Originally posted by Draconus

I have a friend that plays WoW none stop and was in beta in WaR with me... his complaint is that he wants to be able to 1 or 2 shot people like he can in WoW... he is looking for the easy I WIN BUTTON.

well guess what.. there is no I WIN BUTTON in War.. the game for the most part is very ballance in comabt and the fights last long enough for you to think and use some skill.

it's not "WTF, I JUST GOT PWNT... wher ethe hell did that come from."

it's more like

"holy crap I'm under attack, ok.. what should I do.. ok I'll do this.. " then it is one of the next two

"cool that worked" or "damn it, next time I'll try something else."

 you have time to think in combat, which is great

The kiddies looking for watered down fast as lightening combat just need to keep playing WoW.

Their is no need to think in WAR combat because there is no Death Penatly, if you die, just respawn and attack again... Its pointless to have slow combat if there is nothing to fear if you lose.
 

Dont give me this time sink bullshit... A MMO is a time sink, that is the whole point of any MMO.  The longer a player plays the longer they must pay.

Originally posted by Eetherean

Originally posted by memoir

So it is not as fast and fluid as Wow. ...It has its own pace.

OK.

But Wow is the standard in fast and fluid animation in MMORPG.

So it's not up to the standard put out there.

Np.

As long as you acknowledge this as a fanboy, it shouldn't be any problem for you. ...

But will it be accepted by the PvP Wow players (YOUR target public)? I doubt it (as was shown in LOTRO and AoC in earlier attempts).

 

 

but wow pvp players are NOT the game's target audience.

gotta stop thinking like that.

Yes. Yes, they are. Every MMO's target audience is WoW's target audience, whether they show it or not. They would not be in the business if they were not trying to achieve in recieving WoW's target audience. This is why we see such little innovation in the genre of MMOs, which is sad but true.

If any MMO out there is trying to be the most evident on trying to get WoW's target audience it's this game.

I think people are really missing the mark when it comes to this comparison and it's because no one is accounting for the dynamic behind the two systems (WoW vs. War)

I played a rogue in WoW.  Combat in WoW most closely draws a resemblance to that of a stopwatch.  From the moment you opened and lost stealth, it was a race.  The longer you were exposed the greater the chance that death was going to greet you fairly quickly.  If we were to take away the variables in a 1 v 1 or 1 v X equation such as player skill, latency, etc. and look at the dynamic that drove WoW what's left?  Essentially you had 2 characters at 100% doing battle to see who kills who the quickest.  Duh...right?  When I say 100% I don't simply mean health and mana/energy, what I mean is all things being equal the two characters are as strong as they will ever be at the first moment of pvp engagment.

This is where I feel the games subtle differences come into play.  In WAR each character starts at 100% battle readiness, but during the course of battle each class has a "special" mechanic and other skills which when combined boost them to 200%.  For example, I played the Bright Wizard class in beta for something like 2 and 1/2 weeks.  The innate ability of the BW is/was combustion.  It was something that with each attack built up (and rather quickly I might add).  What combustion did was to boost the crit rate and potential damage multiplier with the drawback of back lash. 

Back lash can be seen as a journey to the sun.  On earth the effect of the sun's rays on a person are minimal   We still get quite the bit of light with minimum risk.  Let's say I wanted a shit ton more light with an amazingly small amount of energy being lost to the ozone and the environment in general.  I would then have to venture closer to the sun to feel the direct, undiluted effects of its rays.  Well, the closer I get the the sun, the more UV intensity I have to endure as well as heat/light energy etc.  Assuming I can now touch the sun I am at that point harnessing the greatest energy potential possible...only I'm dead.  Consumption works kinda like that journey.  Once I harness my full potential each spell starts to hit me (back lash against me) for 300-600 damage; however, at that point my spells have a greater chance to explode, crit, do more damage and just generally own face!

So jumping back on topic.  In WAR combat characters have to essentially charge up their class specific mechanic in addition to building a morale meter which unlocks even more special abilities such as dd attacks, shields, buffs etc.  This actually happens quite fast.  I'd estimate that given a target my BW was at full combustion with atleast a rank 1 morale attack ready in just under 20-25 seconds.  The more enemies around the easier it is to up as I can cast endlessly and build combustion that much faster.

