Originally posted by Nadril

The only reason I am active here is that I do enjoy MMO's, that is no doubt. Of course I have plenty else to do (college and I'm a digital artist) but I do love games. I'm going to school to get into the industry (with 3D design hopefully) so of course I'll speak about them a lot.

The reason I bash AoC is that I want players, and developers, to know that a company can not pull this kind of shit without a backlash. I am fine with shitty games, they happen. I am even fine with a developer taking a risk and failing.

What I am not fine with are lies and spin. I want the gaming industry to have some form of merit in it and by expressing my negativity towards this game (as everyone else is doing as well) developers, Funcom and players can tell that people won't stand for a half assed cash grabbing scheme. It's the same exact thing if you got a horribly cooked burger at some restaraunt, and you even went there again and got another horrible burger and horrible service. It is no doubt that you would tell other people that this place sucks.

MMORPG developers however think they can get away with simply patching it later mentality that needs to stop in the industry. Patches need to happen, that's a fact, but you can't simply patch in stuff to the magnitude as AoC left out.

 

Also I really do hope Funcom goes bankrupt, or at least AoC gets shut down. Why? It's not because I hate Funcom but because otherwise it will just send a message that developers can still develop half assed product and make money on them. Having Funcom fall would provide a very clear example of what happens when you give shit service.

Now try to imagine yourself working for a studio -- the game you are working on is awesome (on paper) -- you are very convinced that it will be the next best thing after sliced bread and the art you are creating is something you are really proud of. And at some point in development your CEO tells you that their publisher decided to release the game in the state it is now ... you are not satisfied because it could (no HAS) to improve ... you know that it is not what it was on paper back three years ago.

You saw everything what happend during the development -- you are aware that the programmers had a really big problem showing your art in the game engine (and maybe it was even your fault because you screwed something up during the export) and this and many other little things delayed the progress -- You are probably still proud of your work. And now your CEO stands there and tells you the game has to be released  -- it has to recoup .. NOW ... otherwise they had to lay off you and a few of the other junior artists since they can't afford to pay the next monthly wage. What is the right decision morally?

To release a finished product  and lay off half of the crew -- or to hold your company together and release the game half finished -- recoup some of the money, satisfying the publisher and work hard to deliver the content that was missing -- later?

For me -- this question is a no-brainer, really.

Well, thing is: AOC is a MMORPG. MMORPGs imply the key principle of what the internet today is about, in fact it displays the direction our society is developing nowadays. Its all about participation, its all about interaction, its about masses, who - merged together - are more powerful than any big monopolist like company in the world. (ok I do idealize here a bit, but you get the point)

Now look at AOCs gameplay. Where does it encourage big groups? Where does it encourage big alliances? Where does it encourage real participation? Of course you got the sieges and everything, but it also is not deniable that they tend to be boring and broken. You have a single player like gameplay from level 1-20. After that it doesn't get much better.

On the other side you have Wikipedia, full user generated and administrated content. You have Blogs which are even able to manipulate googles search results (jjust look up "miserable failure"), hell countries like iran, china and others as well throw writers of blogs into the jail, because their messages are like weapons. Don't let me even begin with youtube...

Ok, this said, now take into consideration that there have been some MMORPG failures in the past, which made people angry. AOC is not the first disappointment in MMORPG history. Think about SWG, Archlord, Vanguard, well I won't go into that too much, people will know what I mean. Those failures have been AOC misfortune in a way. I won't go so far to say AOC was the last straw that broke the camels back ... but it goes into the right direction.

Now with that anger been adressed take it and put it together with the principle of the so called web 2.0 era. (I know this phrase has been used shamelessly for advertising by numerous companies, but you get it). The possibilities are there, to express your anger. You have blogs, you have forums, potcasts, videos. The platform is big enough for you to tell your opinion about the game. "So why don't use it? Don't let Funcom get away with it. Spread the message and let them go bancrupt once and forever."

