Originally posted by Flyte27

Originally posted by Forcan

Originally posted by Flyte27

I am starting to believe it is important to have classes in a group based game.  If you are playing a single player game with one character like Oblivion it's OK to have access to everything, but in a group based game you want to have roles for characters in the group.  It seems the best way to go is to have some archtypes and then allow for customization of each archtype so that the player has some choice in developing their characters, but the structure for roles in group stays intact.

 

Important? possibly...  Depends on the encounter system and group mechanics to assign role.  I prefer one that doesn't focus on classes for group encounter system (that is, 5 warriors can function just as well as 5 mage, or whatever the mix of templates/class/professions). 

You are more or less focus on the choices AFTER restriction, but that system normally punish me for my playstyle, hence I rather have choices and NO restriction (class)...

 

I see your point, but I generally enjoy games where you have a well balanced group.  If you can win with any combination the combat generally ends up being everyone running in and DPS.  That is very boring as it requires no strategy at all generally.

That's also true, hence a need for balance in how "dynamic" things will get during an encounter...  I mean, it also goes with the point of playing FOR self and playing WITH others...  Most players play FOR self while with others, and that's how encounters are set up as (even in group with definite roles...), but if there aren't definite roles, players can play with their own style (may it be healing/dps or whatnot) without being punished for trying to do what they want instead of what the encounter needs...

As for everyone running in and dps, that's also depending on what skills you have...  I mean, without a healer, it's easy to get wipe with or without definite roles in group.  But this goes deeper to how skills functions and how to design a healing mechanics that isn't point and click to heal... That's the boring part (even if you add in the unpredictable crits into the equation that requires fast reaction... it's still boring to heal for many...).   So either way there will be boring parts, so depends on the design, to make sure the system mechanics work in a fun way is the first goal.

It's good to have roles as some form of "guide-line", but when it becomes the "rule", the staple of what the encounter should be, it destroys the open interaction between players (due to the "need" for efficient, you sacrifice community, I think that's a very bad trade-off...)

Hmm.. seems I'm going off-topic here, but just want to share my thoughts.

Sorry, but Ryzom was really retarded. Pick a "class" from a typical MMO. For the first 50 levels, you only have 1 skill for that chosen class. And no, you cannot really use the other skills at the same time. It's a bit more like FFXI's job system than a true skill system.

A real skill system would be using many separate skills at once, like parrying, power attack, endurance, etc, rather than simply, "two handed axe".

This is, of course, to say nothing of the pretty lackluster special attack offerings of Ryzom.

Eve has a pretty good skill system, except for how advancement being totally time-based.

Originally posted by vajuras

We already have plenty of class & skill-based MMOs. How do you think you skill up your weapon and crafting skills in World of Warcraft for example? They used a minimum use based system. This is pretty common, most MMORPGs allow crafting to be skilled up in this manner along with weapon skills

 If you going to force me into a Class well there goes the sandbox element of building my character. That is usually not what people have in mind when we look for a skill-based game.  

Well, vajuras, here's the way I see it.

It's pointless to talk about high concept regarding skills versus classes in a MMORPG.  In reality, even when you find one or the other, flexibility seems to be based more on how well-built the game is and how much freedom the developers wanted you to have.

For instance, a shittily designed skill-based game won't give you real freedom because many skills will be too similar to offer real variety and some of the exotic options may simply be nonviable.  On the flipside, I've played some great class-based games which essentially let you build your entire character from nothing.  Guild Wars, for instance, lets you choose all of the skills you can use from a much larger pool, so builds vary wildly.  Many choose to go cookie-cutter, but they aren't locked into doing so, nor is a good player using a nonconventional build inferior to them.  To me, that's more freedom than simply being able to grind up fishing one day and ogregnawing another day on the same character.

I will agree that most games don't even try nowadays.  Look at WoW.  99% of arena players are using a small set of builds that are considered viable, so that's even less freedom in a game that already gives you a ton of choice.  For raiding, you have even less choice.  Nobody wants a guy who is putting forth a subpar contribution just for the sake of personal variety.  That has the effect of even shutting down classes.  For instance, it's simple mathematical reality that a warlock at higher tiers will out-DPS a mage.  And yeah, there are guilds out there who simply pass over all mages on raids that don't need their kind of CC, for that reason.