Well going back to the comparison.  Where WoW was a stopwatch, WAR follows more of a bell curve.  You start off at 100%, boost yourself to 200% and then fall back down to 100%.  What this does is make the duration of battle vary.  If my dps dump is ready (100% combustion, rank 1 morale ability, dots applied and ticking, while winding up a fire ball) well then I can tell you...the battle is pretty damn short ESPECIALLY if that ish crits, but at the same time when my dps dump isn't ready provided it's 1 v 1 it's still a pretty short lived encounter.  The thing that makes combat in WAR long is when "good" healers come into play.  But that can be said even for WoW.

So combat in WAR isn't so much slow as just different.  I know that sounds like a cop out but my pvp encounters don't last long simply because that can't...I simply don't have to health to sustain them.  And melee in t his game is so vicious.  I mean I've near seen shield wielding tanks own face in a game before but if you let them get close to you - game over.  Though I feel this post doesn't flow very well, I hope it gives whoever reads it all some concept of why pvp in WAR is just different.  Oh also bare in mind that the previously mentioned mechanic is specific to the BW as I can't really speak for the others.

P.S.  Oh, and that whole backlash thing can and will kill you.  There is no safety net.  Nothing like killing an enemy with that last spell only to have the back lash from said spell send you on a respawning adventure.

Originally posted by Draconus

word to the wise: go into the game expecting something 100% different, becuase if you want WoW.. your not going to find it here.

tons of people have been saying "WAR is just like WoW".... well, I say they are people that have not had a chance to play it, becuase they are wrong.

THANK GOD, WoW makes me want to puke.

I am not looking forward to all the comparisons that will be made in the chat channels either. If your so hooked on WoW, keep playing it.

Originally posted by Blaar

Hell I don't care if people say that it's worse then wow and that it plays like crap... If they say it sucks, then they won't play it, so that means less stupid fucks in WAR :)

You would thing so, but I wouldnt count on it.  Some ppl will buy it just to harrass others.

Originally posted by Eetherean

ok ive been doing alot of reading and researching and this is what i've come across and have really noticed now.

 

wow players and ex wow players are saying this "combat is slow paced, blah blah blah, i use one or two abliities in pve blah blah blah"

and then i read ex daoc players saying "its alot like daoc combat but on a more grander scale and alot more epic feeling"

 

DO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE!??!?

what were you people expecting!?

wow 2.0!??!

THIS IS NOT WORLD OF WARCRAFT.

i've been telling everyone since the beginning if your big into WoW your probably NOT going to like WARHAMMER combat. expect daoc with more pvp and world options set in the warhammer universe.

This is NOT twitch based combat with insta-kill abilities. it is slower paced combat with more tactical decisions and abilities. 

if you were expecting WOW with massive pvp THEN YOU WERE SADLY MISTAKEN.

please get it in your head already!

This is not WOW. This is WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So what has WoW got to do with combat being slow?  This isn't an answer to the complaints and flamers!!!

Is this a way for you to somehow justify it being ok that it is slower?  By your own judgements the game is slower.  If that is what you like that is fine, but some of us want faster combat than this. 

Also because it is slower, how does it make it more tactical than say WoW?

Just so you know I played DAoC much longer than I played WoW.  DAoC, almost 3 years and WoW maybe 6 months.

Why did Mythic speed up the combat if there wasn't a problem with it? 

And since you threw gas on the fire.  I would really like to know how this is more tactical then pretty much any other game out there that has PvP?  Please explain...

The people complaining about the combat being to slow is the infamous "8 year old WoW Crowd" that never played a real pvp/rvr game like DAoC.

Originally posted by kaizer878

The people complaining about the combat being to slow is the infamous "8 year old WoW Crowd" that never played a real pvp/rvr game like DAoC.

Hope you are being funny...

