untill level 12 or so if they have a cloak shoulders and a helm and you do not you are way overmatched.

The largest problem I see is heals when compared to damage. every healing class can dump out 100+ heals by rank 3 or 4. They can all also stack a massive HoT with those instant or very fast cast heals. Melee classes can not hope to overcome those easily as you wont be hitting for 100+ consistently until past level 10 or so. Ranged classes can see those numbers but the attack time is significantly slower like 2-3 seconds. In 2-3 Seconds the healers can drop a HoT and 1 or 2 heals depending on the class.

Also many of the healers are quite capable of throwing in attacks while they heal meaning they can just slowly beat down and drop any other class that comes face to face with them without backup.

Problem is if they lessen heals or increase melee DPS damage it will become impossible to keep your tanks healed up for any noticable amount of time in large RVR battles.

Anyhow, heres hoping that they can think of something.

This is not Mythic's strong point, I'm sorry to say.

It seems they have always had severe issues with trying to balance ranged and melee.

This is one reason I think that, in the end, it is going to be better for classes to be good at both.  Of course some classes will excel more at ranged, but not by large amounts.  This is the only way I can see these class based games getting closer to balance.

It's been said a hundred times, the game is balanced for RvR, not 1 on 1. No where do I see in the game where they expect you to 1 on 1, it is balanced around larger battles and to me it seems to work really well. Sometimes destruction wins, sometimes order wins. Normally based on who has healers and tanks and a good setup for ranged DPS that is out of harms way. There might be some slight balance issues but overall the balance is quite good.

This is true.

It is an RvR game, but people in general want to have a chance against someone else. 

I personally hate the rock/paper/scissors form of balance that most of these games follow.

Originally posted by vardar

I love how players have something against casters, plz dont cry,or else mystic will do what funcom did, they will start messing with the classes and F&^% everything up....shhhhh

No, they won't.

The difference is simple, Mythic has developers with three digit IQs and working brains, FunCon can barely scrape up PR staff that are more intelligent than a glass of water and there dev team is the equivalent of a poo flinging primate at your local zoo.

No contest.

The best way to balance an MMO is to make it unbalanced. Now just hear me out here. Take SWG for example, a fine original skill based game(once upon a time). The game was unbalanced in the sense that, up close Rifle uses were dead before they could get a few shots off. The same, as pistol users far away didnt stand a chance. It was unfair and unbalanced, but in a skill based game it makes you think and go "O well if im going to be fighting Rifle users all the time, then im picking up a rifle". Thats the glory of skill based, if something is not fair or going your way, you make it go your way, by choosing the skills you need.

Advantage of WAR or any other level based PvP game, is there is a balance all the way through the game from 1-whatever in pvp. At LEAST! this is how its supposed to be, as I have still yet to play WAR I can not judge on my own, but I watched a good hand full of PvP videos last night, and I must say the PvP looked entralling, had a grand scale, and seemed balanced from the Witch Hunters perspective I was wathcing. I will go grab the link for you all to view, and see if you make the same assesment.

Originally posted by slippyC

but people in general want to have a chance against someone else. 

 

Being outplayed doesn't mean the chance never existed, just that the player failed to grasp the opportunity for victory when it came.

Losing is part of the game, learn how to win, makes things alot more entertaining.

Originally posted by vardar

I love how players have something against casters, plz dont cry,or else mystic will do what funcom did, they will start messing with the classes and F&^% everything up....shhhhh

Hello professor, please make us a game!

The problem is you guys aren't following the rock/paper/scissors structure. I hear a lot of complaints about how healers are hard to take down. Well, the reason is that the only class well equipped to take out healers are the melee dps, such as the witch, witch hunter, and marauder. They are the only ones who can put out the kind of DPS that could take out a healer solo. Any of the others will have to gang up on the healer and even then have a tough time of it. That's how it was designed. As a tank, don't expect to take out much solo, unless you get them by surprise and catch them close. Ranged DPS is the best against tanks. Sorry, but that's how it is. Tanks are supposed to be good against melee dps, which is the point. Tanks protect the healers.

For all you guys complaining about not being able to take so-and-so out, look at what you're doing vs. what you're supposed to be doing. Now, as a Witch Hunter, I can take out tanks, given the right circumstances, which is generally catch them with my stealth, use my ability to make them self-damage for 50 each time they try to hit me and then just rape them. But if I don't get that ability off, they will usually rape me, because I don't have near the armor/hp they do. But healers? I can take them out pretty handily. I took down a DoK pretty handily, and he even healed himself up to full once with his morale ability. Still didn't help him. Shamans and Zealots are the same story. Sorcerers don't even stand a chance once I get close, and my stealth ability means I can get close more often than not.

Originally posted by Roosevelt

The best way to balance an MMO is to make it unbalanced. Now just hear me out here. Take SWG for example, a fine original skill based game(once upon a time). The game was unbalanced in the sense that, up close Rifle uses were dead before they could get a few shots off. The same, as pistol users far away didnt stand a chance. It was unfair and unbalanced, but in a skill based game it makes you think and go "O well if im going to be fighting Rifle users all the time, then im picking up a rifle". Thats the glory of skill based, if something is not fair or going your way, you make it go your way, by choosing the skills you need.

Advantage of WAR or any other level based PvP game, is there is a balance all the way through the game from 1-whatever in pvp. At LEAST! this is how its supposed to be, as I have still yet to play WAR I can not judge on my own, but I watched a good hand full of PvP videos last night, and I must say the PvP looked entralling, had a grand scale, and seemed balanced from the Witch Hunters perspective I was wathcing. I will go grab the link for you all to view, and see if you make the same assesment.

