Originally posted by Kurush

Originally posted by ProfRed

Originally posted by TheGrid

 

 

First off, you're not old, commissar.  You might think you're aged or experienced by comparing yourself to the teenagers in your MMORPG guild, but you're not.  You're twenty six.  Even if you started playing games when you were six or seven, you wouldn't have seen the generation of games that were really different.

Second, here is your problem: you are burned out.  You have grinded your fingers away by doing shitty, repetitive stuff you don't like, and because of this, you will probably never enjoy a MMORPG in the same way again.  You have ruined it for yourself.  Congratulations.  Next time have the balls to walk away from a game before you start hating it with a passion, not five to six months after that point like most of the "vets" here do.  You've reached the point where you hate games without even playing them, before they're even released, and that's not a good thing.

Lastly, there are still games left that are like what you think you want.  Do you know what the problem is?  People like you never play them.  You just talk and talk about how you want the return of sandbox games, and how you will sacrifice X, Y, Z, and hypothetical letter &, if it only the game had sandbox features.  Then all the sandbox games that get released die because people like you leave them in droves.  Why?   According to all the bitching I've seen in the past, it's because they have the following problems.

1. Not polished enough.

2. Not enough PvE content.

Yep.  Before NGE, those were the two massive complaints about SWG from its players.  Fix the bugs, add more content.  Every fucking SWG thread had a dozen people calling for that.  Were they willing to tolerate the game as-is?  Nope.  People were jumping ship in massive numbers because of those problems.  On about half of the servers, 95% of the player towns were deserted, most of the major merchants were gone, and almost all of the locations were dead.  The forums were filled completely with bitching about how bad the game was.  This was before CU.  Before CU.  Repeated, before CU.  Because some people will ignore this part, before CU.  Because some people still don't get it, before CU.  Just to make it clear:

BEFORE CU

BEFORE CU

BEFORE CU

B E F O R E   C U

 

No SWG vet will admit this because of their wonderful selective memory, but you can see it on any SWG forum which has posts going back that far.

It's the same shit that people say about Saga of Ryzom.  Seriously, go to the boards.  I've seen most of the sandbox enthusiasts on MMORPG.com talk about how they couldn't play Ryzom because there was no content after the newbie island.  By content, they mean quests, the exact same shit they claim to hate.  Go look right now.

Oh, and lets talk about UO.  Most of the "veterans" here bitch about how "Trammies" ruined the game.  This is so hilarious disconnected from reality that it's completely absurd.  Trammel doubled UO's then-declining population, essentially breathing life into a game whose FFA nature would have killed it in about two or three years more.  After Trammel saved it, many people later left it because they didn't like _new classes_ because they didn't _fit with the game_.  Oh God, the new classes ruined the sandbox!

In summation, your life will perpetually be despair and sadness.  You think you want a sandbox game at any cost, but you don't.  You want a game which is everything at once.  Sandbox + perfect PvP + WoW's amount of quests + completely polished + hires Spanish swimwear models that come give you BJ's every half-hour.  You will never be satisfied, and every good sandbox game that comes along will not be played by you because it is only good and not perfect.

I hope this has clarified your situation for you, thank you for playing.

I have to say, this reply is one of the best I've read to-date.  It made me laugh, it made me cry and in the end I learned something.

---

Originally posted by TheGrid

The only feasible way to do it would be to make a game that's geared directly to group play. We'll see how long that'll last.
 

---

By my count, over six years and still going strong.

Originally posted by ProfRed

I cancelled my Warhammer preorder today.  Not because of the cuts or in respone to anything over the last few months, but because everything about Warhammer feels stale to me.  No, it's not fair to just talk about Warhammer.  I am talking about 90% of the MMO's that have come out or are coming out.  I guess i'm burnt out on the typical MMO fair that doesn't seem to change at all in any way except for getting easier and more accessible to unintelligent people.  Sorry that was rude.  I don't mean unintelligent people, but unexperienced people. 

I'm not an elitist, but it is so close that it's easy to blur.  It's like if you spent years learning the ins and outs of something difficult, but rewarding.  Something like programming.  Then all of a sudden everything coming out is geared towards people who are new to whatever that thing is that you spent years and years learning and it bores the crap out of you.  Everything is all about instant gratification, and getting more for less.  It's almost like your favorite underground music selling out and putting stuff out that sounds like all the other crap out there.  Only it's the entire musical World that's selling out because Indy musicians can't afford and don't have an outlet to put out their creativity(Still a metaphor).  All we get is creativity controlled, monitored, fabricated, and manufactured by people who aren't creative, who look at what is selling and try to copy it and expand on it. 

I hope people have fun with Warhammer, but honestly I hope they either provide an experience that doesn't feel like every other MMO in a different skin, or they fail horribly and give future companies a reason to break the mold.  Sorry that was rude.  I really hope for their success because I want every entry in the genre to be successful for more variety.  Deep down though it's driving me crazy...  The waiting for years and years for something revolutionary to come along only to find the only things coming out are going in the oppsosite direction of everything great about the old games. 

I know money talks.  I am just full of sadness and despair that our entire genre is selling itself out. 

These days kids want it fast, and older gamers and all the new gamers want easy game and dont wanne to be crushed by those who are still hardcore, so you get more and more themepark games with no thinking.

Many working players these days say i want same as ones who play 15hours a day and just buy on ebay.

Or play games that punish hardcore players and reward the casuals, the big themepark games of today give that reward, and even then many are cheating there way to top buying complete equipped avatars.