Originally posted by Draconus

I have a friend that plays WoW none stop and was in beta in WaR with me... his complaint is that he wants to be able to 1 or 2 shot people like he can in WoW... he is looking for the easy I WIN BUTTON.

well guess what.. there is no I WIN BUTTON in War.. the game for the most part is very ballance in comabt and the fights last long enough for you to think and use some skill.

it's not "WTF, I JUST GOT PWNT... wher ethe hell did that come from."

it's more like

"holy crap I'm under attack, ok.. what should I do.. ok I'll do this.. " then it is one of the next two

"cool that worked" or "damn it, next time I'll try something else."

 you have time to think in combat, which is great

The kiddies looking for watered down fast as lightening combat just need to keep playing WoW.

Damn, i though WoW combat was already slow enough. With this kind of reviews i guess i'll save a couple of bucks next month.
 

Good luck. Old man

Originally posted by Vhayne

Perhaps what people are saying is that the damage on skills just doesn't seem to be enough.

For example:  In WoW, playing as a rogue, you get jumped by a warrior, mage, and hunter.  Well, unless you vanish and escape, you're going to die.  Let's say you decide to try and take 1 of them with you at least.  You actually have a chance at that.  You can probably kill that mage before the 3 of them take you out. 

In WAR, that's not going to happen.  You get attacked like that, and it's

<click ability1 for instant DD attack>

autoswing while waiting for GCD of 1.5 - 2 seconds

<click ability2 which is a dot that might take down 1 guys hp 5% when it goes it's term of 30 seconds  --  OR just clicky ability1 again since it's a DD and has refreshed>

 

In the above case, you're not going to go for the dot unless you're stupid.  You don't have time to wait for the piddly damage it does.  You're trying to kill ONE guy while the 3 kill you.  You attacks just don't do enough damage to do that.  With TONS of hp, the skills just don't seem to scale up well enough to make much of a dent, unless in a group, or have alot of time to wail on them.

 

Again though, I still love the game and will be playing.  I just thought I'd share another opinion.

This is simply not true as a  Witch Hunter which is WARs rogue same with Witch elf I can do  exactly what u described that you can do in WoW and still live YES crazy right, because of abilities used together like Sigil of Sigmar with Cloak of the magnus and get thee behind me  with flee lets you escape unharmed and behind your  comrads healing you.

Originally posted by SagaBoy

I think people are really missing the mark when it comes to this comparison and it's because no one is accounting for the dynamic behind the two systems (WoW vs. War)

I played a rogue in WoW.  Combat in WoW most closely draws a resemblance to that of a stopwatch.  From the moment you opened and lost stealth, it was a race.  The longer you were exposed the greater the chance that death was going to greet you fairly quickly.  If we were to take away the variables in a 1 v 1 or 1 v X equation such as player skill, latency, etc. and look at the dynamic that drove WoW what's left?  Essentially you had 2 characters at 100% doing battle to see who kills who the quickest.  Duh...right?  When I say 100% I don't simply mean health and mana/energy, what I mean is all things being equal the two characters are as strong as they will ever be at the first moment of pvp engagment.

This is where I feel the games subtle differences come into play.  In WAR each character starts at 100% battle readiness, but during the course of battle each class has a "special" mechanic and other skills which when combined boost them to 200%.  For example, I played the Bright Wizard class in beta for something like 2 and 1/2 weeks.  The innate ability of the BW is/was combustion.  It was something that with each attack built up (and rather quickly I might add).  What combustion did was to boost the crit rate and potential damage multiplier with the drawback of back lash. 

Back lash can be seen as a journey to the sun.  On earth the effect of the sun's rays on a person are minimal   We still get quite the bit of light with minimum risk.  Let's say I wanted a shit ton more light with an amazingly small amount of energy being lost to the ozone and the environment in general.  I would then have to venture closer to the sun to feel the direct, undiluted effects of its rays.  Well, the closer I get the the sun, the more UV intensity I have to endure as well as heat/light energy etc.  Assuming I can now touch the sun I am at that point harnessing the greatest energy potential possible...only I'm dead.  Consumption works kinda like that journey.  Once I harness my full potential each spell starts to hit me (back lash against me) for 300-600 damage; however, at that point my spells have a greater chance to explode, crit, do more damage and just generally own face!