In some more years a game such AOC won't get that much attention anymore, if it fails. Things will even out. When we are used to this whole system of communication, people will be more relaxed on such matters. Thats at least my opinion. But to clear things up, I don't really think its a bad thing what is now happening. I admit its sometimes a bit harsh, the complains we here at the moment aren't always justified. But all in all the whole thing just reflects that kind of changes we are experiencing since 5 years now or so. :)

Originally posted by Bonnafo

[/sniped]

if you haven't done it you might want to read the book Wikinomics -- pretty good read. I agree with what you said -- it's totally faszinating :)

Originally posted by Kerith

 What is the right decision morally?

To release a finished product  and lay off half of the crew -- or to hold your company together and release the game half finished -- recoup some of the money, satisfying the publisher and work hard to deliver the content that was missing -- later?

For me -- this question is a no-brainer, really.

Couple ways to tackle that.  You can announce to the public what you're missing and why you are releasing early and have a clean moral slate; your customers know what they are getting into.  Or you can just release as is and act like everything is hunky dory which is both unmoral and unethical.  I don't care what financial situation your company is in, morality has a clear definition.

Now, if you are asking what the smarter business decision would be (in the face of funding running dry) the obvious answer is to release as is and ignore the criticism.  Business decisions and moral decision rarely go hand in hand however.  Please realize a couple things with going this route though:

1.) Don't be surprised if the long term health of your product and company is impacted negatively.
2.) Don't be surprised your customer base is holding you accountable for your unmoral decision.
3.) You better god damn deliver shortly after or you risk being an unmoral bastard and a failure.

I hope this has been enlightening.

Originally posted by octa

Couple ways to tackle that.  You can announce to the public what you're missing and why you are releasing early and have a clean moral slate; your customers know what they are getting into.  Or you can just release as is and act like everything is hunky dory which is both unmoral and unethical.  I don't care what financial situation your company is in, morality has a clear definition.

Now, if you are asking what the smarter business decision would be (in the face of funding running dry) the obvious answer is to release as is and ignore the criticism.  Business decisions and moral decision rarely go hand in hand however.  Please realize a couple things with going this route though:

1.) Don't be surprised if the long term health of your product and company is impacted negatively.
2.) Don't be surprised your customer base is holding you accountable for your unmoral decision.
3.) You better god damn deliver shortly after or you risk being an unmoral bastard and a failure.

I hope this has been enlightening.

lol .. yes ... thank you for the lecture. I am not trying to defend poor communication skills with the customer base (as I stated several times above in this thread). But maybe as a side note -- it didn't helped Sigil at all to be "honest" in the end.

And besides that -- I am all for "Release when its finished" -- unfortunately this is not the norm and that has not much to do with the companies which are doing these games but unfortunately also with their publishers and investors (and not even every communication aspect may still be in their hands since they may have contracts with their publishers also regarding these matters). I am also sure that there went something wrong during the last 5 years and probably project management was not as good as it could (or should) have been -- but that is also quite common -- if you read "Rapid Development" you know that even Microsoft goofed with their development of MS Word. Anyways .. I am all for better project management and I am all for Agile Development when it comes to software projects. Why? Because they are unpredictable -- a lot of risks are involved. But people are just starting to understand that.

But I disagree when you say that this decision is not also a moral decision -- you as CEO of a company have indeed a moral responsibility towards your employees. And we can discuss that matter in lenghth if they (Funcom) are honoring this responsibilty with their poor communication to their customers, but that wasn't the point of my post.

My point was -- to show that at these companies are actually _people _ working on these projects ... and that it is not fair nor mature to wish them to go bancrupt. Thats all, really -- we can discuss every other aspect of poor management, responsibility towards the customers and analyse every possible mistake they did ... it is just this statement which really bothers me ...

Kerith, sorry but I embrace a Rand type of worldview

Tough competition, ideally, leads to better products given high levels of information in a liquid marketplace

AOC is a crap product

Funcom deserves bankruptcy so people with a good product can take their market share

Hey, it's a jungle out there. And that's the way it should be.

Originally posted by Kyleran

I think most of the hate (not all mind you) comes from folks who spend more of their time playing MMO's than any other activity in their lives.

No single player game could stand up to this sort off gameplay...these players burn through the content of those games in a matter of days, so they turn to MMO's. 

These aren't just games to them, its their entire world, so when the game turns out to be less than promised, they experience a profound sense of disappointment and loss.