Thats reality of todays game,s

Originally posted by Kurush

Originally posted by ProfRed

Originally posted by TheGrid

The genre has always been this way.

Grinding, pointless quests, stale combat, repetitive raiding - these are the very definition of "MMORPG" as a genre.

99.9% of MMOs out there will have at least 3 of those factors.

 

At least with older games it used to be rewarding, difficult, and had a deep social sense.  Now all there is are people who want to solo to end game.  Get there fast and screw enjoying it.  That's just crazy talk.  Group?  No thanks we only have 4 quests in common and i'd rather do my 4 than help you with the one or two you still need to do.  Over half the groups you get invited to the people don't talk.. they just mindlessly get the quest done and leave.  It was a huge hassle for them to even have to invite you because they couldn't do it themselves.  Role playing?  No that doesn't happen anymore.  Not only does it not exist... It's been completely exterminated.

Games are designed for soloing.  They are designed to be easy, accessible, and mindnumbingly balanced.  Skill?  No that's an unfair advantage.  What we focus on here is time invested.  It's like if in real life two people spent 200 hours boxing, but one only hit a punching bag while the other boxed real people in real fights.  Only after those 200 hours they are 100% equally balanced. 

 

First off, you're not old, commissar.  You might think you're aged or experienced by comparing yourself to the teenagers in your MMORPG guild, but you're not.  You're twenty six.  Even if you started playing games when you were six or seven, you wouldn't have seen the generation of games that were really different.

Second, here is your problem: you are burned out.  You have grinded your fingers away by doing shitty, repetitive stuff you don't like, and because of this, you will probably never enjoy a MMORPG in the same way again.  You have ruined it for yourself.  Congratulations.  Next time have the balls to walk away from a game before you start hating it with a passion, not five to six months after that point like most of the "vets" here do.  You've reached the point where you hate games without even playing them, before they're even released, and that's not a good thing.

Lastly, there are still games left that are like what you think you want.  Do you know what the problem is?  People like you never play them.  You just talk and talk about how you want the return of sandbox games, and how you will sacrifice X, Y, Z, and hypothetical letter &, if it only the game had sandbox features.  Then all the sandbox games that get released die because people like you leave them in droves.  Why?   According to all the bitching I've seen in the past, it's because they have the following problems.

1. Not polished enough.

2. Not enough PvE content.

Yep.  Before NGE, those were the two massive complaints about SWG from its players.  Fix the bugs, add more content.  Every fucking SWG thread had a dozen people calling for that.  Were they willing to tolerate the game as-is?  Nope.  People were jumping ship in massive numbers because of those problems.  On about half of the servers, 95% of the player towns were deserted, most of the major merchants were gone, and almost all of the locations were dead.  The forums were filled completely with bitching about how bad the game was.  This was before CU.  Before CU.  Repeated, before CU.  Because some people will ignore this part, before CU.  Because some people still don't get it, before CU.  Just to make it clear:

BEFORE CU

BEFORE CU

BEFORE CU

B E F O R E   C U

 

No SWG vet will admit this because of their wonderful selective memory, but you can see it on any SWG forum which has posts going back that far.

It's the same shit that people say about Saga of Ryzom.  Seriously, go to the boards.  I've seen most of the sandbox enthusiasts on MMORPG.com talk about how they couldn't play Ryzom because there was no content after the newbie island.  By content, they mean quests, the exact same shit they claim to hate.  Go look right now.

Oh, and lets talk about UO.  Most of the "veterans" here bitch about how "Trammies" ruined the game.  This is so hilarious disconnected from reality that it's completely absurd.  Trammel doubled UO's then-declining population, essentially breathing life into a game whose FFA nature would have killed it in about two or three years more.  After Trammel saved it, many people later left it because they didn't like _new classes_ because they didn't _fit with the game_.  Oh God, the new classes ruined the sandbox!

In summation, your life will perpetually be despair and sadness.  You think you want a sandbox game at any cost, but you don't.  You want a game which is everything at once.  Sandbox + perfect PvP + WoW's amount of quests + completely polished + hires Spanish swimwear models that come give you BJ's every half-hour.  You will never be satisfied, and every good sandbox game that comes along will not be played by you because it is only good and not perfect.

I hope this has clarified your situation for you, thank you for playing.

I dont know OP so i cant say what you claim he is, but maybe for some or alot of vets your prolly right, again i don't know becouse i don't know many vets here, what there past experience is.
 

But if you like to play a sandbox game with above avarage gameplay and maybe with open pvp, there are not many games outthere to play, and games like WAR are 100% themepark games, i would not even try it becouse i dont like themepark games.

And its also about taste some like surten games and some dont so if a sandbox game is out there, its posible that becouse of surten type of game like example EVE its a spacegame its posible sandbox game lovers still dont like it becouse of space genre.

But ive played for years sandbox games online and offline and at moment it looks bad on that front, i play my older solo games now from years ago so i have something to do:).

But my hope is darkfall and maybe not sure yet mortal online.

When i play a game i play it for a while unless they put in such stupid featers to help casuals ill quit game.

Im not burnout and ive played many games even themepark games but they are not a challenge there just simple grind games with shiny gear and quests that even a kid 6 years old can play(wow,AoC to name a few).

You have a good point for some but your claim on how these players are you cant not generalise all hardcore under one and same type, some maybe like you describe, but not all are same.

If you love themepark games thats fine, let others love only sandbox games:)

It's so odd to me how people decide to focus on the biggest, shiniest products and complain about their trends...completely ignoring the many smaller-budget games that exist and fulfill their needs.