So jumping back on topic.  In WAR combat characters have to essentially charge up their class specific mechanic in addition to building a morale meter which unlocks even more special abilities such as dd attacks, shields, buffs etc.  This actually happens quite fast.  I'd estimate that given a target my BW was at full combustion with atleast a rank 1 morale attack ready in just under 20-25 seconds.  The more enemies around the easier it is to up as I can cast endlessly and build combustion that much faster.

Well going back to the comparison.  Where WoW was a stopwatch, WAR follows more of a bell curve.  You start off at 100%, boost yourself to 200% and then fall back down to 100%.  What this does is make the duration of battle vary.  If my dps dump is ready (100% combustion, rank 1 morale ability, dots applied and ticking, while winding up a fire ball) well then I can tell you...the battle is pretty damn short ESPECIALLY if that ish crits, but at the same time when my dps dump isn't ready provided it's 1 v 1 it's still a pretty short lived encounter.  The thing that makes combat in WAR long is when "good" healers come into play.  But that can be said even for WoW.

So combat in WAR isn't so much slow as just different.  I know that sounds like a cop out but my pvp encounters don't last long simply because that can't...I simply don't have to health to sustain them.  And melee in t his game is so vicious.  I mean I've near seen shield wielding tanks own face in a game before but if you let them get close to you - game over.  Though I feel this post doesn't flow very well, I hope it gives whoever reads it all some concept of why pvp in WAR is just different.  Oh also bare in mind that the previously mentioned mechanic is specific to the BW as I can't really speak for the others.

P.S.  Oh, and that whole backlash thing can and will kill you.  There is no safety net.  Nothing like killing an enemy with that last spell only to have the back lash from said spell send you on a respawning adventure.

Realy nice post :) I hope it help some people to see the difference in WAR.

Btw can anyone awnser this question: "If I would want to change mastery patchs, do I have to pay big coins do to it? Like in WoW where it will cost you 50g each respec?"

Btw this 50g is this the stupidest shit ever, cmon... if you'r an endgame PvE healer and want to go in a PvP spec, healer or dps, BAM 50g.
Then when your guild is going to raid BAM again 50g, raid over.... "damn I can't respec since my reapairs cost 30g and I dont have any gold left... "

I agree they fixed that a bit with the daily's but frankly those are damn boring, or you can grind you say? Nope cause you'r still in PvE healing spec...

So if you want to play a bit in WOW you have to do quest getting gold or eather go grind a stupid mob for 2hours. I played WoW for 3years and got to Illidan and beyond and I can say 80% of the time I was farming money

Originally posted by Draconus

the combat in this game is DAoC 2.0 extream and is not WoW 2.0

if you guys expect to have WoW combat then I would suggest continueing to play WoW.

 

I am 36 years old and have played a TON of MMORPG's (I'm even an MMORPG developer) and I would have to say that this is the best combat system I have played hands down.

word to the wise: go into the game expecting something 100% different, becuase if you want WoW.. your not going to find it here.

tons of people have been saying "WAR is just like WoW".... well, I say they are people that have not had a chance to play it, becuase they are wrong.

I want DAoC with a dedicated healer in one of the expansions. I live to play healing /cure classes.

WoW is like that speck of white stuff on chicken droppings.

Originally posted by Blaar

Hell I don't care if people say that it's worse then wow and that it plays like crap... If they say it sucks, then they won't play it, so that means less stupid fucks in WAR :)

Cant agree more, this will also be less whiners in the global chat in game too. AWESOME!

Ummm....but the combat is similar to many mmorpg's, it has global cooldowns, cast timed attacks, instant attacks etc.  What is wrong with that anyways? you fan boys act like its a bad thing that it gets compared to other games then go about spreading bs that its original and nothing like other games.  Just admit the truth and get over it.  The combat is slow and clunky at the moment but it will improve.

The game is fun regardless of all this anyways.

Originally posted by Hydrakana

Ummm....but the combat is similar to many mmorpg's, it has global cooldowns, cast timed attacks, instant attacks etc.  What is wrong with that anyways? you fan boys act like its a bad thing that it gets compared to other games then go about spreading bs that its original and nothing like other games.  Just admit the truth and get over it.  The combat is slow and clunky at the moment but it will improve.

