I'm glad there is no Death Penalty.. Reason?

Scenario:

You're in PvP/RvR theres a group of enemies closing in on you, you're outnumbered, but with luck you might just win.

With a death penalty in PvP, your group members would just run away, thinking they are outnumbered and there is no hope, why risk sitting AFK for 10 minutes if you KNOW you're going to die.

Without a death penalty in PvP, your group members might see there are more enemies but you wouldn't mind about dieing, if it meant you might just win. No penatly on losing so just go for it, etc.

The death penalty in PvE however is understandable, and adds a bit of excitement when you might die. It also gives you an incentive not to run in with no brain and attack stupidly.

If there were a death penalty for PvP in this game it would eventually lead to less people playing it, and less people willing to go out and RvR. You want to encourage PvP, not discourage it. Thats why in the successful games now a days (IE WoW,LOTRO,ect) you don't see much of one at all. Not to say either of them have much PvP, but they do have enough to say if there WAS a penalty no one would do it. It also matters in PvE too because I mean, why would you want to waste hours of your time getting back to where you were in  level for dying to some creature from lag or someone in your team screwing up? That discourages grouping with other players for fear of dying.

When you die you often respawn quite far away. That 5+ minutes it takes to run back could be the very thing that costs you a battlefield objective. I would say that is a good solution to the zerg-fest. Besides, if you look at ancient wars they were mostly all zerg fests since it is rather hard to lob an axe from 1 mile away!

To understand why the death penalty is the way it is and why it is effective you need to play the game.

Some people may feel that, in RvR, just resurrecting a few seconds later is too light of a penalty, but it is plenty severe. In the time it takes to resurrect and run back to the fight, you have lost a lot of time and potentially a lot of ground.

Charging in to a fight in RvR, dying, respawning, and doing it again, is not an effective tactic. It is much better to play strategically and stay alive.

Suppose I'll chime in here too.  Tactics can still overcome respawn and it's due to the way territories are set up in this game.

I'll give you an example.  There was a keep near the southern edge of Troll Country.  I've forgotten the name but a good bit of siege based pvp happened there.  North of this hold and a fairly decent walk away was the respawn point for "the order," if they died defending the keep.  I'd ask that you all consider that this point is static.  You die and you respawn at that war camp.  You don't choose a new spawn point etc.  Doesn't the strategy to stop an endless zerg become rather obvious then?

To get from the war camp to the keep meant a jog south.  There was an occasion where a guild of destro actually figured this out and deployed a task force which camped out in the forest waiting for the unlucky respawners.  By the time enough people died to give this forest detachment of Chaos a run for their money the main destro force was damn near done taking the keep.

So even with no serious death penalty tactics can still overcome what you all call a zerg.  The only time no death penalty really becomes an issue is when the spawn point and the objective to be taken/defended are side by side.  From what I saw of the scenario maps and open world RvR that was never the case.  The zerg can be stopped it just requires more thought as to how to stop it.  It's not like another game whose name I will not mention, where objectives are a mere hop, skip, and a jump away from the graveyard.  Stop a 15 second zerg is a helluva lot different than stopping a 2 minute zerg.

If the game and combat is fun, I see no need to change the penalties just to satisfy some "hardcore" gamer who put up with crap back in the day simply because there was no other alternative.

Quests that had you search the entire world for some NPC based on vague quest text are considered "hardcore", but in reality they're just arbitrarily difficult. If you miss the "hardcore" days of MMO gaming, then go back and play them. Many old MMOs are still online.

"hardcore" does not mean "fun". It just means "extremely difficult". If you were truly hardcore, you would only play games that actually kill you in real life upon virtual death. That would make the game so fun! Heart pumping with each PvP encounter, one of you will die for real, so you better hope the latest patch didn't nerf your class!

Op, all fear of death would do is cause people to hug their base NPCs.  Do you know how boring that would be?  Games are to be enjoyed not to be afraid of the big guy around the corner going to cleave you out a third eye-hole. 

