New MMO Player: "What's this WoW everyone is talking about?  I'm going to give it a try."

New MMO player discovers a game that is refined , easy to get into, but he gets bored - like any normal person would.

New MMO Player levels up to Novice MMO Player!!!!

Novice MMO Player: "I'm bored, I'm going to try something new.  Let me try this Age of Conan"

Novice  MMO player plays it for 1 day.

Novice MMO Player: "What is this crap?!  This game isn't perfect from day one?  I'm going to spread the word on forums, word of mouth, and every other form of communication I can!"

Some people hear Novice MMO Player's opinion and others like his and their opinions are changed about AoC.  Many people leave AoC, it becomes no longer profitable, and is forced to shut down.

Novice MMO Player returns to WoW to complain about his time in AoC and get his MMO fix, plays WoW for another month, and cancels his sub yet again in search of a new MMO. 

Novice MMO Player levels down to Troll.

Troll gets excited for WAR.

WAR releases, and Troll buys it right away.  Troll plays it for 2 weeks, compares it to WoW nonstop, and ruins his own fun.  Troll goes through the motions and some people hear his opinion and others like his and their opinions are changed about WAR.  Many people leave WAR, it becomes no longer profitable, and is forced to shut down.

We are caught in a vicious cycle.

Vanguard Saga of Heroes - Failed
Auto Assault - Failed
Hellgate London - Failed

Age of Conan - Getting a lot of complaints for, in my opinion, a good game.
WAR - Being compared to WoW too much.  STOP DOING THAT!
Everquest II - Came out the same time as WoW, and fell into darkness.

What do you think about this?  Am I spouting nonsense to you, or does what I say sound like the truth?  I hope you all start enjoying games more as a result by trying to have more fun.

you're right, I totally agree with you.

WAR has probably a 10% success rate once it's released.

WoW is a four year old game with a ton of end game content and an expansion under its belt.

No one cares about that, WAR is supposed to have more content, be more polished and sell more out the box then WoW.

the game is Doomed.

Once I buy WAR im going to leave mmorpg forums for six months so these guys don't destroy my RvR fun.

Once it releases this is what players will say:

the graphics are too cartoony

the combat is slow

the RvR is a Zerg fest

The PvE end game is lacking and buggy

The UI is too big and clunky

and I could go on and on......

putting every new mmo against WoW is stupid and wrong.

my 2c

I pray that every single MMO of this generation fails, and every single one in the next generation does as well, until they finally decide it's time to but some actual effort into making something that deserves to be played.  The games coming out currently seem to be made by those who feel just the time, effort and money alone should guarantee a success.  That copying and thieving ideas from successful games WITHOUT actually understanding why those games were a success should work as well or be similarly beneficial.

Fail.  I seriously am angered by how talentless the majority of this industry is becoming.  Where those with talent line the bottom of the industry attempting to scrape their way to the middle, while talentless hacks who simply copy ideas thrive and make game after horrid and unfinished game.

Originally posted by eldanloco
What do you think about this?  Am I spouting nonsense to you, or does what I say sound like the truth?  I hope you all start enjoying games more as a result by trying to have more fun.

Spouting nonsense bit.

Originally posted by tunabun

I pray that every single MMO of this generation fails, and every single one in the next generation does as well, until they finally decide it's time to but some actual effort into making something that deserves to be played.  The games coming out currently seem to be made by those who feel just the time, effort and money alone should guarantee a success.  That copying and thieving ideas from successful games WITHOUT actually understanding why those games were a success should work as well or be similarly beneficial.

Fail.  I seriously am angered by how talentless the majority of this industry is becoming.  Where those with talent line the bottom of the industry attempting to scrape their way to the middle, while talentless hacks who simply copy ideas thrive and make game after horrid and unfinished game.

WAR seems to know why things they have taken from other games worked well in other games. If we get 2 generation of mmos that fail how many AAA companies do you think will back one? Will be stuck with games that take 6+ years to make becuase they can't get support that the mmos of this generation get.

I'm in total agreement i'm so tired of the WoW fan boys i never played WoW and never will so luckily i haven't needed to compare the Game with any others, like i would.

Each game i judge for myself not what others say sure they have an opinion great for them personally i prefer mine first..

And WoW should have failed in my opinion just by the terrible graphics alone make my eyes bleed to look at it never will play it.

It's the players fault! It's always the players fault.