That's the problem right there, this is not a skill based game.  In the skill based game you can find your own balance to what you want to play.  Like you were saying, you just pick up some skills from a different skillset  to help counter some of the problems you have.  You can compensate for the lack of short range defense. 

In these class based games, you are pretty much either ranged or melee.  That is why I believe in order to balance this, there doesn't need to be sweeping damage differences between ranged and melee.  Have a caster where he does more damage at range, but not by much.  Have the caster where he does more damage at close range, but he is still a little squisher than a tank.  Or you could mix it up by having higher def buffs for close range on a caster and do slightly lower dmg.

Anyway, I think you see where I'm going with this.

Originally posted by CreepingDoom

Originally posted by slippyC

but people in general want to have a chance against someone else. 

 

 

Being outplayed doesn't mean the chance never existed, just that the player failed to grasp the opportunity for victory when it came.

Losing is part of the game, learn how to win, makes things alot more entertaining.

I don't prefer that style of gameplay. 

Being outplayed has nothing to do with it in a rock/paper/scissors setup.  It doesn't depend on you, it depends on a group, which they could have screwed up and not you.  Also under a good many circumstances you aren't going to have an optimal group to be balanced between healing, dps, tanking.

I prefer to win or lose on my own merits, not because the people to make a perfect group are unavailable(or just don't do what they need to be doing).  Not saying i don't screw up sometimes myself, but this kind of balance is bullshit imo.

Originally posted by slippyC

Originally posted by CreepingDoom

Originally posted by slippyC

but people in general want to have a chance against someone else. 

 

 

Being outplayed doesn't mean the chance never existed, just that the player failed to grasp the opportunity for victory when it came.

Losing is part of the game, learn how to win, makes things alot more entertaining.

I don't prefer that style of gameplay. 

Being outplayed has nothing to do with it in a rock/paper/scissors setup.  It doesn't depend on you, it depends on a group, which they could have screwed up and not you.  Also under a good many circumstances you aren't going to have an optimal group to be balanced between healing, dps, tanking.

I prefer to win or lose on my own merits, not because the people to make a perfect group are unavailable(or just don't do what they need to be doing).  Not saying i don't screw up sometimes myself, but this kind of balance is bullshit imo.

Actually, this would reflect on the games DAOC  heritage. I recall the really good 8 mans would actually only fight with each other, and would only go out on a run when all of their cooldowns were off. 

This meant they would fight about 20 minutes, and sit for 30 min or so until everyone's cooldowns came back up.

As a team a single 8 man like this could easily destroy 3 or more pug or even guild groups without losing a man.

I expect to see the same precision arise in WAR if the mechanics allow for it.

I wouldn't put a lot of stock in low lvl PvP with people new to the game. My Shaman has encountered ironbreakers who I beat easily but I've had my butt handed to me by others as well. A lot of it depends on the gear and skill of the player involved. At some point you reach a critical point as a healer where you cannot outheal their dmg and die and that tipping point is pretty fragile so even a small difference in DPS can make a fight go from easy to extremely hard.

So basically this thread is just OP for some reason wasn't expecting a rock paper scissors approach to balance in an RVR game?

To the OP: The game is based on group vs group, not one vs one. This has been a long known fact about this game. Add to this the fact the game is still in beta and the nerf/boost hammer has swung many times throughout the beta, and will continue to keep swinging.

Cheers!

What you have to realize is that this game will always be balanced around group combat and not 1v1 fights.  Healers need to be hard to kill as they are almost always the first targets.  This is something that will always exist in this game.  The only adjustment I could see them ever making is lowering their dps slightly, while raising a class like the magus's survivability slightly.

Ohhhh I have an idea....

Why not take classes OUT entirely and make it skill based?

Seriously, if we're so worried about balance, then take the damn classes out and let the players choose what they want for themselves.

Oh what a sec. Thats too complicated for todays games, right? We're dumb idiots, we cant choose for ourselves

Lets not forget that he’s running with a little pet Rune Priest. That combo is a nasty one, and 1 or two tanks without any support are going to get owned... throw in a Destro healer or two and now you got a battle.

Its hard to tell but I think the RP is also throwing in some shots off screen too.

Most of those other clips Destro was a little outnumbered too.

1v1 match-ups, unless they are your polar opposite, are going to end in a decisive victory for one side. If a good cohesive group go at it they can really thrash the opposing side... even if outnumbered. Had that happen just last night, 5 on 9 and near the Order spawn so they had the advantage of quick post-death returns and our group held our ground for quite some time with no deaths (at least 3 rez rounds of Order before they got reinforcements).

-Phid

Originally posted by Ghost12

Ohhhh I have an idea....

Why not take classes OUT entirely and make it skill based?

Seriously, if we're so worried about balance, then take the damn classes out and let the players choose what they want for themselves.

Oh what a sec. Thats too complicated for todays games, right? We're dumb idiots, we cant choose for ourselves

I want a skill-based pvp sandbox just as much as the next guy, but the darkfall/earthrise forums are that way ->

Originally posted by TheArzhAngel

A caster / archmage standing face to face, whit tanks. And even taking some of then out ?????


Tell me is that how the rest of this story goes. Now casters not only own you if the have range, but allso in close combat ?????

http://files.filefront.com/Talvas+War+Previewwmv/;11587400;/fileinfo.html

Not playing the game but since you seem stuck with stereotypes then why would you want a high damge tank? I am guessing you want the best of both worlds? You seem happy to let one class stay "weak" as long as another gets their cake and eats it too.