Lots of people hate death penalties, and what people hate is going to be left out of the game.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by ronan32

... you're supposed to be having fun not becoming paranoid around ever corner...

 

Sure, if you're playing Barbie Beauty Styler (tm), but many gamers are looking for some kind of thrill in combat.

what because you get no thrillers in real life? oh i'm sorry im not as cool as you man..you're such a rebel, i want to be like you when i grow up, as soon as i get bored with barbie of course.

lol.. cant you find something serious to cry about ?

The problem with a lot of MMORPG PvP tactics is the zerg.  Zerging would okay if it were ONE tactic.  Unfortunately more often than not, it is the ONLY tactic.  So, the team that has one person piddling around loses if they are equal in number.  If they're not equal in number, are we relying on tactics at all?  Rule by force is certainly a classic way to deal with things in ancient empirical battles across flat open lands, but does make for a pretty dull battle experience in a game.  One thing I appreciated about Tribes 1 & 2 (mostly 2) is how 'what you do' is more important than how many you are with.  A really nice change of pace is encouraging teams to break off and perform specific functions, or an individual using wit to disrupt what would otherwise be a zergfest.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by 123123456202

i wish PvE had a harsher one but PvP really shouldnt have a death penalty in my opinion so except for the easy penalty for pve they made the right decision because i think you will be dieing alot more often than you are use to in an MMO

 

To say you will die more often then other MMOs is just stupid.   WAR is not the first to PvP or RvR so dont talk out of your ass.

PvE and PvP should have the same penalty, if you die, you die period, it should hurt, it should make you fear dieing.  You as a player should want to do everything in your power to advoid death... Ever Play EQ1, The good players were easy as hell to point out due to the Death penalty.

Before you all start going off the deep end on how EQ1's death penalty was nothing but a time sink remember the whole point of any MMO is a time sink, to get the player to pay to play longer is the goal after all.

No Death Penatly for PvP is crap, ruins any chance of WAR being fun for myself and gamers like me who want Risk back in our games.

No risk is worthless in MMOs. All you have to do with no death penalty is throw body after body at the enemy until you win or they leave.  Pointless.   Zerging will be the main tactic in any open World PvP/RvR fights.

First off want to point out you shouldnt be comparing games where PvP was not the main focus of the game to a game where RvR (PvP) is the main focus. You eliteists make me laugh. All a severe death penalty would do in a PvP focused game is destroy the game before it even got started. Running away like a pussy half way through the fight because you dont wanna die is a pathetic excuse for a player to call themself "good". You wanna prove your the best? There are ways to do it starting in tier4 I believe. Oh and no matter how elite you THINK you are you WILL  die LOTS in WAR.

I also find it funny how people keep saying zerging is going to be the main tactic blah blah blah blah blah. How many times do the testers have to tell you zerging doesnt work for long. Maybe the first push but after that, game over for the zerg's vs. a tactical team of players. Hell the only "skill" a heavy death penalty causes is the skill to run like a little school girl. Yes I played harsh death penalty MMO's (Asherons Call-corpse looting and stat reduction that you had to do PvE to remove and it stacked). The best would fight it out regardless of the death penalty while the ones who only think they are good would run away crying if things didnt start well for them.

So talk all your eliteist BS you want.  I will be killing and dieing in mass haveing a great time instead of crying that no game is comming out with hard DP (which if you havent figured out by now is a thing of the past and if thats all you judge a game on you may as well stop playing multi player games now).

Originally posted by ronan32

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by ronan32

... you're supposed to be having fun not becoming paranoid around ever corner...

 

Sure, if you're playing Barbie Beauty Styler (tm), but many gamers are looking for some kind of thrill in combat.

 

what because you get no thrillers in real life? oh i'm sorry im not as cool as you man..you're such a rebel, i want to be like you when i grow up, as soon as i get bored with barbie of course.

It will all be ok Ronan, the OP can soon crawl back to Darkfall since that is the only true game out there. . . or is it?