The game is fun regardless of all this anyways.

And are you also going to say that a Ferari is the same as a BMW? They both are nice cars and both get you from A to B. But hell give me a Ferari and fuck the BMW

So in other words the slow peace combat promotes Zerg vs Zerg battles. So you can train one person down since the attacks don't scale well in 1vs 1? Someone clear this up for me.

ok so the combat is a tad slow than WoW does this mean the game won't be good? or popular? no!

Give the WoW pvp crowd a little credit they can adjust to a .5 second longer swing timer and 1v1 fights that take longer than 20 seconds.

Man you act like WoW pvpers are mentally challenged and can only deal with fast controls.

you guys have gone nuts.

LOL after all the reviews the only thing the haters could really use is the combat is a tad slower than wow's.

seriously.... remember when AoC released and no one knew about the lack of endgame?

You guys went nuts over the zones being instanced, you harped on it over and over again.

It was really sad.

I will agree the WAR combat is a bit slower than WoW, but the game is still more complete than WoW was a week before release.

In my opinion I think WAR could possibly surpass WoW's sub numbers in NA/Euro.

the combat won't matter one bit.

Originally posted by Hydrakana

Ummm....but the combat is similar to many mmorpg's, it has global cooldowns, cast timed attacks, instant attacks etc.  What is wrong with that anyways? you fan boys act like its a bad thing that it gets compared to other games then go about spreading bs that its original and nothing like other games.  Just admit the truth and get over it.  The combat is slow and clunky at the moment but it will improve.

The game is fun regardless of all this anyways.

Well there is a big difference now with WAR.

Lack of crowd control. (CC)

For those living out in a cage these last 2 years, PvP is now all about crowd control and action/reaction in the fighting scenes. The more sorts of CC, the better and varied the PvP. Instant or casted. It's the ability to fight over INITIATIVE in the control that makes PvP rock. (from sheep, to trap, from cyclone to dispell, from winclip to banish, from mindcontrol to just stun). About 40 different CC ... makes for a very varied fighting according to the groups and classes you meet.

The challenge is to know who you are fighting as a group and with which crowd control tools you can actively interfere. OR with wich tools you can counter the interference.

3 elements now;

With hardly ANY decent CC (one snare doesn't make a CC ), AND with slow paced combat and awful reset timings, AND a very laggy Beta situation), I think that only the DIE HARD fans are satisfied with what they get.

If you don't have CC, the only thing you'd do is smah, spell, hit and heal. Making for an ideal zerg fest where the fighting is all about hitting and healing until one group wins (99% the ones with the larger groups).

Add in the auto following attack - killing all other initiative -  and makes me wonder where that so called famous "skill" is.

Originally posted by djaspor

Been in beta since BOOM invite.

Combat is different.  The main thing you need to get use to is the universal cool down.  It was odd at first (less than an hour) but once you get the timing down, it is fun.  It just prevents people from spamming.  Makes which skills to use a little more tactical. 

That's the problem I have found with a lot of the WOW players that have never experienced DAoC combat system. They are use to spamming, non collision and one two shot killing people that they don't know what to do after that second special went off  "WTF, The tank didn't die!!?"

Originally posted by Tonev

Originally posted by djaspor

Been in beta since BOOM invite.

Combat is different.  The main thing you need to get use to is the universal cool down.  It was odd at first (less than an hour) but once you get the timing down, it is fun.  It just prevents people from spamming.  Makes which skills to use a little more tactical. 

That's the problem I have found with a lot of the WOW players that have never experienced DAoC combat system. They are use to spamming, non collision and one two shot killing people that they don't know what to do after that second special went off  "WTF, The tank didn't die!!?"

Than you must have never played in that game or met the worst PvP players ever.. See my earlier post of CC and what is lacking in WAR.

BTW DAoC HAD very GOOD CC. Why they did diminish it in WAR, I am baffled: it makes the WAR game one big zergfest, with very few tactical skills (hit-heal grouping thing)