Originally posted by tunabun

I pray that every single MMO of this generation fails, and every single one in the next generation does as well, until they finally decide it's time to but some actual effort into making something that deserves to be played.  The games coming out currently seem to be made by those who feel just the time, effort and money alone should guarantee a success.  That copying and thieving ideas from successful games WITHOUT actually understanding why those games were a success should work as well or be similarly beneficial.

Fail.  I seriously am angered by how talentless the majority of this industry is becoming.  Where those with talent line the bottom of the industry attempting to scrape their way to the middle, while talentless hacks who simply copy ideas thrive and make game after horrid and unfinished game.

/support

A good game speaks for itself, a good following or reputation is better though.

I like to believe most of us are smart enough to sift through the BS and read between the lines.

If you don't think we are, your reading too many bad posts. Start skimming more and reading less.

Originally posted by Arndur 

WAR seems to know why things they have taken from other games worked well in other games.

Seems?  What evidence do you have of this?

Even if they had mountains of proof they knew what elements to put into other games it still would not be convincing as MMO's are an entirely different beast.  The future of MMOs is NOT in any way related to our complaining, just simply how well they are made.  At the moment nearly every MMO released copies great amounts of mechanics from WoW which in turn merely reskinned the gameplay and mechanical structure from MMOs of the the EQ generation.

Originally posted by Arndur 

If we get 2 generation of mmos that fail how many AAA companies do you think will back one? Will be stuck with games that take 6+ years to make becuase they can't get support that the mmos of this generation get.

Why do we need a AAA company to make a good game?  These are the companies with little reason to be creative as they are trying to make their money back with the least amount of risk.  Not to mention they have been given myriad opportunities to make a well developed, creative, and fun game. 

This generation is filled with games made by already large companies getting supported, and this is the main problem, what needs to happen is smaller companies of equally talented individuals to have an opportunity, this is when we will have the best chance to see a well made, inventive and fun game to appear on the market. 

In my opinion, a developing team who does not answer to a production company will be the ones to finally break through, and by then it will be far to late for any of the larger companies to catch up.  The team who does it right will, like google, take over and seriously change the balance of their particular market.

there is wayyy too much blind faith in WAR. It has crappy combat, and too many classes to balance (i sense alot of OP balancing issues). The only couple good things ive seen and heard, were the pvp system, and guild owned cities. The rest is nothing special.

Well there is going to be a cycle of:

1. Extremely high and impossible expectations for 'THE' WOW-killer mmo that will immerse gamers totally for 6 months and beyond.

2. Hardcore gamers with the above expectations whose intense gaming style could exhaust the content of 10 mmorpgs within 1 month. I saw them reach level 70 in the Burning Crusade within 3 days and many had reached 80 in AOC within a week. Can any developer provide enough content to sate the appetites (and fury) of these ravenous locusts? Some of them, when they exhaust the content or experience an unfinished endgame, become rabid and obsessive haters and blame the companies rather than their own furious addiction. 

3. Huge expense in releasing and maintaining potentially 'successful' mmorpgs creates the Hollywood syndrome: an unwilingness to take too many risks and thus a tendency to recycle what has worked with more enduring and succesful mmorpgs.

4. Given the budgets and time spent in mmoprg development, a sustained advertising campaign (equal in budget and scope to any major Hollywood blockbuster) is launched. The hype reaches fever-pitch in the immediate months prior to release.

5. A new unwillingness by a vocal minority of mmorpg veterens to accept buggy or incomplete (i.e. released in development) mmo releases. This will lead to increased budgets for mmorpg companies and thus even more risk aversion and conformity to the status quo.

6. Casual gamers look on an wonder what the hell is going on and reason that  the mmorpg community is more akin to a den of crack-fiends than a gaming community in the style of the good 'ol days of pencil and dice gamers.

I just hope that WAR doesn't get the same hate as AOC. If it does, then I may just stay away from these forums as it is becoming more like Jenkam inhalation than a sharing of ideas and constructive criticism.

Regards

Melmoth

If you're playing an MMO then stay the hell away from here. I come here in between games and it's never pretty. Right now I'm waiting for WAR OB and I may come back to share my opinion of the game. After that, I plan on playing WAR and not giving MMORPG.com or any other gaming forum a second thought. This place is cancer for your gaming joy.

Originally posted by eldanloco

Some people hear Novice MMO Player's opinion and others like his and their opinions are changed about AoC.  Many people leave AoC, it becomes no longer profitable, and is forced to shut down.
 

The MMO success is more deceisive on its own quality than player's judgements. If a MMO lack of enough subscribers then it has difficulty to continue, even though everyone keep silence but the game would still  face its consequence.