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by 123123456202

i wish PvE had a harsher one but PvP really shouldnt have a death penalty in my opinion so except for the easy penalty for pve they made the right decision because i think you will be dieing alot more often than you are use to in an MMO

 

To say you will die more often then other MMOs is just stupid.   WAR is not the first to PvP or RvR so dont talk out of your ass.

PvE and PvP should have the same penalty, if you die, you die period, it should hurt, it should make you fear dieing.  You as a player should want to do everything in your power to advoid death... Ever Play EQ1, The good players were easy as hell to point out due to the Death penalty.

Before you all start going off the deep end on how EQ1's death penalty was nothing but a time sink remember the whole point of any MMO is a time sink, to get the player to pay to play longer is the goal after all.

No Death Penatly for PvP is crap, ruins any chance of WAR being fun for myself and gamers like me who want Risk back in our games.

No risk is worthless in MMOs. All you have to do with no death penalty is throw body after body at the enemy until you win or they leave.  Pointless.   Zerging will be the main tactic in any open World PvP/RvR fights.

Yup I agree with you, I said the same thing in game many times before NDA. This will be nothing but a Zerg fest game now. Which entirely is opposite of having fun. Throw all the people you can on a siege and you win, stupid idea not to have a penalty. It will be like this, 3 major guilds get together, throw all they can at once and own. No penalty whatsoever is stupid. This is my biggest gripe on the game and from it I will not be playing after release. I will wait for other games which do not focus on PVP being a zerg fest.

Putting a harsh death penalty into a RvR game is complete garbage. Period. Why? - You cannot control your own death.

It's as simple as that. You get focused by 10 guys and you're dead. What did you expect? EvE? A g ame where 90% of the fight is planning and 10% is actual in-fight-decisions?

This game is WAR, it's about "beating the living snot out of each other", it's not about "ok C unit flank left distance 10 attack when A unit reaches stormpole" blah blah...

This is NOT a FFA open PvP sandbox world. And I'm GLAD it isn't, dashing into a warzone wildly attacking people can be a darn lot of fun. So it's a zerg fest? Who cares, meaningful zerg (like RvR) are actually FUN!

Meridion

Originally posted by xenogias

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by 123123456202

i wish PvE had a harsher one but PvP really shouldnt have a death penalty in my opinion so except for the easy penalty for pve they made the right decision because i think you will be dieing alot more often than you are use to in an MMO

 

To say you will die more often then other MMOs is just stupid.   WAR is not the first to PvP or RvR so dont talk out of your ass.

PvE and PvP should have the same penalty, if you die, you die period, it should hurt, it should make you fear dieing.  You as a player should want to do everything in your power to advoid death... Ever Play EQ1, The good players were easy as hell to point out due to the Death penalty.

Before you all start going off the deep end on how EQ1's death penalty was nothing but a time sink remember the whole point of any MMO is a time sink, to get the player to pay to play longer is the goal after all.

No Death Penatly for PvP is crap, ruins any chance of WAR being fun for myself and gamers like me who want Risk back in our games.

No risk is worthless in MMOs. All you have to do with no death penalty is throw body after body at the enemy until you win or they leave.  Pointless.   Zerging will be the main tactic in any open World PvP/RvR fights.

 

First off want to point out you shouldnt be comparing games where PvP was not the main focus of the game to a game where RvR (PvP) is the main focus. You eliteists make me laugh. All a severe death penalty would do in a PvP focused game is destroy the game before it even got started. Running away like a pussy half way through the fight because you dont wanna die is a pathetic excuse for a player to call themself "good". You wanna prove your the best? There are ways to do it starting in tier4 I believe. Oh and no matter how elite you THINK you are you WILL  die LOTS in WAR.

I also find it funny how people keep saying zerging is going to be the main tactic blah blah blah blah blah. How many times do the testers have to tell you zerging doesnt work for long. Maybe the first push but after that, game over for the zerg's vs. a tactical team of players. Hell the only "skill" a heavy death penalty causes is the skill to run like a little school girl. Yes I played harsh death penalty MMO's (Asherons Call-corpse looting and stat reduction that you had to do PvE to remove and it stacked). The best would fight it out regardless of the death penalty while the ones who only think they are good would run away crying if things didnt start well for them.

