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What I am saying is the things people are bringing up are NOT proving their points -- but the statements we have from all parties involved shows that the NGE was SOE's fault and that LEC should never have trusted SOE. Once again to bring up GOOD GAMES that the company makes proves nothing -- everyone bad does something good. I am merely poking holes in people who try and use what happened to KOTOR 2 as any evidence to what happened with SWG. MY point is that all speculative, oustide evidence, all pattern of nehavior evidence cancels itself out, as I have shown, and all we are left with are the actual evidence WE HAVE -- which clearly shows that SOE is to blame for the NGE, and LA never should have let SOE do it. That places most blame on SOE, or at least it should and would in any business relationship. |
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The OP asked a fairly simple question.. I really don't understand why anyone took this into an arguement of blame. In fact every post about it should be removed as off topic and the poster given a 3 to 7 day ban. Sick of seeing this crap and its not useful in any... way.. God forbid any developer came here trying to see actual intellegent feedback.. no wonder all the games are screwed up. They are ALL screwed up or you'd be playing an old game you used to... UO.. DAoC whatever game.. by ANY developer you are probably not there anymore.. because of changes. To the OP... simple answer for me... Go back to Pre-CU... I hate class/level games.. end of story for me on that. All they needed to do was fix, finish and polish. Instead it was all about radical change every step of the way. Its not even about "pre-cu" so much for me.. its about the fact I think that "skill based" design is superiour in every way for an MMO.. and the core issues of level/class based can be see in seen in every MMO that uses that design. oh well.. anyway... have a nice day. Being able to choose the skills you want to use, offers much less variety than pre-made class based systems. -Future Game Developer |
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Well fairly recently quite a few of the old davs have come out of the woodwork to spew their turn of events in the hope of some kind of redemption I guess, you need to ask yourself how easy it would have been for all of them to simply point the finger straight at LA and lay he blame for the CU and NGE fiascos right at the steps of the Lucas ranch. It''d be the easy way out, and more to the point if there had been any truth behind that you can bet your life they'd have all been lining up to blame some mysterious suit at LA rather than take any blame themselves. The 3 or 4 that have been completely outspoken about the changes in SWg during their time on SOE's payroll have one thing in common, I don't think a single one of them has ever so much as mentioned LA, not even a fleeting mention if I remember rightly. SOE takes the full blame for SWG's numerous fuck ups for me, I've got enough hate for Lucas thanks to his desecration of the IP through his increasingly shitty movies ...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought. |
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Originally posted by Fishermage
How does it place the blame soley on SOE? if LA has more control over their games then people say. LA is capable of making a company push out poor quality products but has no ability to control anything else? That makes no sense what so ever. Open your eyes and realize that the blame has already occured for other products with the Star wars IP on it even if SWG was not even in the picture. Bottom line facts are facts and there is not much to "argue' you just dont want to see it. That's fine, but the fact of the matter is its true. |
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Take it out of SOEs hands. For me it wasn't really the fact that they brought in the NGE, after all, it's their game and their business - it was the way in which they dropped it on us that bothered me. The way in which they behaved towards their paying subscribers is inexcusable and unethical. You can't trust SOE with a subscription based payment plan and if you can't trust a company it is not wise to do business with them. You can't trust SOE with any future goals they set for their games. They are not trustworthy, in other words SOE is a bad company so don't give them any money. |
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Originally posted by Mackerni
They have a Rogue type class its called Spy. |
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Originally posted by Fishermage
Let me ask this question then Mr.Fisher if you owned the Star Wars IP and SOE came to you and said hey lets do this and showed you the NGE what would have you done? Now after it was done so to speak you see what it did to your game ,now what? Would you use your Ownweship rights and set it right,or let them continue to mess with it. Since returning to the game I see it getting better,which leads me to believe Lucas Arts simply wants them to improve on what they currently have. I still thing they need to open a few classic servers with full support along with the new version of the game. I am sure this is all impossible now due to the money coming in.Some servers have good populations,while some still have bad populations. Oh well whats done is done really does not matter anymore who did what ,it was still the biggest mistake in mmo history. |