Even now with WAR, I've seen people who post WAR IS THE BEST GAME EVAH!.  And you can can tell from their posts they are putting all their hope and dreams, heck, even their faith in a video game.  If it doesn't meet their expectations (and trust me, no game can meet everyone's expectations) they'll lash out at it has hard as they did with AOC.

There isn't a game out there today that doesn't have a vocal group of folks who bitterly decry it as the worst thing that happened in their lives.

In my own case, I just cancelled a couple of subs with AOC last night.  I was a slow leveling, so maybe it made me more patient, but I recently came to realize that I wasn't having fun anymore, so it was time to go.

Do I hate AOC or Funcom?  No.  Just a game, had many issues I didnt care for, but I got a few months of entertainment out of it, so I'll go out quietly into the night.  But you won't see me creating new threads on this forum or any other decrying the game.   There's new games on the horizon, (and I've returned to one I find I still enjoy, EVE) and life's too short to lose any sleep over a game.

 

 

anyone who posts on mmoprg.com, mmo have to play a large role in their lives. so dont come on here and act like you play passively when you're  really just as addicted as anyone else on this forum. you have to be some way addicted to post as much as you do. I'm sick of posters like you trying to make yourself feel better by telling people what their lives amount to. get off your high horse

Originally posted by Arthousesig

Kerith, sorry but I embrace a Rand type of worldview

Tough competition, ideally, leads to better products given high levels of information in a liquid marketplace

AOC is a crap product

Funcom deserves bankruptcy so people with a good product can take their market share

Hey, it's a jungle out there. And that's the way it should be.

I would be all for competition if everyone would follow the same rules -- unfortunately that is not the case. But discussing capitalism and every sub-form of it would really take this thread very far from its original purpose ... maybe some other time :)

Originally posted by ronan32

Originally posted by Kyleran

I think most of the hate (not all mind you) comes from folks who spend more of their time playing MMO's than any other activity in their lives.

No single player game could stand up to this sort off gameplay...these players burn through the content of those games in a matter of days, so they turn to MMO's. 

These aren't just games to them, its their entire world, so when the game turns out to be less than promised, they experience a profound sense of disappointment and loss.

Even now with WAR, I've seen people who post WAR IS THE BEST GAME EVAH!.  And you can can tell from their posts they are putting all their hope and dreams, heck, even their faith in a video game.  If it doesn't meet their expectations (and trust me, no game can meet everyone's expectations) they'll lash out at it has hard as they did with AOC.

There isn't a game out there today that doesn't have a vocal group of folks who bitterly decry it as the worst thing that happened in their lives.

In my own case, I just cancelled a couple of subs with AOC last night.  I was a slow leveling, so maybe it made me more patient, but I recently came to realize that I wasn't having fun anymore, so it was time to go.

Do I hate AOC or Funcom?  No.  Just a game, had many issues I didnt care for, but I got a few months of entertainment out of it, so I'll go out quietly into the night.  But you won't see me creating new threads on this forum or any other decrying the game.   There's new games on the horizon, (and I've returned to one I find I still enjoy, EVE) and life's too short to lose any sleep over a game.

 

 

 

anyone who posts on mmoprg.com, mmo have to play a large role in their lives. so dont come on here and act like you play passively when you're  really just as addicted as anyone else on this forum. you have to be some way addicted to post as much as you do. I'm sick of posters like you trying to make yourself feel better by telling people what their lives amount to. get off your high horse

Ronan are you kidding me?I will forget a few days ago when you gave me alot of abuse for answering your question but now you state"mmo have to play a large role in there lives"That has to be the funniest statement I have heard,I am 35 and enjoy mmo's but it isnt as you said "a large role in my life"it is a past time and nothing more and just because someone posts on this forum alot doesnt make it the centre of there universe.

Originally posted by Kerith
 

Now try to imagine yourself working for a studio -- the game you are working on is awesome (on paper) -- you are very convinced that it will be the next best thing after sliced bread and the art you are creating is something you are really proud of. And at some point in development your CEO tells you that their publisher decided to release the game in the state it is now ... you are not satisfied because it could (no HAS) to improve ... you know that it is not what it was on paper back three years ago.