Originally posted by Kurush

Originally posted by ProfRed

Originally posted by TheGrid

The genre has always been this way.

Grinding, pointless quests, stale combat, repetitive raiding - these are the very definition of "MMORPG" as a genre.

99.9% of MMOs out there will have at least 3 of those factors.

 

At least with older games it used to be rewarding, difficult, and had a deep social sense.  Now all there is are people who want to solo to end game.  Get there fast and screw enjoying it.  That's just crazy talk.  Group?  No thanks we only have 4 quests in common and i'd rather do my 4 than help you with the one or two you still need to do.  Over half the groups you get invited to the people don't talk.. they just mindlessly get the quest done and leave.  It was a huge hassle for them to even have to invite you because they couldn't do it themselves.  Role playing?  No that doesn't happen anymore.  Not only does it not exist... It's been completely exterminated.

Games are designed for soloing.  They are designed to be easy, accessible, and mindnumbingly balanced.  Skill?  No that's an unfair advantage.  What we focus on here is time invested.  It's like if in real life two people spent 200 hours boxing, but one only hit a punching bag while the other boxed real people in real fights.  Only after those 200 hours they are 100% equally balanced. 

 

First off, you're not old, commissar.  You might think you're aged or experienced by comparing yourself to the teenagers in your MMORPG guild, but you're not.  You're twenty six.  Even if you started playing games when you were six or seven, you wouldn't have seen the generation of games that were really different.

Second, here is your problem: you are burned out.  You have grinded your fingers away by doing shitty, repetitive stuff you don't like, and because of this, you will probably never enjoy a MMORPG in the same way again.  You have ruined it for yourself.  Congratulations.  Next time have the balls to walk away from a game before you start hating it with a passion, not five to six months after that point like most of the "vets" here do.  You've reached the point where you hate games without even playing them, before they're even released, and that's not a good thing.

Lastly, there are still games left that are like what you think you want.  Do you know what the problem is?  People like you never play them.  You just talk and talk about how you want the return of sandbox games, and how you will sacrifice X, Y, Z, and hypothetical letter &, if it only the game had sandbox features.  Then all the sandbox games that get released die because people like you leave them in droves.  Why?   According to all the bitching I've seen in the past, it's because they have the following problems.

1. Not polished enough.

2. Not enough PvE content.

Yep.  Before NGE, those were the two massive complaints about SWG from its players.  Fix the bugs, add more content.  Every fucking SWG thread had a dozen people calling for that.  Were they willing to tolerate the game as-is?  Nope.  People were jumping ship in massive numbers because of those problems.  On about half of the servers, 95% of the player towns were deserted, most of the major merchants were gone, and almost all of the locations were dead.  The forums were filled completely with bitching about how bad the game was.  This was before CU.  Before CU.  Repeated, before CU.  Because some people will ignore this part, before CU.  Because some people still don't get it, before CU.  Just to make it clear:

BEFORE CU

BEFORE CU

BEFORE CU

B E F O R E   C U

 

No SWG vet will admit this because of their wonderful selective memory, but you can see it on any SWG forum which has posts going back that far.

It's the same shit that people say about Saga of Ryzom.  Seriously, go to the boards.  I've seen most of the sandbox enthusiasts on MMORPG.com talk about how they couldn't play Ryzom because there was no content after the newbie island.  By content, they mean quests, the exact same shit they claim to hate.  Go look right now.

Oh, and lets talk about UO.  Most of the "veterans" here bitch about how "Trammies" ruined the game.  This is so hilarious disconnected from reality that it's completely absurd.  Trammel doubled UO's then-declining population, essentially breathing life into a game whose FFA nature would have killed it in about two or three years more.  After Trammel saved it, many people later left it because they didn't like _new classes_ because they didn't _fit with the game_.  Oh God, the new classes ruined the sandbox!

In summation, your life will perpetually be despair and sadness.  You think you want a sandbox game at any cost, but you don't.  You want a game which is everything at once.  Sandbox + perfect PvP + WoW's amount of quests + completely polished + hires Spanish swimwear models that come give you BJ's every half-hour.  You will never be satisfied, and every good sandbox game that comes along will not be played by you because it is only good and not perfect.

I hope this has clarified your situation for you, thank you for playing.

Young man, you may think you've been around the block a few times, but trust me when I say "You haven't been around more blocks than me."

I've been playing games ever since you were a little cub sucking on yer momma's teet. Back in those days we didn't have computers. We didn't have fancy monitors and fancy screens. Hell we didn't even have a got damn mouse. All we had were our fingers and our good ole fashion noggin. We had to make due with what we have and we did. We surely did. 

Back in our day we didn't have developers being pain thousands of dollars to give us content. We had to create our own content. We had to develop our own stories. We made stuff up. We had to pull shit out of our arse just to make things interesting. And if that wasn't enough we'd drink prune juice and shove suppositories up our rears 'till we passed out or shit ourselves silly.

The bottom line is in my day we made things come alive. We used our imagination to make our dreams come true. Now a days, all these young whipper-snappers want to be spoon fed. They want the got damn developers to change their got damn diapers every time they shit themselves. They simply have no idea how to wipe their arse without the developers holding their hands.

Well, that's all I got to say for now. Didn't mean to get vulgar. I guess hemroids can really make a man cranky, even if you are a King.

KingCarebear

Lord of the diapers

Originally posted by KingCarebear

Originally posted by Kurush

Originally posted by ProfRed

Originally posted by TheGrid

The genre has always been this way.

Grinding, pointless quests, stale combat, repetitive raiding - these are the very definition of "MMORPG" as a genre.