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It doesn't place blame solely on SOE, and I haven't said that, if you had actually taken the time to read what i am writing. I am merely placing MOST blame on SOE, as all the evidence shows. I can see your weak "pattern of behavior" evidence, but it is cancelled out by other "pattern of behavior evidence. This leaves us with the direct evidence which we DI have, all that clearly points to exactly what I am saying. All the evidence you have shown is that SOE and Obsidian are capable of making false promises to LA, and Bioware was not. Both of those companies said they could do X by Date Y -- and could not deliver, Bioware was honest and when they couldn't do something, admitted it. Then LEC went to someone who said they COULD do it, but that turned out not to be true. Those are the "facts" and what they show any reasonable person who doesn't want to defend the unreasonable. Once agin, yes LEC made a mistake -- they SHOULD have trusted Bioware and NOT trusted Obsidian. Similarly, they shoul never have trusted SOE. they made a similar mistake in both cases. |
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I would never have trusted SOE in the first place, and pulled the project when I saw they were incompetent pre-launch. I would have found someone better to make the game, and there never would have been these problems. I would also NEVER have trusted them with the Cu, and would have NOT approved of it, and told them to MAKE THE GAME GOOD some other way. I would have been a much better decision maker. I would NOT have approved of the NGE either. NONE of that is relevant to the discussion though. It still places by far most of the blame with SOE, so I don't really see why you are even bringing this up -- it on;y proves MY point -- SOE was the wrong company to go to for this or any other MMO -- if you want it made ethically. |
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Originally posted by Fishermage
you're telling this to the same people who complain about announcing changes instead of hiding them, these are the people that complain about anything and everything, everyone knows sony screwed up big time in this game, and they complain just as much about the not-yet-released games that Are announcing changes or mistakes Everyone who liked the original SWG *much like the original UO in terms of change over the years* is probably hoping quietly or annoyingly, that bioware doesnt screw this one up. end story is it doesnt matter how they get there, as long as the place they are going is what we will be happy with. "Sometimes, things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. People are basically good. Honor, courage, virtue mean everything. Power and money, money and power mean nothing. Good always triumphs over evil. Love, True Love Never Dies." |
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Originally posted by Fishermage
KotOR 2 shipped in the shape it did because Obsidian blew through the (limited) budget and LEC wasn't willing to pay more. Considering the president of Obsidian posted on their forums that he was actively trying to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3, I don't think they had all that bad of an experience with the supposed "Iron Fist of Lucas". For a guy who is supposed to be a control freak over the Star Wars IP, the Neck seems to be very laid back about the EU stuff (he claims to not read any of the books, because he has people he employs to keep track of that stuff). NwN 2 is a good game now, but that wasn't the case when it was released. When it was released it had several issues that made it almost unplayable. Using KotOR 2 as some sort of proof that LEC caused the problems with SWG is laughable. |
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Originally posted by Fishermage
that was a typo cause i'm too fast, bottom line you want to pile about 99% blame on sony who probably can't say boo withouth LA saying so in most cases. Sony also has the ability to produce a better game by your own admission. Lastly this pattern of producing crappy products was already established and is continuing so even if another company was contracted for the SWG product say ooh bioware some guy would have gone to them and said SHIP IT NOW as they have already done this with kotor2. Hence the mess it was in. Now sony is suddnely repairing a bunch of stuff and adding content. Who do you think told them and/or allowed them to do so? The game was stagnant for what 2 years I think? I know because every once and awhile I wouldl ogin and try to use the thing. IF the only ip sony owns and is running at the time is the Everquest line (that is the only stuff that they own with no strings attached other then I think vanguard which they did not build from the ground up. Everquest 2 is a decent solid mmorpg would you not agree? I dont like the theme and it bores me to tears but its still a solid game. So you dont like their ethics that's one thing, but to say that LA is not responsible for the mess of SWG since sony is in fact being EMPLOYED by them to make the thing and run it is well not making much sense. I'm also ignoring what started out as the insutling and talking down and "pattern" of behaviour.... stuff... |
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Originally posted by efefia
GreenMarine posted in the comments section of the Broken Toys blog that while he was part of the SWG dev team, it was the SOE producers that were directing development. He specifically said it was the SOE, not LEC, producers that were directing what was being done to the game, because they thought they knew better than the players what the players really wanted. He also pointed out that the dev team was primarily comprised of systems designers, which is why they focused on game mechanics instead of adding content. What I find amusing about the who blame arguement is that one side blames both, but primarily SOE, because that is what everything, that has been made public about how things happened, says happened. The other side says LEC is completely to blame because they just feel that is how it happened. It boggles the mind.