So talk all your eliteist BS you want.  I will be killing and dieing in mass haveing a great time instead of crying that no game is comming out with hard DP (which if you havent figured out by now is a thing of the past and if thats all you judge a game on you may as well stop playing multi player games now).

I would agree with you if WAR wasn't going to be as big as it will be. With millions of players playing this will be a HUGE F'n problem. You will have 2 or 3 zerg rushes then a tactical team and it is over. The ZERG will make this game unbearable in PVP because of the mass amounts of people that will be playing. Trust me I already had this discussion awhile back with many hardcore WAR players during beta on vent who all agree that this would be an issue with large populations.

Originally posted by Sornin

To understand why the death penalty is the way it is and why it is effective you need to play the game.

Some people may feel that, in RvR, just resurrecting a few seconds later is too light of a penalty, but it is plenty severe. In the time it takes to resurrect and run back to the fight, you have lost a lot of time and potentially a lot of ground.

Charging in to a fight in RvR, dying, respawning, and doing it again, is not an effective tactic. It is much better to play strategically and stay alive.

Hmm... disappointing really.  I thought they would model the death penalty after the one in DAOC.  Yes, it had some consequences.  Your gear took damage and eventually had to be repaired. (it wore out too, and had to be replaced). 

You also lost stats when you died, which had to be restored by a visit to a healer.  It was possible to die so  many times you could no longer fight effectively, and then you had to pay a bunch of gold to the healer to restore it.)

Finally, when you had to run back, you really had to run back. In fact, there used to be portal system and you could find yourself stuck for 10 minutes waiting to even port back to the fight...then have to run to the battle. (this was a bit over the top actually)

But despite all that, many players did what others have said here, they'd throw themselves into the fray with no regards for survival. In fact, my character, the MInstrel could frequently survive a fight and I'd get yelled at by my group for not fighting to the death in the battle, which I thought was stupid.

So while I thought DAOC's PVP death penalty was a bit weak, overall I thought it was a decent balance of risk without too severe in terms of penalties.

So now you guys are saying Mythic threw all of that out the window and there's really no more penalty than one gets in WOW.  Sigh.

I agree with the OP, WAR is really starting to sound like a game I'm not going to enjoy playing.

And like someone suggested earlier, I'll probably play something else.

There's no corpse/sprit run.. if you die you get sent back to your bind point / nearest war camp. Also the more often you die the longer your respawn timer becomes. If you make the death penalty too severe people are not gonna be pvp'ing unless they're hardcore.. that would pretty much put off 90% of the players who are probably gonna be casual pvpers. Then the hardcore pvp players are gonna whine that they got nobody to fight against and the game phails.

The no death penalty will just weed out the elitist assholes who think they're better than everyone else at games. If you really feel the need to prove yourself in a video game well then i feel sorry for you. Hardcore gamers, calling yourself hardcore is enough in itself to warrant a punch in the face.

Originally posted by Meridion

Putting a harsh death penalty into a RvR game is complete garbage. Period. Why? - You cannot control your own death.

It's as simple as that. You get focused by 10 guys and you're dead. What did you expect? EvE? A g ame where 90% of the fight is planning and 10% is actual in-fight-decisions?

This game is WAR, it's about "beating the living snot out of each other", it's not about "ok C unit flank left distance 10 attack when A unit reaches stormpole" blah blah...

This is NOT a FFA open PvP sandbox world. And I'm GLAD it isn't, dashing into a warzone wildly attacking people can be a darn lot of fun. So it's a zerg fest? Who cares, meaningful zerg (like RvR) are actually FUN!

Meridion

You obviously have not been around the MMO block much. Have you ever played Shadowbane? The CS zergs made it impossible to play. I am not comparing the two but am just saying a Zerg is going to be a big turn off for many players who want tactical leadership.