99.9% of MMOs out there will have at least 3 of those factors.

 

At least with older games it used to be rewarding, difficult, and had a deep social sense.  Now all there is are people who want to solo to end game.  Get there fast and screw enjoying it.  That's just crazy talk.  Group?  No thanks we only have 4 quests in common and i'd rather do my 4 than help you with the one or two you still need to do.  Over half the groups you get invited to the people don't talk.. they just mindlessly get the quest done and leave.  It was a huge hassle for them to even have to invite you because they couldn't do it themselves.  Role playing?  No that doesn't happen anymore.  Not only does it not exist... It's been completely exterminated.

Games are designed for soloing.  They are designed to be easy, accessible, and mindnumbingly balanced.  Skill?  No that's an unfair advantage.  What we focus on here is time invested.  It's like if in real life two people spent 200 hours boxing, but one only hit a punching bag while the other boxed real people in real fights.  Only after those 200 hours they are 100% equally balanced. 

 

First off, you're not old, commissar.  You might think you're aged or experienced by comparing yourself to the teenagers in your MMORPG guild, but you're not.  You're twenty six.  Even if you started playing games when you were six or seven, you wouldn't have seen the generation of games that were really different.

Second, here is your problem: you are burned out.  You have grinded your fingers away by doing shitty, repetitive stuff you don't like, and because of this, you will probably never enjoy a MMORPG in the same way again.  You have ruined it for yourself.  Congratulations.  Next time have the balls to walk away from a game before you start hating it with a passion, not five to six months after that point like most of the "vets" here do.  You've reached the point where you hate games without even playing them, before they're even released, and that's not a good thing.

Lastly, there are still games left that are like what you think you want.  Do you know what the problem is?  People like you never play them.  You just talk and talk about how you want the return of sandbox games, and how you will sacrifice X, Y, Z, and hypothetical letter &, if it only the game had sandbox features.  Then all the sandbox games that get released die because people like you leave them in droves.  Why?   According to all the bitching I've seen in the past, it's because they have the following problems.

1. Not polished enough.

2. Not enough PvE content.

Yep.  Before NGE, those were the two massive complaints about SWG from its players.  Fix the bugs, add more content.  Every fucking SWG thread had a dozen people calling for that.  Were they willing to tolerate the game as-is?  Nope.  People were jumping ship in massive numbers because of those problems.  On about half of the servers, 95% of the player towns were deserted, most of the major merchants were gone, and almost all of the locations were dead.  The forums were filled completely with bitching about how bad the game was.  This was before CU.  Before CU.  Repeated, before CU.  Because some people will ignore this part, before CU.  Because some people still don't get it, before CU.  Just to make it clear:

BEFORE CU

BEFORE CU

BEFORE CU

B E F O R E   C U

 

No SWG vet will admit this because of their wonderful selective memory, but you can see it on any SWG forum which has posts going back that far.

It's the same shit that people say about Saga of Ryzom.  Seriously, go to the boards.  I've seen most of the sandbox enthusiasts on MMORPG.com talk about how they couldn't play Ryzom because there was no content after the newbie island.  By content, they mean quests, the exact same shit they claim to hate.  Go look right now.

Oh, and lets talk about UO.  Most of the "veterans" here bitch about how "Trammies" ruined the game.  This is so hilarious disconnected from reality that it's completely absurd.  Trammel doubled UO's then-declining population, essentially breathing life into a game whose FFA nature would have killed it in about two or three years more.  After Trammel saved it, many people later left it because they didn't like _new classes_ because they didn't _fit with the game_.  Oh God, the new classes ruined the sandbox!

In summation, your life will perpetually be despair and sadness.  You think you want a sandbox game at any cost, but you don't.  You want a game which is everything at once.  Sandbox + perfect PvP + WoW's amount of quests + completely polished + hires Spanish swimwear models that come give you BJ's every half-hour.  You will never be satisfied, and every good sandbox game that comes along will not be played by you because it is only good and not perfect.

I hope this has clarified your situation for you, thank you for playing.

 

Young man, you may think you've been around the block a few times, but trust me when I say "You haven't been around more blocks than me."

I've been playing games ever since you were a little cub sucking on yer momma's teet. Back in those days we didn't have computers. We didn't have fancy monitors and fancy screens. Hell we didn't even have a got damn mouse. All we had were our fingers and our good ole fashion noggin. We had to make due with what we have and we did. We surely did. 

Back in our day we didn't have developers being pain thousands of dollars to give us content. We had to create our own content. We had to develop our own stories. We made stuff up. We had to pull shit out of our arse just to make things interesting. And if that wasn't enough we'd drink prune juice and shove suppositories up our rears 'till we passed out or shit ourselves silly.

The bottom line is in my day we made things come alive. We used our imagination to make our dreams come true. Now a days, all these young whipper-snappers want to be spoon fed. They want the got damn developers to change their got damn diapers every time they shit themselves. They simply have no idea how to wipe their arse without the developers holding their hands.

Well, that's all I got to say for now. Didn't mean to get vulgar. I guess hemroids can really make a man cranky, even if you are a King.

KingCarebear

Lord of the diapers

Well you sir where vulgar and cranky hehe.

But  first of all peeps pay everymonth for the game they play and pay prolly 50 bucks to, back in 70's or even 60's you had rather simple board games, that did not cost much.

These days the the diaper kids(i say many adults still same as kids :P)demand more thats just this day and age, we cant comepare 60's or 70's with today.