Originally posted by Mylon

Sorry, but Ryzom was really retarded. Pick a "class" from a typical MMO. For the first 50 levels, you only have 1 skill for that chosen class. And no, you cannot really use the other skills at the same time. It's a bit more like FFXI's job system than a true skill system.

A real skill system would be using many separate skills at once, like parrying, power attack, endurance, etc, rather than simply, "two handed axe".

This is, of course, to say nothing of the pretty lackluster special attack offerings of Ryzom.

Eve has a pretty good skill system, except for how advancement being totally time-based.

I was under the impression you could mix the two. Like wear light armor but stll cast magic. I'm still a lowbie tho. other day was swinging my sword and casting bolts was able to tankmage. Just that I was tanking less then a specialized heavy armor tank and spells hit less harder then a specialized mage with a magic amp on

Originally posted by Kurush

Originally posted by vajuras

We already have plenty of class & skill-based MMOs. How do you think you skill up your weapon and crafting skills in World of Warcraft for example? They used a minimum use based system. This is pretty common, most MMORPGs allow crafting to be skilled up in this manner along with weapon skills

 If you going to force me into a Class well there goes the sandbox element of building my character. That is usually not what people have in mind when we look for a skill-based game.  

Well, vajuras, here's the way I see it.

It's pointless to talk about high concept regarding skills versus classes in a MMORPG.  In reality, even when you find one or the other, flexibility seems to be based more on how well-built the game is and how much freedom the developers wanted you to have.

For instance, a shittily designed skill-based game won't give you real freedom because many skills will be too similar to offer real variety and some of the exotic options may simply be nonviable.  On the flipside, I've played some great class-based games which essentially let you build your entire character from nothing.  Guild Wars, for instance, lets you choose all of the skills you can use from a much larger pool, so builds vary wildly.  Many choose to go cookie-cutter, but they aren't locked into doing so, nor is a good player using a nonconventional build inferior to them.  To me, that's more freedom than simply being able to grind up fishing one day and ogregnawing another day on the same character.

I will agree that most games don't even try nowadays.  Look at WoW.  99% of arena players are using a small set of builds that are considered viable, so that's even less freedom in a game that already gives you a ton of choice.  For raiding, you have even less choice.  Nobody wants a guy who is putting forth a subpar contribution just for the sake of personal variety.  That has the effect of even shutting down classes.  For instance, it's simple mathematical reality that a warlock at higher tiers will out-DPS a mage.  And yeah, there are guilds out there who simply pass over all mages on raids that don't need their kind of CC, for that reason.

The freedom granted by skill-based games allow you to dynamically build your own character you really want to play. If you want to be a pure crafter--- cool, you can do that.

If you want to be a pure fisher, cool you can do that too

Guild Wars follows an anti-sandbox mentality. There isnt any crafting at all. No fishing. No ability to be a pure crafter. No ability to be a Mesmer / Ele / War to your hearts content. No ability to assign how strong you want to be many disciplines on one avatar. It's not really no where near onpar with EVE Online where my avatar is so vast it would take you many minutes to look at his composition

It's a great game but no way it should touch a skill-based title constructed properly in scope and depth and limitless combinations

Originally posted by vajuras

We already have plenty of class & skill-based MMOs. How do you think you skill up your weapon and crafting skills in World of Warcraft for example? ....

Skilling up crafting in WOW seems to consist to a large extent to purchasing the raws on the auction and hitting a button while you go watch TV.

I never said WoW had best crafting system or anything. I would enjoy being able to develop my own recipe and just make something. And I for sure not down for Levels being attached to Items.

Originally posted by vajuras

I never said WoW had best crafting system or anything. I would enjoy being able to develop my own recipe and just make something. And I for sure not down for Levels being attached to Items.

While I can see the reasons behind level restrictions, overall it points out that devs have not been able to think out of the box for past 8 years.

All games (with the sole exception of AC1 that I know of) have these kind of restrictions, and IMO it is just a lazy way to setup a game. Just for one example, in WOW I can catch fish X at level 30, I can cook it at level 35, but I can't eat the stoopid fish until I am level 40?? Like WTH - I can cook oatmeal at age 10 but I can'[t eat it until I am 15?

It is probably more difficult to make a true skill based sandbox MMO, but the first one that does it will finally be the death of WOW and other traditional grind games. Not that I expect that to happen anytime soon.