Originally posted by Tyres100

You obviously have not been around the MMO block much. Have you ever played Shadowbane? The CS zergs made it impossible to play. I am not comparing the two but am just saying a Zerg is going to be a big turn off for many players who want tactical leadership.

If you have good commanders/warleaders in your warband then obviously you will be winning most of your skirmishes which gives your side a bonus in the grand scheme of things. Yes zerg will be there but if you play it smart there won't be a big issue in this as your HP/AP regens fast when out of combat.. there's absolutely no need to drink/eat.. after a fight.. your hp/ap will regen to full in about 5 seconds.. so you can get back into battle.

Don't make me laugh. I played EVE for three years myself, on and off, a game with pretty much the ultimate death penalty -- you blow up, you lose your ship, everything on it, and possibly your pilot pod. You'll get a token insurance payment worth likely 1/10 the cost of the ship and its modules, possibly less.

The only thing to fear about death penalties in MMORPGs is the increased money grinding you'll have to do later, which is ultimately a bollocks way of generating fear.

And when dying=grinding (as it always done in games with "death penalties"), people go to extreme lengths to try not to die, which severely impacts the way PvP plays out.

No death penalty is fine with me. And I'm a former EVE lowsec PvP'er, so that's saying something.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Sornin

To understand why the death penalty is the way it is and why it is effective you need to play the game.

Some people may feel that, in RvR, just resurrecting a few seconds later is too light of a penalty, but it is plenty severe. In the time it takes to resurrect and run back to the fight, you have lost a lot of time and potentially a lot of ground.

Charging in to a fight in RvR, dying, respawning, and doing it again, is not an effective tactic. It is much better to play strategically and stay alive.

 

Hmm... disappointing really.  I thought they would model the death penalty after the one in DAOC.  Yes, it had some consequences.  Your gear took damage and eventually had to be repaired. (it wore out too, and had to be replaced). 

You also lost stats when you died, which had to be restored by a visit to a healer.  It was possible to die so  many times you could no longer fight effectively, and then you had to pay a bunch of gold to the healer to restore it.)

Finally, when you had to run back, you really had to run back. In fact, there used to be portal system and you could find yourself stuck for 10 minutes waiting to even port back to the fight...then have to run to the battle. (this was a bit over the top actually)

But despite all that, many players did what others have said here, they'd throw themselves into the fray with no regards for survival. In fact, my character, the MInstrel could frequently survive a fight and I'd get yelled at by my group for not fighting to the death in the battle, which I thought was stupid.

So while I thought DAOC's PVP death penalty was a bit weak, overall I thought it was a decent balance of risk without too severe in terms of penalties.

So now you guys are saying Mythic threw all of that out the window and there's really no more penalty than one gets in WOW.  Sigh.

I agree with the OP, WAR is really starting to sound like a game I'm not going to enjoy playing.

And like someone suggested earlier, I'll probably play something else.

 

 

 

Thank you, at least you understand the logic. The ones who are arguing the most about why we should STFU about penalty is the ones who are carebear type players who want instant action and instant rewards. A breed we will never stop and it will get worse in future MMO's where they just hand you everything. I like yourself want some sort of penalty and DAOC was awesome with RVR PVP balance. If you died in DAOC you had enough of a penalty and time sink it made for strategy and coordination all more important and team work. Which when you won you had so much energy and excitement of a big accomplishment you slept like a baby that night. In WAR we won't have that, because there will be thousands of players using the ZERG tactic in waves just to get the job done quickly.

Originally posted by xenogias

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by 123123456202

i wish PvE had a harsher one but PvP really shouldnt have a death penalty in my opinion so except for the easy penalty for pve they made the right decision because i think you will be dieing alot more often than you are use to in an MMO

 

To say you will die more often then other MMOs is just stupid.   WAR is not the first to PvP or RvR so dont talk out of your ass.

PvE and PvP should have the same penalty, if you die, you die period, it should hurt, it should make you fear dieing.  You as a player should want to do everything in your power to advoid death... Ever Play EQ1, The good players were easy as hell to point out due to the Death penalty.