If its constructive critsims i dont mind if they complain its only that a few whine alot, but its still free internet so let them, who cares anyway...ahh ok you KINGCAREBEAR thats right you have to uphold your name and whine some hehe.

I agree with the OP to some extent and I do think developers of the bigger games are really playing safe now, however I don't think it's working for them as well as they'd like. I don't have figures but my guess is a lot of games aren't keeping their subscribers as well as they'd hoped. WOW has set a very high benchmark for the general mass market gamer interested in the MMO genre and I think if games want to appeal to people long term they need to do something quite different from, what is seen as the game by which all other MMO's are measured.

Second Life and Eve are two games I can think of that can not really be closely compared to WOW and I believe both are still doing quite nicely.

The problem with developing a really, really good MMO is that it would take a freaking supercomputer to run the game. Everything everyone wants is either beyond the current technology or would just be so difficult to program, no developer would even bother trying.

Wait 10 years. Maybe by then the mainstream computers will be able to handle a really good MMO.

And personally, I'd like to see an MMO that didn't have pure PvE at all. Grinding and PvE quests need to die, period.

Originally posted by KingCarebear

Originally posted by Kurush

Originally posted by ProfRed

Originally posted by TheGrid

The genre has always been this way.

Grinding, pointless quests, stale combat, repetitive raiding - these are the very definition of "MMORPG" as a genre.

99.9% of MMOs out there will have at least 3 of those factors.

 

At least with older games it used to be rewarding, difficult, and had a deep social sense.  Now all there is are people who want to solo to end game.  Get there fast and screw enjoying it.  That's just crazy talk.  Group?  No thanks we only have 4 quests in common and i'd rather do my 4 than help you with the one or two you still need to do.  Over half the groups you get invited to the people don't talk.. they just mindlessly get the quest done and leave.  It was a huge hassle for them to even have to invite you because they couldn't do it themselves.  Role playing?  No that doesn't happen anymore.  Not only does it not exist... It's been completely exterminated.

Games are designed for soloing.  They are designed to be easy, accessible, and mindnumbingly balanced.  Skill?  No that's an unfair advantage.  What we focus on here is time invested.  It's like if in real life two people spent 200 hours boxing, but one only hit a punching bag while the other boxed real people in real fights.  Only after those 200 hours they are 100% equally balanced. 

 

First off, you're not old, commissar.  You might think you're aged or experienced by comparing yourself to the teenagers in your MMORPG guild, but you're not.  You're twenty six.  Even if you started playing games when you were six or seven, you wouldn't have seen the generation of games that were really different.

Second, here is your problem: you are burned out.  You have grinded your fingers away by doing shitty, repetitive stuff you don't like, and because of this, you will probably never enjoy a MMORPG in the same way again.  You have ruined it for yourself.  Congratulations.  Next time have the balls to walk away from a game before you start hating it with a passion, not five to six months after that point like most of the "vets" here do.  You've reached the point where you hate games without even playing them, before they're even released, and that's not a good thing.

Lastly, there are still games left that are like what you think you want.  Do you know what the problem is?  People like you never play them.  You just talk and talk about how you want the return of sandbox games, and how you will sacrifice X, Y, Z, and hypothetical letter &, if it only the game had sandbox features.  Then all the sandbox games that get released die because people like you leave them in droves.  Why?   According to all the bitching I've seen in the past, it's because they have the following problems.

1. Not polished enough.

2. Not enough PvE content.

Yep.  Before NGE, those were the two massive complaints about SWG from its players.  Fix the bugs, add more content.  Every fucking SWG thread had a dozen people calling for that.  Were they willing to tolerate the game as-is?  Nope.  People were jumping ship in massive numbers because of those problems.  On about half of the servers, 95% of the player towns were deserted, most of the major merchants were gone, and almost all of the locations were dead.  The forums were filled completely with bitching about how bad the game was.  This was before CU.  Before CU.  Repeated, before CU.  Because some people will ignore this part, before CU.  Because some people still don't get it, before CU.  Just to make it clear:

BEFORE CU

BEFORE CU

BEFORE CU

B E F O R E   C U

 

No SWG vet will admit this because of their wonderful selective memory, but you can see it on any SWG forum which has posts going back that far.

It's the same shit that people say about Saga of Ryzom.  Seriously, go to the boards.  I've seen most of the sandbox enthusiasts on MMORPG.com talk about how they couldn't play Ryzom because there was no content after the newbie island.  By content, they mean quests, the exact same shit they claim to hate.  Go look right now.

Oh, and lets talk about UO.  Most of the "veterans" here bitch about how "Trammies" ruined the game.  This is so hilarious disconnected from reality that it's completely absurd.  Trammel doubled UO's then-declining population, essentially breathing life into a game whose FFA nature would have killed it in about two or three years more.  After Trammel saved it, many people later left it because they didn't like _new classes_ because they didn't _fit with the game_.  Oh God, the new classes ruined the sandbox!

In summation, your life will perpetually be despair and sadness.  You think you want a sandbox game at any cost, but you don't.  You want a game which is everything at once.  Sandbox + perfect PvP + WoW's amount of quests + completely polished + hires Spanish swimwear models that come give you BJ's every half-hour.  You will never be satisfied, and every good sandbox game that comes along will not be played by you because it is only good and not perfect.

I hope this has clarified your situation for you, thank you for playing.

 

Young man, you may think you've been around the block a few times, but trust me when I say "You haven't been around more blocks than me."

I've been playing games ever since you were a little cub sucking on yer momma's teet. Back in those days we didn't have computers. We didn't have fancy monitors and fancy screens. Hell we didn't even have a got damn mouse. All we had were our fingers and our good ole fashion noggin. We had to make due with what we have and we did. We surely did. 