If it's a good quality game then players left the game are less likely to bash the game, they would said no fun or no contents instead of point out the game was seriously defective.

That said, quality game stands more challenges. Player's own judgement to certain game either good or bad still a minor influence to the fate of a MMO. 

You are 100% right. People complain too much about stuff they are paying for. They should just shut up and dish out cash to anything game producers have to offer.

Same as with cars, when you get in a new car you don't expect all breaks to be operational and you certanly don't expect to have all windows in place. So what if you don't have lights, just don't drive during night hours. And who said that you need all 4 tires?!?

I guess this is the moment where you need to realise that YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO BITCH as long as you are paying. I know AOC and WOW will never get my money becouse I have the right to keep it since I think both products suck. And this is only relevant thing here. If those companies want my money they need to come up with something I want to buy. WOW has it's audience and Blizzard is happy making money even though their game is boring to me and my friends. Fair enough, business is business. But Funcom is loosing people rapidly and can not even hold a fraction of people they sold their game to initially. All complaints against AOC are well founded and if they don't adress them their game deserves to be burried with rest of failed mmos.

I'm looking forward to trashing WARHAMMER if they do a bad job. I didn't find my money on the street and therefore I will not hand it out for free to first software company who reaches out it's hand towards it. If they wan't it they should work hard for it and not just copy overused concepts over and over again. WARHAMMER is no exception. Do well and live or do bad and die (business wise).

As long as a game is released in a finished state, and is fun to play, it will always survive, because the trolls won't have anyone to complain too. We'll all be too busy playing. ;)

---

Originally posted by tunabun
I pray that every single MMO of this generation fails, and every single one in the next generation does as well, until they finally decide it's time to but some actual effort into making something that deserves to be played.  The games coming out currently seem to be made by those who feel just the time, effort and money alone should guarantee a success.  That copying and thieving ideas from successful games WITHOUT actually understanding why those games were a success should work as well or be similarly beneficial.

Fail.  I seriously am angered by how talentless the majority of this industry is becoming.  Where those with talent line the bottom of the industry attempting to scrape their way to the middle, while talentless hacks who simply copy ideas thrive and make game after horrid and unfinished game.

---

LOLOLOLOL, design your own game, dude. Business trys their best to appeal to the masses, and aren't interested in some heretofore undefined perfect MMO. Companies can't invest millions of dollars to design and distribute to some small segment's ideal. Please, please, please design this perfect MMO, then avoiding that "talentless majority", shop your plan and teach everyone EXACTLY how to do it. We'll all hold our collective breath.

Criticism is good for MMOs. Complaining is good for trolls.

The difference? One offers a well thought out reason why something should be changed for the benefit of the game. Enough of the these cricitisms should improve the game ( if the developers know what is best for them).  Complaining tends to discredit any future input you may have about the game. You may even have some good points to make, but if you post history is rife with rants, chances are your insights will be ignored.

Originally posted by eldanloco

N
We are caught in a vicious cycle.

Vanguard Saga of Heroes - Failed
Auto Assault - Failed
Hellgate London - Failed

Age of Conan - Getting a lot of complaints for, in my opinion, a good game.
WAR - Being compared to WoW too much.  STOP DOING THAT!
Everquest II - Came out the same time as WoW, and fell into darkness.

What do you think about this?  Am I spouting nonsense to you, or does what I say sound like the truth?  I hope you all start enjoying games more as a result by trying to have more fun.

Has nothing to do with any cycle. Vanguard was a buggy mess when released, lacked content, and had poor game design. A game that's supposed to encourage grouping, but it had Diplomacy which is a solo mini-game? What genius came up with that?

Auto Assualt, crap. You drive around as a car, in boring terrain, shooting other cars, and that's the whole game.

AoC? Didn't play this one, but knew immediately it was dumbed down to a button mashing fest for a later console release.

EQII was actually pretty good. It had a poor release, but improved over time. They revamped a lot of the game features, and dramatically improved the game. I also liked the EQ2 graphics, and it had a great starter Island.

WAR. Well we don't know about WAR yet do we? I've read the reviews at beta leaks, and it's overall positive. I think you'll have to wait for the NDA drop, or play it yourself to find out for sure, but sounds like WAR will have a solid release.

The only cycle, is devs have put out a lot of shitty games lately. It's hard to design and produce a quality MMO title, but that has nothing to do with comparing games to WOW.

WoW is a solid MMO, and if you're going to compete in this market, you have to release something that isn't a buggy mess, lacking content, with a boring design.