You saw everything what happend during the development -- you are aware that the programmers had a really big problem showing your art in the game engine (and maybe it was even your fault because you screwed something up during the export) and this and many other little things delayed the progress -- You are probably still proud of your work. And now your CEO stands there and tells you the game has to be released  -- it has to recoup .. NOW ... otherwise they had to lay off you and a few of the other junior artists since they can't afford to pay the next monthly wage. What is the right decision morally?

To release a finished product  and lay off half of the crew -- or to hold your company together and release the game half finished -- recoup some of the money, satisfying the publisher and work hard to deliver the content that was missing -- later?

For me -- this question is a no-brainer, really.

You know your analogy almost holds until you look at what happens after the last paragraph.

If Funcom really were this 'plucky but humble company' that knew they had a good product but also knew that they had made mistakes & were going to disappoint a few people then they would have been more honest about it rather than spouting nonsense about 'Steak & Wine' or 'Perfect Launches' combined with endorsing Neo-Nazi moderators who treat customers with legitimate grievances appallingly badly.

The tragic picture you paint almost wins sympathy until you realise it doesn't resemble Funcom at all.

Originally posted by Arthousesig

Kerith, sorry but I embrace a Rand type of worldview

Tough competition, ideally, leads to better products given high levels of information in a liquid marketplace

AOC is a crap product

Funcom deserves bankruptcy so people with a good product can take their market share

Hey, it's a jungle out there. And that's the way it should be.

I completely agree with this.  I think the term you're looking for is survival of the fittest.

What's interesting though is the various replies on this post, go on about how we don't leap on SP games in the same manner...well the answer to that is simple, I pay maybe £20-£30 for a single player game which in most cases is pretty polished. If it is good then I enjoy it and I can go back to it as much as I want and it doesn't cost me any more (I still like to occasionally install Deus Ex).  In the worst case though, I pay £20-£30 for complete crap which then goes in the bin...but I've only paid £20-£30 and it's done.

Funcom is expecting me to pay £30 for tripe then £10 a month to play the tripe.  That's the bit I resent and why I dislike Funcom and AoC...they lie to me, provide me with a bug riddled game that lacks depth and then they expect me to pay for the privelege.  A good analogy would be to buy a car with no wheels on but if you pay the manufacturer a monthly fee they MIGHT provide the wheels at a later date.....you just wouldn't really would you?

Now the points about the only people disliking AoC being young people...I resent that most of my mates who have also binned it are over the age of 35 and are all level headed, married with kids...I think what unites us (me and my mates) is that when we shell out our hard earned sheckles, we expect a reasonable product and we don't want to feel conned.

Originally posted by LondonMagus

The tragic picture you paint almost wins sympathy until you realise it doesn't resemble Funcom at all.

I didn't intend to paint Funcom here -- I am sorry if I failed to point that out -- I was replying to the post of a young artist who might end up on the other side. No, I don't belive that Funcom is handling their product very wise at the moment ... as you might see on my reply on your post actually. I could guess why they do it the way they do it  -- but tbh -- I really have no clue ...

Originally posted by Kerith

Originally posted by Bonnafo

[/sniped]

if you haven't done it you might want to read the book Wikinomics -- pretty good read. I agree with what you said -- it's totally faszinating :)

Thanks for the tipp :)

Originally posted by Kerith

But I disagree when you say that this decision is not also a moral decision -- you as CEO of a company have indeed a moral responsibility towards your employees. And we can discuss that matter in lenghth if they (Funcom) are honoring this responsibilty with their poor communication to their customers, but that wasn't the point of my post.

My point was -- to show that at these companies are actually _people _ working on these projects ... and that it is not fair nor mature to wish them to go bancrupt. Thats all, really -- we can discuss every other aspect of poor management, responsibility towards the customers and analyse every possible mistake they did ... it is just this statement which really bothers me ...

I'm sorry but there are moral avenues to saving a failing company/project that don't require you to perform an immoral act.  Seeking more venture capital for one, cutting cost in certain areas, paying out of your own pocket are a few examples.  When did trying your best but failing become unmoral?  It's the basis for the term "learning experience." Part of the reason most countries offer protection to bankrupt companies is to deter them from doing something desperately illegal or unethical to stay afloat.