Back in our day we didn't have developers being pain thousands of dollars to give us content. We had to create our own content. We had to develop our own stories. We made stuff up. We had to pull shit out of our arse just to make things interesting. And if that wasn't enough we'd drink prune juice and shove suppositories up our rears 'till we passed out or shit ourselves silly.

The bottom line is in my day we made things come alive. We used our imagination to make our dreams come true. Now a days, all these young whipper-snappers want to be spoon fed. They want the got damn developers to change their got damn diapers every time they shit themselves. They simply have no idea how to wipe their arse without the developers holding their hands.

Well, that's all I got to say for now. Didn't mean to get vulgar. I guess hemroids can really make a man cranky, even if you are a King.

KingCarebear

Lord of the diapers

Well, well, well.  The mighty King Carebear stands before me, challenging my might.  At long last, we square off.  So be it, if you wish to rush headlong to your death.  It is not my job to save fools from themselves.

My nerdpower exceeds yours.  It's a fact.  I'm sorry.  It's like comparing Super Goku Kingston Hyper-X Fucked-up Arian Stereotype Ridiculously Long-haired Form 16 vs Krillin after the deathfrisbee nerf which made it useless against all raid bosses.  Yes, these are the real terms, and I am an expert on this.

Back in my day, we had to play 1st edition Shadowrun because universities still banned D&D as a satanic activity.  Other RPG'ers mocked us for using only one kind of dice.  I developed a powerful technique to counter this.  I call it the six-sided fists of fury.

Back in my day, we didn't have weapons made of cardboard or masking tape.  When we wanted to look like complete jackasses, we had to do shitty imitations of Swayze at the clubs, since LARP was not yet invented.

Back in my day, we didn't have 4chan.  Without a repository for our severely and criminally retarded, we had to incorporate them into our social groups.  To those of you who don't realize the horrible cost of this, consider the deep shame and humiliation that Darkfall-enthusiasts cause you to feel, knowing they share these forums with you.

I trust you are soundly defeated.  If you wish to crawl back to me for a second thrashing, I await here with my Bejeweled Scepter of +5 Casual Games.  While I wait, I will pass the time scraping your blood from the crevices in my boot.

Originally posted by Kurush

Originally posted by KingCarebear

Originally posted by Kurush

Originally posted by ProfRed

Originally posted by TheGrid

The genre has always been this way.

Grinding, pointless quests, stale combat, repetitive raiding - these are the very definition of "MMORPG" as a genre.

99.9% of MMOs out there will have at least 3 of those factors.

 

At least with older games it used to be rewarding, difficult, and had a deep social sense.  Now all there is are people who want to solo to end game.  Get there fast and screw enjoying it.  That's just crazy talk.  Group?  No thanks we only have 4 quests in common and i'd rather do my 4 than help you with the one or two you still need to do.  Over half the groups you get invited to the people don't talk.. they just mindlessly get the quest done and leave.  It was a huge hassle for them to even have to invite you because they couldn't do it themselves.  Role playing?  No that doesn't happen anymore.  Not only does it not exist... It's been completely exterminated.

Games are designed for soloing.  They are designed to be easy, accessible, and mindnumbingly balanced.  Skill?  No that's an unfair advantage.  What we focus on here is time invested.  It's like if in real life two people spent 200 hours boxing, but one only hit a punching bag while the other boxed real people in real fights.  Only after those 200 hours they are 100% equally balanced. 

 

First off, you're not old, commissar.  You might think you're aged or experienced by comparing yourself to the teenagers in your MMORPG guild, but you're not.  You're twenty six.  Even if you started playing games when you were six or seven, you wouldn't have seen the generation of games that were really different.

Second, here is your problem: you are burned out.  You have grinded your fingers away by doing shitty, repetitive stuff you don't like, and because of this, you will probably never enjoy a MMORPG in the same way again.  You have ruined it for yourself.  Congratulations.  Next time have the balls to walk away from a game before you start hating it with a passion, not five to six months after that point like most of the "vets" here do.  You've reached the point where you hate games without even playing them, before they're even released, and that's not a good thing.

Lastly, there are still games left that are like what you think you want.  Do you know what the problem is?  People like you never play them.  You just talk and talk about how you want the return of sandbox games, and how you will sacrifice X, Y, Z, and hypothetical letter &, if it only the game had sandbox features.  Then all the sandbox games that get released die because people like you leave them in droves.  Why?   According to all the bitching I've seen in the past, it's because they have the following problems.

1. Not polished enough.

2. Not enough PvE content.

Yep.  Before NGE, those were the two massive complaints about SWG from its players.  Fix the bugs, add more content.  Every fucking SWG thread had a dozen people calling for that.  Were they willing to tolerate the game as-is?  Nope.  People were jumping ship in massive numbers because of those problems.  On about half of the servers, 95% of the player towns were deserted, most of the major merchants were gone, and almost all of the locations were dead.  The forums were filled completely with bitching about how bad the game was.  This was before CU.  Before CU.  Repeated, before CU.  Because some people will ignore this part, before CU.  Because some people still don't get it, before CU.  Just to make it clear:

BEFORE CU

BEFORE CU

BEFORE CU

B E F O R E   C U

 

No SWG vet will admit this because of their wonderful selective memory, but you can see it on any SWG forum which has posts going back that far.