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Originally posted by Obee
KotOR 2 shipped in the shape it did because Obsidian blew through the (limited) budget and LEC wasn't willing to pay more. Considering the president of Obsidian posted on their forums that he was actively trying to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3, I don't think they had all that bad of an experience with the supposed "Iron Fist of Lucas". For a guy who is supposed to be a control freak over the Star Wars IP, the Neck seems to be very laid back about the EU stuff (he claims to not read any of the books, because he has people he employs to keep track of that stuff). NwN 2 is a good game now, but that wasn't the case when it was released. When it was released it had several issues that made it almost unplayable. Using KotOR 2 as some sort of proof that LEC caused the problems with SWG is laughable.
so you want to admit that LA would not pay for a better quality product? and then say its not proof of the fact that they are willing to put out shabby stuff? They could have cancelled it and not shipped at all but that is what they did. They shipped a broken product and sold it to peple for money , but somehow LA has no blame in what goes on in any of its games? Why have they not pulled the plug on SWG instead they RENEWED the contract with sony and the game continues? that also makes no sense please elaborate. |
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Originally posted by Obee
GreenMarine posted in the comments section of the Broken Toys blog that while he was part of the SWG dev team, it was the SOE producers that were directing development. He specifically said it was the SOE, not LEC, producers that were directing what was being done to the game, because they thought they knew better than the players what the players really wanted. He also pointed out that the dev team was primarily comprised of systems designers, which is why they focused on game mechanics instead of adding content. What I find amusing about the who blame arguement is that one side blames both, but primarily SOE, because that is what everything, that has been made public about how things happened, says happened. The other side says LEC is completely to blame because they just feel that is how it happened. It boggles the mind.
The word "no" comes to mind, but no one uttered it. Instead LA said "yes" because they managed to "sell it to the guy upstairs"... |
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Originally posted by ummax
so you want to admit that LA would not pay for a better quality product? and then say its not proof of the fact that they are willing to put out shabby stuff? They could have cancelled it and not shipped at all but that is what they did. They shipped a broken product and sold it to peple for money , but somehow LA has no blame in what goes on in any of its games? Why have they not pulled the plug on SWG? that also makes no sense please elaborate.
Who has claimed that LEC has no blame for the shape SWG is currently in? I've yet to see anyone make that claim, except for people like yourself who are claiming that people are making the claim. I've also not seen anyone make the claim that LEC hasn't put out products that were complete crap. LEC has been focused on poor quality Star Wars games for years. When they hire a quality developer to make games for them, they end up with quality games (KotOR, the Jedi Knight/Dark Forces games, Empire at War, etc.). When they hire poor quality developers to make games for them, we end up with stuff like the NGE. When they develop their own games, they are very much hit and miss (mostly miss for the last several years). As for why LEC hasn't shut down SWG, I honestly have no clue. I would assume they mistakenly believe that keeping SWG live is having some sort of positive effect, as opposed to damaging the potential viablility of a future MMO using the IP. What we do know, from the folks who were actually there and involved, is that the folks at LEC did not force SOE to make the changes to the game that has caused the game to be in the pathertic state it is currently in. It was the folks from SOE that convinced the folks at LEC that the changes would make the game better and increase the subscription numbers. SOE's primary function is to make MMORPGs, LEC's function is a publisher/developer of single player games. The folks at SOE were supposed to be experts in their field. As for KotOR 2, had the folks at Obsidian not released some of the design docs for the content that was cut, nobody would think KotOR 2 was anything more than a game that wasn't as good as the first one. It was a complete game, one that would have been much better had what was cut been included, but it wasn't shipped as an incomplete or broken product. Content is cut all the time to make release dates, or because of budget constraints. Obsidian set about building a game that required a much larger budget than they had, so things had to be cut. They didn't seem to upset about it, considering they tried to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3. They are very open to admitting they made a bunch of mistakes while developing KotOR 2, and claim to have learned from the experience.
