General Discussion

I think SANDBOX has become a term which now means, my own personal game design.

That's why people like sandbox games, because when they use that term, they mean the game which has the features I like, and does not have the features I don't like.

For example, some people think a sandbox game must have skills not levels. Others think a sandbox game can just as easily have levels as skills. Neither one, skills or levels, makes a game a sandbox, or precludes it from being a sandbox.

Or, some people like games when you do something over and over and that increases your skill, like I swing my sword a million times, my sword swinging skill gets better. And THAT's what they mean by "sandbox".

Other people think there should be FFA PvP everywhere, and THAT makes a sandbox. Others think it's about the ability to build a house anywhere, or craft everything in the game, or no NpC's and a completely player based economy.

When someone says, I'm waiting on DarkFall because I like a Sandbox game, what they mean is this. Darkfall doesn't describe any of it's game mechanics, and no one has ever played it, so you don't know what htey are.

So, if you like skills that increase with use, well, I'll just imagine Darkfall has that. If you like skill points you can spend, I'll just imagine Darkfall has that. If you like to be able to build a "tank mage" I'll just imagine Darkfall has that. If you think you shouldn't be able to build a "tank Mage" I'll imagine there are game mechanics that prevent that.

Basically, I'll just imagine whatever features I like, and I'll think they are in Darkfall. Whatever features I personally don't like, I"ll imagine they are not in Darkfall.

Therefore, it's always going to be the perfect game, because it will always have whatever you like, and none of what you don't like.

And that's what "sandbox" means now. A game that has everything I personally like, and nothing I personally don't like.

Of course such a game is never coming out, because no game will ever have every feature you like, and none fo the features you don't like. Even if you design it yourself it's not going to be like that because of budget and technology constraints.

While I do think there are some things that inherently make a game more sandboxy, and I could spout my own definition, I think your right.  My own definition of sandbox would ultimately make the game I would like to play.

Venge Sunsoar

sandbox for me is a MMO that has freedom and no instances. No raids or no forced raids, free to go anywhere in the world...like SWG, Ryzom, UO, Eve...perfect examples. Well I didn't like Eve since I'm not into space games, but SWG, Ryzom, UO are my favorite MMOs. And I could consider Asheron's Call as a sandbox and that game was awesome, so I'll add that to my favorite MMOs too.

The only MMOs I've liked are similar to the ones I've listed. Not quest forced, not raid forced, and grouping in all those is encouraged but not forced either. That to me is freedom, to not be forced to play a certain way but to play any way you want depending on what you want to do.

Originally posted by Vendayn

sandbox for me is a MMO that has freedom and no instances. No raids or no forced raids, free to go anywhere in the world...like SWG, Ryzom, UO, Eve...perfect examples. Well I didn't like Eve since I'm not into space games, but SWG, Ryzom, UO are my favorite MMOs. And I could consider Asheron's Call as a sandbox and that game was awesome, so I'll add that to my favorite MMOs too.

 

The only MMOs I've liked are similar to the ones I've listed. Not quest forced, not raid forced, and grouping in all those is encouraged but not forced either. That to me is freedom, to not be forced to play a certain way but to play any way you want depending on what you want to do.

 

 

For me, a "sandbox" game is about being able to change the world in some way. Plus I like to group, and don't like to play MMO's solo, so  "forced grouping" means to me a game that has great game mechanics that allow players to work together. As long as you can do that to change the world, it's a sandbox IMO.

Your "encouraged to group but don't have to" design, means for me, that the grouping game kinda sucks, which is the fun part of an MMORPG for me.

Here's my example of why solo friendly means the grouping game sucks. Imagine a game of football. You like to play because you can devise plays, work together as a team, pass the ball, run the ball, etc. Now, some people come along and day, we want to play football too, so please change the rules so we can play solo. We need a field that is half as big, and with only one goal post, and some dummy obstacles on hte field.

Well, that's find and dandy, but you 've changed the rules to the point where I can't have fun anymore with my team. How am I going to play with only one goal post and half a field and dummy obstacles?

I don't see what being able to solo has to do with being a "sandbox", hence everyone has their own definition, and it just comes down to basically, "the game I want to play".

At the heart of a sandbox is freedom.  Features like FFA, housing, crafting, skills, levels, etc. are only features within that freedom, because a game could have all of them and still not be a sandbox.

It sounds like you don't quite get the concept of sandbox. 

The features you are describing are just fluff.

Sandbox is a style game where the objectives are not predefined by the developer, you are given a world with some minimal predefined rulesets and you make your own game in it. 

Like a childs sandbox, which is just a box of sand, the actual game comes from the childs imagination and doesn't have a set objective such as Ludo for instance.

Originally posted by Blodpls

It sounds like you don't quite get the concept of sandbox. 

The features you are describing are just fluff.

Sandbox is a style game where the objectives are not predefined by the developer, you are given a world with some minimal predefined rulesets and you make your own game in it. 

Like a childs sandbox, which is just a box of sand, the actual game comes from the childs imagination and doesn't have a set objective such as Ludo for instance.

I never heard of Ludo, so I can't comment about that.

But I think YOU are missing the point that people on this forum are looking for a sandbox GAME, not just a sandbox.

A Game has to have some objective, or it's not a game. Posters on MMORPG.Com aren't just looking for a box of sand. If that was the cause, they'd be happy with Second Life.

Players are looking for a GAME to play in the sandbox, not just a sandbox with no game.

Originally posted by Blodpls

It sounds like you don't quite get the concept of sandbox. 

The features you are describing are just fluff.

Sandbox is a style game where the objectives are not predefined by the developer, you are given a world with some minimal predefined rulesets and you make your own game in it. 

Like a childs sandbox, which is just a box of sand, the actual game comes from the childs imagination and doesn't have a set objective such as Ludo for instance.

I disagree.  There can be goals and objectives given by the developer however there is a way to sidestep those goals and objectives and be able to produce your own goals and objectives.  Like when someone is allready playing in a sandbox and you can and play with them.  It is about choice.  Eliminiting those pre-defined goals eliminates some choice.

So once again, it just boils down to the, "The game I want to play."

Venge Sunsoar

Sandbox = freedom, choice and tools for the players to make the game world however they wish.

Class/lvls = hampster on a wheel quests, linear gameplay andspoonfed dev content.

It's easy to assume just because a mmo gives the payers skill points and exploration that it is considered a sandbox. While those things have touches of sandbox, a mmo of this kind falls in the hybrid area.  WOW and Vanguard and alot of others fall in this category.

SWG pre-cu, EVE and UO are true sandbox mmo's.