It's the same shit that people say about Saga of Ryzom.  Seriously, go to the boards.  I've seen most of the sandbox enthusiasts on MMORPG.com talk about how they couldn't play Ryzom because there was no content after the newbie island.  By content, they mean quests, the exact same shit they claim to hate.  Go look right now.

Oh, and lets talk about UO.  Most of the "veterans" here bitch about how "Trammies" ruined the game.  This is so hilarious disconnected from reality that it's completely absurd.  Trammel doubled UO's then-declining population, essentially breathing life into a game whose FFA nature would have killed it in about two or three years more.  After Trammel saved it, many people later left it because they didn't like _new classes_ because they didn't _fit with the game_.  Oh God, the new classes ruined the sandbox!

In summation, your life will perpetually be despair and sadness.  You think you want a sandbox game at any cost, but you don't.  You want a game which is everything at once.  Sandbox + perfect PvP + WoW's amount of quests + completely polished + hires Spanish swimwear models that come give you BJ's every half-hour.  You will never be satisfied, and every good sandbox game that comes along will not be played by you because it is only good and not perfect.

I hope this has clarified your situation for you, thank you for playing.

 

Young man, you may think you've been around the block a few times, but trust me when I say "You haven't been around more blocks than me."

I've been playing games ever since you were a little cub sucking on yer momma's teet. Back in those days we didn't have computers. We didn't have fancy monitors and fancy screens. Hell we didn't even have a got damn mouse. All we had were our fingers and our good ole fashion noggin. We had to make due with what we have and we did. We surely did. 

Back in our day we didn't have developers being pain thousands of dollars to give us content. We had to create our own content. We had to develop our own stories. We made stuff up. We had to pull shit out of our arse just to make things interesting. And if that wasn't enough we'd drink prune juice and shove suppositories up our rears 'till we passed out or shit ourselves silly.

The bottom line is in my day we made things come alive. We used our imagination to make our dreams come true. Now a days, all these young whipper-snappers want to be spoon fed. They want the got damn developers to change their got damn diapers every time they shit themselves. They simply have no idea how to wipe their arse without the developers holding their hands.

Well, that's all I got to say for now. Didn't mean to get vulgar. I guess hemroids can really make a man cranky, even if you are a King.

KingCarebear

Lord of the diapers

 

Well, well, well.  The mighty King Carebear stands before me, challenging my might.  At long last, we square off.  So be it, if you wish to rush headlong to your death.  It is not my job to save fools from themselves.

My nerdpower exceeds yours.  It's a fact.  I'm sorry.  It's like comparing Super Goku Kingston Hyper-X Fucked-up Arian Stereotype Ridiculously Long-haired Form 16 vs Krillin after the deathfrisbee nerf which made it useless against all raid bosses.  Yes, these are the real terms, and I am an expert on this.

Back in my day, we had to play 1st edition Shadowrun because universities still banned D&D as a satanic activity.  Other RPG'ers mocked us for using only one kind of dice.  I developed a powerful technique to counter this.  I call it the six-sided fists of fury.

Back in my day, we didn't have weapons made of cardboard or masking tape.  When we wanted to look like complete jackasses, we had to do shitty imitations of Swayze at the clubs, since LARP was not yet invented.

Back in my day, we didn't have 4chan.  Without a repository for our severely and criminally retarded, we had to incorporate them into our social groups.  To those of you who don't realize the horrible cost of this, consider the deep shame and humiliation that Darkfall-enthusiasts cause you to feel, knowing they share these forums with you.

I trust you are soundly defeated.  If you wish to crawl back to me for a second thrashing, I await here with my Bejeweled Scepter of +5 Casual Games.  While I wait, I will pass the time scraping your blood from the crevices in my boot.

KingCarebear is weary. The King is drained. The battle against the young warrior Kurush has taken alot out of him. He was taken aback by the skill, wit and level of prose of the warrior. Super Goku Kingston Hyper-X Fucked-up Arian Stereotype Ridiculously Long-haired Form 16...I never knew such a being exist. Simply amazing, simply astounding. Even though the odds are against him, I'd still give Krillin a fighting chance to win.

The King decides not to engage the warrior today. His strength is not up to par for such an epic showdown, for such an epic battle. KingCarebear will wait until the time is right. When the time is right. Kurush's time in the spotlight will surely come to an end.

In the meantime, the King shall rest his weary bones. He closes his eyes. A thought appears in his view of sight "I will pass the time scraping your blood from the crevices in my foot." The King winces in disgust an anger "How dare he, HOW DARE HE SHOW ME SUCH BLATANT DISRESPECT!!" thinks the king. He drifts into sleep, thinking of the battle, thinking of the war...

KingCarebear

Lord of the ?!?!?!

Originally posted by Kurush

 Pure bullshit.

Okay smart guy, go find an MMORPG forum where people aren't whining for bug fixes and additional content.  Your argument is retarded.

And according to MMOGChart.com, which isn't always accurate but the guy does what he can with the information that is available, you can clearly see that  SWG's subscriber base was holding steady  at 300k until about January 2005 where it took a 50k hit over the course of a few months.  This was the point in the game's post launch development where the devs started ignoring everything in the entire game for the sake of jedi and jedi content.  In April 2005 (when the CU hit)  it bled an enormous amount of subs and then finally died in November 2005 (when the NGE hit).

I'd thank you for playing but your entire post is embarassingly incorrect.  If I were you I'd delete my MMORPG.com account and retreat to a mountain cabin so you can get to work on those mail bombs.

Originally posted by Kurush

Originally posted by ProfRed

Originally posted by TheGrid

The genre has always been this way.