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Originally posted by Obee
so you want to admit that LA would not pay for a better quality product? and then say its not proof of the fact that they are willing to put out shabby stuff? They could have cancelled it and not shipped at all but that is what they did. They shipped a broken product and sold it to peple for money , but somehow LA has no blame in what goes on in any of its games? Why have they not pulled the plug on SWG? that also makes no sense please elaborate.
Who has claimed that LEC has no blame for the shape SWG is currently in? I've yet to see anyone make that claim, except for people like yourself who are claiming that people are making the claim. I've also not seen anyone make the claim that LEC hasn't put out products that were complete crap. LEC has been focused on poor quality Star Wars games for years. When they hire a quality developer to make games for them, they end up with quality games (KotOR, the Jedi Knight/Dark Forces games, Empire at War, etc.). When they hire poor quality developers to make games for them, we end up with stuff like the NGE. When they develop their own games, they are very much hit and miss (mostly miss for the last several years). As for why LEC hasn't shut down SWG, I honestly have no clue. I would assume they mistakenly believe that keeping SWG live is having some sort of positive effect, as opposed to damaging the potential viablility of a future MMO using the IP. What we do know, from the folks who were actually there and involved, is that the folks at LEC did not force SOE to make the changes to the game that has caused the game to be in the pathertic state it is currently in. It was the folks from SOE that convinced the folks at LEC that the changes would make the game better and increase the subscription numbers. SOE's primary function is to make MMORPGs, LEC's function is a publisher/developer of single player games. The folks at SOE were supposed to be experts in their field. As for KotOR 2, had the folks at Obsidian not released some of the design docs for the content that was cut, nobody would think KotOR 2 was anything more than a game that wasn't as good as the first one. It was a complete game, one that would have been much better had what was cut been included, but it wasn't shipped as an incomplete or broken product. Content is cut all the time to make release dates, or because of budget constraints. Obsidian set about building a game that required a much larger budget than they had, so things had to be cut. They didn't seem to upset about it, considering they tried to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3. They are very open to admitting they made a bunch of mistakes while developing KotOR 2, and claim to have learned from the experience.
interesting but the tidal wave of threads that blame soe and when people try to say something about it say that LA is only responsible for like signing the paycheques. Its all over these forums and all of a sudden there is a shift? Its funny that but these forums dont reflect that any blame is placed on them. IN fact the first time I said to people "hey you guys buy LA's stuff" and they had something to do with it I was shouted down. What people say is not reflecting that anyone will even slightly acknowledge it unless some pushing is done. Then and only then wil people begrudglingly admit that LA played a "small part" usualy tiny infintesimal when its their money, they IP and ultimately their game that they still sell in their boxes on their website. Now people seem to not have a problem with "forgiving" LEC, bioware for the kotor screw up but they wont give a dime to sony. Now sony has openly admitted even the smedley guy that they went to far and that they wont be doing that again. I have seen people openly deny that Sony apologized even though they have. Somehow everyone can find it in their hearts to forgive LA and bioware, but wont give the same consideration to sony. Yet as we speak sony is putting things into the game (that LA lets them) to make it better. Things work. Somehow though the fact that there is no classic CU server is of course only sony's fault. The entire point of what is being said around here is what would it take to get some people back. Everyone points to sony alone not LA the guy who owns the thing and pays the bills. Somehow its only sony's decision to upt in CU servers and LA has no say over it? Its LA's money and LA"s game. If the changes that people seem to want (rollback servers) are not forthcoming then 50% of the reason (the word yes) would ahve to come from LA along with the funding and manpower, but its not forthcoming, but somehow the lack of these servers is just a sony thing. When I see some threads pulling LA apart the way people dismantle sony then maybe I will believe that people actualy place some reasonable amount of blame on LA as they should until then this forums shouds "i hate sony" and nothing more and its pretty much misplaced and should have like its own forum under sony or something and that was the point of what was said about a page or so back. |