I sympathize with the hard working programmers and customer service reps at Funcom, I really do.  It doesn't absolve the company and its executives of accountability though.

Originally posted by eviledna

 

I have been a gamer for over 25 years now  

 

Seriously, I don't think playing Candy Land qualifies you as a gamer.

Just sayin.

Originally posted by eviledna

Actualy. no it didn't........ 

Glad to hear that, I was just about to pass the hat around the MMORPG forums to take up a collection to rent you a whore........

Now we can all save our money for the next big MMORPG.

Originally posted by daylight01

Originally posted by ronan32

Originally posted by Kyleran

I think most of the hate (not all mind you) comes from folks who spend more of their time playing MMO's than any other activity in their lives.

No single player game could stand up to this sort off gameplay...these players burn through the content of those games in a matter of days, so they turn to MMO's. 

These aren't just games to them, its their entire world, so when the game turns out to be less than promised, they experience a profound sense of disappointment and loss.

Even now with WAR, I've seen people who post WAR IS THE BEST GAME EVAH!.  And you can can tell from their posts they are putting all their hope and dreams, heck, even their faith in a video game.  If it doesn't meet their expectations (and trust me, no game can meet everyone's expectations) they'll lash out at it has hard as they did with AOC.

There isn't a game out there today that doesn't have a vocal group of folks who bitterly decry it as the worst thing that happened in their lives.

In my own case, I just cancelled a couple of subs with AOC last night.  I was a slow leveling, so maybe it made me more patient, but I recently came to realize that I wasn't having fun anymore, so it was time to go.

Do I hate AOC or Funcom?  No.  Just a game, had many issues I didnt care for, but I got a few months of entertainment out of it, so I'll go out quietly into the night.  But you won't see me creating new threads on this forum or any other decrying the game.   There's new games on the horizon, (and I've returned to one I find I still enjoy, EVE) and life's too short to lose any sleep over a game.

 

 

 

anyone who posts on mmoprg.com, mmo have to play a large role in their lives. so dont come on here and act like you play passively when you're  really just as addicted as anyone else on this forum. you have to be some way addicted to post as much as you do. I'm sick of posters like you trying to make yourself feel better by telling people what their lives amount to. get off your high horse

 

Ronan are you kidding me?I will forget a few days ago when you gave me alot of abuse for answering your question but now you state"mmo have to play a large role in there lives"That has to be the funniest statement I have heard,I am 35 and enjoy mmo's but it isnt as you said "a large role in my life"it is a past time and nothing more and just because someone posts on this forum alot doesnt make it the centre of there universe.

They're a big part of my life. I'm one of those MMO and games in general addicts. I form a bond of sorts to games I really enjoy I suppose. CoX holds a spot in my heart, I had a really good time playing WoW while I did. Anyway, when I'm not at work, I'm either playing games, or reading up on them /posting online, well, bit of an exaggeration there.

Point being, this is a site dedicated to discussing MMOs. Clearly it's a good bet most posters have at least a passing interest in them.

Originally posted by Kerith

I am still enjoying AoC.

The uproar in this forum about this game really shocked me. I can understand the people expressing their negative feelings towards the game regarding bugs or content which is not in -- and when this is put in reasonable sentences and presented in a polite (maybe somewhat bitter) way I even sympathise.

I don't understand the hate -- in fact it irritates me and makes me angry. I don't like the exaggerations and I also saw a lot plain lies about the game in these forums.

Just as a matter of interest, are you level 80?

Part of the 'hate' is because people invested a lot of time in this game only to realise that all the promised goodies were in reality not there. The cake was indeed a lie.

I agree, the simple thing is to just leave. But MMOs require an emotional and social investment over and above other genres of video game, so it feels more personal when you realise you have been played for a sucker.

And even worse when things like rampant gem duping, exploits and a borderline sociopathic attitude from customer service is thrown in.

So yes, of course you are right. Leave and move on. But people must realise that MMOS are a genre which includes emotional investment, and so the pain of being scammed is much greater.

Allow people their rants. They'll give up soon enough and move on. It's a natural process. War is almost here.