Before you all start going off the deep end on how EQ1's death penalty was nothing but a time sink remember the whole point of any MMO is a time sink, to get the player to pay to play longer is the goal after all.

No Death Penatly for PvP is crap, ruins any chance of WAR being fun for myself and gamers like me who want Risk back in our games.

No risk is worthless in MMOs. All you have to do with no death penalty is throw body after body at the enemy until you win or they leave.  Pointless.   Zerging will be the main tactic in any open World PvP/RvR fights.

 

First off want to point out you shouldnt be comparing games where PvP was not the main focus of the game to a game where RvR (PvP) is the main focus. You eliteists make me laugh. All a severe death penalty would do in a PvP focused game is destroy the game before it even got started. Running away like a pussy half way through the fight because you dont wanna die is a pathetic excuse for a player to call themself "good". You wanna prove your the best? There are ways to do it starting in tier4 I believe. Oh and no matter how elite you THINK you are you WILL  die LOTS in WAR.

I also find it funny how people keep saying zerging is going to be the main tactic blah blah blah blah blah. How many times do the testers have to tell you zerging doesnt work for long. Maybe the first push but after that, game over for the zerg's vs. a tactical team of players. Hell the only "skill" a heavy death penalty causes is the skill to run like a little school girl. Yes I played harsh death penalty MMO's (Asherons Call-corpse looting and stat reduction that you had to do PvE to remove and it stacked). The best would fight it out regardless of the death penalty while the ones who only think they are good would run away crying if things didnt start well for them.

So talk all your eliteist BS you want.  I will be killing and dieing in mass haveing a great time instead of crying that no game is comming out with hard DP (which if you havent figured out by now is a thing of the past and if thats all you judge a game on you may as well stop playing multi player games now).

Do you really need to name call?  Does that help your point?  Do you know me? Do you know I am an Eliteist?  No you dont.
 

How can a game be fun with no risk? Without risk the reward is meanless.  All I want is to fear death in the game enough to make me do everything in my power not to die...

This bullshit about not being in control is stupid, its a MMO dumb shit, its called an MMO because it has alot of other players.  

Without a good death penatly the game is shallow, does not matter how much content it has, without a good death penatly their is not point in learning the in's and out's of your charater nor anyone elses..

If you die, respawn, run to fight, fight and repeat... no tactics at all, just keep throwing bodies at the enemy till you win or they leave.

Sorry I want to enjoy my game, I want to feel like I earned my reward and without a death penatly I cannot earn my reward.  

WAR is on Easy mode and I dont want to play MMOs that are on easy mode, I tried a game like that once, I got bored quickly.

Last but not least,  Dont worry, I will not be playing this game, I will be passing as I already posted. You all have fun enjoying your easy mode game with no risk.

Well from actually playing the game... there was very little zerg.  2 sides would face off and try to take an objective.  the sides would face each other, throw some ranged attacks and then eventually clash.  One side would mostly kill off the other, and the survivors would flee and regroup with those who respawned.  they would get back and try to re-take the objective.

sounds like a fun game.  there was no zerg, you just got to get back into the action for the next skirmish instead of waiting for 10min.

If you want a death penalty, Play EVE.  its a great game that really takes risk vs reward seriously and it can be fun.  If you don't want a death penalty Play WAR.  its a great game that is more about mass PvP, and thus lets you keep PvPing.

Originally posted by sigamon

Originally posted by saint4God

 

How about when you die in the game, your keyboard sends 2 milliamps of electrical shock through your fingers? 

"Electrocution occurs when a small, specific amount of electrical current flows through the heart for 1 to 3 seconds. 0.006-0.2 Amps (that's 6-200mA milliamps) of current flowing through the heart disrupts the normal coordination of heart muscles. These muscles loose their vital rhythm and begin to fibrilate. Death soon follows."
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070307161924AAKZBJB

 

i want a game where if i die forrest griffon punches me in the face repeatedly until i die

QFT. Both of these could work.