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The point is, at EVERy step of the game SOE had LEC by the short hairs. Pre-launch, either they pull the plug on the game; release the game VERY late (it was already released late, VERY late), and lose money, or let the release the game before it was ready to ship. that was mistake one. The next mistake was trusting SOE to make the game work over time, which they did not. So then SOE comes and blames the reason they couldn't fix the game on Koster's design, and say if they simplify the game, they'll be able to balance the combat, fix the bugs, and add content (ie, they lie). Now, LEC has two choices, either you pull the plug on the game or let them try the CU. that was another mistake. That fails. Not on;y does it not make matters better, things get worse, and as we have learned from dan Rubenfeld the loss of customers INCREASES. So you turn back to SOE and say, what now? Now you can EITHER SHUT THE GAME down or trust them AGAIN. They chose the latter, once again, and once again, it failed. At each stage of the game, LA's alternative was to shut down and pull the plug, vs trust SOE. At each stage SOE pissed on that trust and made the situation worse. Who should get most of the blame? The answer is easy if you are without a pro-SOE bias. |
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Originally posted by Fishermage Sometimes I just cannot help myself ,but it is funny to watch how serious you are about this subject,It is clear now how passionate you are about it lol. Dude I can post my opinion if I want and it makes no difference to me what you think.I could care less. You can Hate SOE for the rest of your life and I still will not care. The point is no matter how much proof and fact you post here Lucas Arts has had and still has the power to fix what the NGE did. The reason they do not do anything is because they were for it as well.Now you posted some interesting stuff,but in the end I still hold more blame on Lucas Arts than I do SOE. SOE works for Lucas Arts on this game,not the other way around. Have a good time flaming and bashing me all you want I still blame Lucas Arts for this major screw up.SOE has alot to do with it as well,but the final say so rests on Lucas Arts. Anyway I am off to go play enjoy yourself in whaterver game you play now:P |
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Originally posted by Fishermage
There was nothing stoping LA from refusing to renew the IP (as it was just renewed and everyone knows it.. ) and contracting another company to take ALL that content every drop of it and run it and work on it absolutely NOTHING, but that's not what they just did. They gave sony the right to continue on the present path period. |
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And I am ignoring your personal attacks as well, like when you are calling me blind. the fact is, when I hire someone to do a job, and they say they can do it, and they fail, that is partially MY fault for trusting them, but it is 99% (or whatever per cent) THEIR fault for screwing up. The employer is NOT to blame when the employee is dishonest and screws up. It becomes esoecially problematic when the the employer only has two choices: close down the whole project or give the employee a chance to make things better. This is a no-brainer. |
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We don't know the financial relationship, but what we do know is when you hire to do something, and they screw it up, it is upthe them to EAT IT and pay for the fix up. Again you are merely proving my point, in showing how SOE had LEC by the short hairs and they had two choices, let SOE screw thngs up and/or continue to screw things up, or shut down the whole project. This was a position completely created by SOE's screw-up, not LA. |
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I agree, and as I have said, for that they are to blame. That still makes the whole mess way more SOE's fault than LA's. This makesLA guilty of trusting SOE, which is what I have said. |
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You know, quoting every single thing you argue to the point which 90% of the post is just quotations is kind of silly. Be a dear and delete everything but the actual new point in which you are talking about or arguing against? That's what I do..... |
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In other words you are angry about something that has happened in other threads and are carrying that grudge here. Why does it matter to you what people say about SONY? why does it all get you so upset that you can't let it go? No one is 'shouting anyone down, " nor can anyone "shout anyone down" on a forum. What areyou talking about. We are all just typing here. Why take it all so personally. YOU are NOT SONY, are you? I am certainly not LEC, and I could care less what people say about it. I care only about the truth and evidence, and have hope that the debacle will not be repeated. I merely share the evidence I have seen over the years, and discount the speculative as it should be discounted, andwhen someone brings forth pattern of behavior "evidence," which is questionable at best, I show how SOE is guilty of it's own pattern of bahavior in all their games, and show how it has even led to making their good games unsuccessful. I don't get upset, angry, or shout, I merely exchange reasons for reasons, and if someone ever shows me better reasons than mine, I'll change my opinion on a dime. All you have shared is the same tired nonsense I have seen before, and gotten all upset about it when I disagree with you (as usual). |
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