Release a decent game, and it will do fine, WoW or no WoW. Look at EVE. It's a quality game, and does well, in other words it makes a profit. EQ2 also has hung in there for quite some time now.

I have to agree that the examples you selected had more then just player complaints that contributed to their "failure".

That said, LoTRO had a fairly smooth release from all reports on these forums at the time. That game is still around, receives occasional criticism, but on average, is well received.

So, since we can pick one title off the top of my head that does not match your trend, iit might be a case of only seeing the negative these forums have ot offer. Now sure, these forums have plenty of negative to offer for any type of cynic, but I would appreciate it for what it is; consumer response.

this is madness  (sorry the unintended meme)

doctors don't cause disesases

is the other way.

bad games or games with bad elements, will generate critics

Originally posted by eldanloco

Troll gets excited for WAR.

WAR releases, and Troll buys it right away.  Troll plays it for 2 weeks, compares it to WoW nonstop, and ruins his own fun.  Troll goes through the motions and some people hear his opinion and others like his and their opinions are changed about WAR.  Many people leave WAR, it becomes no longer profitable, and is forced to shut down.

thats prolly the most likely thing that will happen to WAR. loads of kiddos that love WoW will jump in the bandwagon out of pure hype,and then will rate their "experience"

people that most probably never heard about DAOC or ever played it for 5 minutes...or,if they did,they actually didnt like it.

people that would rather raid for 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, 2 months straight, for a shiny glove that would give them the shaft against a certain class,since the concept of "skill over gear" is like quantum physics for them...

people that cry and whine and moan everytime they get involved in some sort of PvP...and they are gonna play a game that is 90% based on PvP? yeah right....

WAR is gonna get a ton of horrible feedback from people who bought a product they didnt even know what was about.

and funny enough,they are gonna hate WAR exactly due to its strong points.

some people should never drop WoW.let it keep being the sinkhole for the worse of the worst of the gaming community....

So what if we started to give up our high speed internet n were forced back to dial-up. And the net companies called this an improvement? And they charged you more for the new improved dial-up internet.

Companies are dumping millions of dollars n years of time into the new MMOs. They have better teck, more educated employees, and experience from looking at past releases. Now why should we accept a worse product then 10 years ago?

Vanguard, Auto Assult, Hellgate...why did they fail? Was it cause of troll on these forums or was it cause the games were not up to par? Could it possibly have anything to do with major bugs, teck issues by programmers that rushed a product out the door to make money?

Age of Conan, why did it fail? Now I seen a few ppl claiming the forums are to blame...but seriously. How many ppl actually goto the forums? If the game lived up to it's own hype, we prolly woulda been happy with it. It's problem lies in the devs...not the forums.

EQ2 also was not a bad game...but seemed to miss the mark for alot of ppl. I never got all that interested in this game.

War...not released yet. If it comes out a buggy mess...well I hope to see ppl complaining. If I read these forums n see 90% of the talk of the game bad...I know not to bother with it.

Comparing games to WoW...players shouldn't do this. But developers should. WoW has been goin strong for years now. Any game that comes out needs to compete with WoW. Not to kill it, just compete. So games comming out today should be polished and running decently.  If that happens any game will get a loyal player base.  Devs need to look long term...not just how much they will rake in the first few months...how many players they can keep for years.

Originally posted by arcdevil

 

 

thats prolly the most likely thing that will happen to WAR. loads of kiddos that love WoW will jump in the bandwagon out of pure hype,and then will rate their "experience"

 

people that most probably never heard about DAOC or ever played it for 5 minutes...or,if they did,they actually didnt like it.

people that would rather raid for 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, 2 months straight, for a shiny glove that would give them the shaft against a certain class,since the concept of "skill over gear" is like quantum physics for them...

 

people that cry and whine and moan everytime they get involved in some sort of PvP...and they are gonna play a game that is 90% based on PvP? yeah right....

 

WAR is gonna get a ton of horrible feedback from people who bought a product they didnt even know what was about.

and funny enough,they are gonna hate WAR exactly due to its strong points.

 

some people should never drop WoW.let it keep being the sinkhole for the worse of the worst of the gaming community....

This post is so true and it's funny.   My best friend is in close beta of WAR.  He says it's great and I've heard a lot of other great reviews.  So I'm givinig it a chance.

Honestly, if all the AAA companies stopped developing  the crappy MMOs we have now it would be good for us. It would give room for small companies to develope a good MMO, like in the old days.

What you say is just the opposite of what it has to be done.