Grinding, pointless quests, stale combat, repetitive raiding - these are the very definition of "MMORPG" as a genre.

99.9% of MMOs out there will have at least 3 of those factors.

 

At least with older games it used to be rewarding, difficult, and had a deep social sense.  Now all there is are people who want to solo to end game.  Get there fast and screw enjoying it.  That's just crazy talk.  Group?  No thanks we only have 4 quests in common and i'd rather do my 4 than help you with the one or two you still need to do.  Over half the groups you get invited to the people don't talk.. they just mindlessly get the quest done and leave.  It was a huge hassle for them to even have to invite you because they couldn't do it themselves.  Role playing?  No that doesn't happen anymore.  Not only does it not exist... It's been completely exterminated.

Games are designed for soloing.  They are designed to be easy, accessible, and mindnumbingly balanced.  Skill?  No that's an unfair advantage.  What we focus on here is time invested.  It's like if in real life two people spent 200 hours boxing, but one only hit a punching bag while the other boxed real people in real fights.  Only after those 200 hours they are 100% equally balanced. 

 

First off, you're not old, commissar.  You might think you're aged or experienced by comparing yourself to the teenagers in your MMORPG guild, but you're not.  You're twenty six.  Even if you started playing games when you were six or seven, you wouldn't have seen the generation of games that were really different.

Second, here is your problem: you are burned out.  You have grinded your fingers away by doing shitty, repetitive stuff you don't like, and because of this, you will probably never enjoy a MMORPG in the same way again.  You have ruined it for yourself.  Congratulations.  Next time have the balls to walk away from a game before you start hating it with a passion, not five to six months after that point like most of the "vets" here do.  You've reached the point where you hate games without even playing them, before they're even released, and that's not a good thing.

Lastly, there are still games left that are like what you think you want.  Do you know what the problem is?  People like you never play them.  You just talk and talk about how you want the return of sandbox games, and how you will sacrifice X, Y, Z, and hypothetical letter &, if it only the game had sandbox features.  Then all the sandbox games that get released die because people like you leave them in droves.  Why?   According to all the bitching I've seen in the past, it's because they have the following problems.

1. Not polished enough.

2. Not enough PvE content.

Yep.  Before NGE, those were the two massive complaints about SWG from its players.  Fix the bugs, add more content.  Every fucking SWG thread had a dozen people calling for that.  Were they willing to tolerate the game as-is?  Nope.  People were jumping ship in massive numbers because of those problems.  On about half of the servers, 95% of the player towns were deserted, most of the major merchants were gone, and almost all of the locations were dead.  The forums were filled completely with bitching about how bad the game was.  This was before CU.  Before CU.  Repeated, before CU.  Because some people will ignore this part, before CU.  Because some people still don't get it, before CU.  Just to make it clear:

BEFORE CU

BEFORE CU

BEFORE CU

B E F O R E   C U

 

No SWG vet will admit this because of their wonderful selective memory, but you can see it on any SWG forum which has posts going back that far.

It's the same shit that people say about Saga of Ryzom.  Seriously, go to the boards.  I've seen most of the sandbox enthusiasts on MMORPG.com talk about how they couldn't play Ryzom because there was no content after the newbie island.  By content, they mean quests, the exact same shit they claim to hate.  Go look right now.

Oh, and lets talk about UO.  Most of the "veterans" here bitch about how "Trammies" ruined the game.  This is so hilarious disconnected from reality that it's completely absurd.  Trammel doubled UO's then-declining population, essentially breathing life into a game whose FFA nature would have killed it in about two or three years more.  After Trammel saved it, many people later left it because they didn't like _new classes_ because they didn't _fit with the game_.  Oh God, the new classes ruined the sandbox!

In summation, your life will perpetually be despair and sadness.  You think you want a sandbox game at any cost, but you don't.  You want a game which is everything at once.  Sandbox + perfect PvP + WoW's amount of quests + completely polished + hires Spanish swimwear models that come give you BJ's every half-hour.  You will never be satisfied, and every good sandbox game that comes along will not be played by you because it is only good and not perfect.

I hope this has clarified your situation for you, thank you for playing.

WoW, one of the best posts i've read in a long time.

thank you

Originally posted by ProfRed

Originally posted by mk11232

With the new games, its all about instant gratification and "give me something for opening that door"; especially with the new generation flooding into the games.

Find yourself a RP server and an guild of older folks (25+ at least) and you'll find the people that want to enjoy the game and explor everythign there is to do (usually).

 

Yeah i've found some nice haunts.  I have had a lot of fun in random games like Ryzom, EVE, and some more mature guilds, but it feels like these devs are doing everything they can to make it harder and harder every year to find experiences like this.  They are a dying breed.  It's like a downward spiral too because people who started with a game like WoW will never know anything different, and they will grow up to be the people who influence the genre as devs, producers, managers and the likes.  No matter how I look at it I am filled with sadness and despair.

Don't get me wrong.  I play EVE still and will continue to play MMO's, but man it's just sad.  The fact that I am not playing WAR at launch is groundbreaking for me.  I have played almost every MMO that's came out since EQ on day one.  Most fun launch ever for me was SWG.  What happened to that game is like a metaphor for the entire damn genre.  They couldn't even leave alone a game that was already out and successful.  They had to force it to be as close to the other games out as possible.

May I recommend that you have a go at Vanguard. It had a disastrous launch but, since then, slowly and unheralded, it has become better and better. Visit the VG forums to see what I mean.

Originally posted by metalhead980

WoW, one of the best posts i've read in a long time.

thank you

I am so in agreement with you there. :P