......   let's take some unknown IP....and do something totally new and unheard of before......  will the game be successful?   toss a coin and let someone OTHER than the game makers answer that....

..... now take the same concept....new and ground breaking ideas...and try them in a totally established IP.....  oh let's call that star trek......   Odds are MUCH higher of success simply for the fact it's a well known name/ IP.

I guess i'm asking ...and suggesting....     don't u guys think that a new and creative MMo is going to stand a better chance of changing the old WoW clone mold with something big like Trek instead of some no name start up company inventing a no name game ?

Just for once can we say "Let's try to make something better...."    or "Does it have to copy wow again?..."

oh i know...how about  "let's copy the exact same system from CoH/CoV and put a trek skin on it!.."   please.....don't do that.

I'd like to point out a couple things.....  

back in the days of Battletech 3025 before AOL started charging.... back when games like "flying Circus" were free..... back in the days when u could drive a tank all the way to your enemy base and blow it up in Air warrior...back in the days when ppl would spend COUNTLESS hours in Decent 3 and Mech warrior IV .....all those games were SIMULATORS......  and they were played until the game engine was just outdated and something more flashy came along...... 

time and time again....simulation strategy games have done OUTSTANDING....today's games include Call of duty 4....a near perfect real life combat simulation....done brilliantly....

WHY can't we have the option of starship simulation?   don't give me that old "it's too expensive and takes too long" line either......  i know 200+ ppl from my old SWG guild that were dedicated to forming a crew ...and there were TONS of ppl that wanted NOTHING to do with being on the bridge....guys wanted to be repair crews, engine chiefs.....scientists.....   do we all have to be little captains trying to out shoot each other?   please......that just makes me sick to think that you would take the "play it safe" route for something so amazing as star trek.....  boldy go somewhere please!

we don't want yet another linear quest driven mmo.....  we want the galaxy in all is danger and glory free from any limitations.    

When I first played SWG....i was on Tatooine for 4 months before I ever left that planet....  4 months of the 2 years I played on 1 single planet....do u know why?   because it was intensely interesting....i had no need to explore off that one world because there was sooooo much there to see and do....and ppl to interact with....leaving Tatooine finally only made that game more exciting......and no player had a number over their head either....forget that crap.

I guess I'm a little irritated.....I've have bought several MMo's.....only to be disappointed time and time again....   Eve has the space part down, but sadly lack an avatar to leave a ship with....  (if they incorporate avatars like the better mmo's do then that game will be the end of all the sci fi genre mmo's)

Dear Cryptic....  you have a GOLDMINE opportunity here....   please....  don't bother to play it safe....do something a cut above....   don't cash in and then give us crap   (because we ALL know it will sell well....don't be stingy with it)........   I'd STILL be paying my 3 SWG accounts to this day if soe hadn't destroyed it ......   cryptic....don't give us the cov/coh (NGE) version of startrek.

...skeptical.

Faxx(er)...expecting alot more in an MMO.

High expectations are almost certainly going to be let down. Don't expect sandbox. No developers want to build sandbox games anymore. Their investors/producers, want them to pop out a WoW clone to make them some money. Gaming is no longer about innovating. It's about copying what the last guy did to be succesful but chaning enough not to be accused of copyright infringement.

Personally I'd be ashamed to produce work with virtually nothing new or innovative about it.

I've become a complete cynic when it comes to video games. Be it console or PC, like most of the entertainment industry its no longer about producing a quality product and building a fan base, there is a larger market than ever before for video games. No, now its about making as much money as possible with the cheapest development possible, and moving on to the next project.

It pains me to say I have to agree with you....

correct me if i'm wrong....but...  if u remove WoW from the overall money generated from mmo's....aren't all the other clones flops?    

just because wow makes money, do all the others?   They are all little happy clone wannabees. 

I don't remember any other mmo boasting massive growth.... (except Eve....  and SL has had steady growth...both sand box mmo's too)   -- from my understanding, both dev teams are focused on delivering what the community would like rather than pleasing little pie charts like those suits at Soe too....hmmm...

/ponder

Crusades anyone?

So far all WOW clones have failed and will keep failing.... and sandbox will have to be the way to go with this game otherwise it will fail.....

on a sandbox soapbox....

GTA IV rocked the sales of consoles....  would u all not call that one a sandbox? (it's very open world)

that game has done so much money it should alter as much the game industry as WoW has no?  (wishful thinking here)  

I bought GTA and I HATE console games...but that game rules as my favorite ps3 game ever.   another one is burnout paradise...open ended game play.... 

dear game developers....  note.....   sand box sells.    wow clone fails.    sand box sells.   wow clone fails.  ohhh  it rymes so good i had to say it twice.

faxx(er)

edit for observation...lol...how come some days i have 5 stars and others i have 4?  lol..how is that star thing rating working here at mmorpg.com?  lol

Im sorry if I come across as rude here, but could you please remove the extra punctuation marks from your post? It's very anoying and hard to read.

Who's punctuation?  ...u mean this?   :P  

This is just me as a gamer saying this, but if anyone concentrated on making an mmo what it is for itself and didnt concentrate on beating wow so much we might actually get a decent mmo. Ip or no, dont cheat an mmo for what it could be by trying to live up to groundless standards.

Sand box type mmo's can do well, perhaps not anywhere near the level of WoW. EVE for example is the 3rd largest mmo in the western mmo market, and its the epitome of a sandbox.

I typically despise rants of moaning and whinning and pretty much what I was expecting when I saw the wall of text but I struggled past it and wow!

Well said, well done, well written Faxxer. If I could string together that kind of phrase I would have written this myself.

Package it up, send it to Cryptic as you are completely spot on. Now is the time they need be weary of creating an Eve Clone with Planets and find their own path, one that will break the industry open rather than add yet another failed IP.

If I wore a hat, it would be off to you.

Cheers,

I agree, I didn't leave Tatooine for the longest time.  didn't need to, there was too much to do.....plus the other planets could be dangerous....this is going back to the days when one person couldn't tank anything the game could send at them.

COH/COV are good games.....for about 4 months.  Then I got bored.

For me its the progression that's exciting.  Once I hit the end level I pretty much never log in on that alt ever again.  I could care less about collecting badges/costumes etc.

I dislike EVE but keep going back to it because I AM NEVER done.  I set a goal (currently get a freighter) and once I accomplish that I can decide to become a carrier pilot.

I am not sure its sandbox or not that's the problem but DEPTH. 

I agree with the OP's sentiment and agree 100% that Star Trek presents the perfect opportunity to break the mold, however, I don't see that happening.

I get the distinct impression from the Cryptic presentation and video that the game is going to be launched as a marketing ploy in conjunction with a future Star Trek film with all the innovation and attention to detail of a commemorative USS Enterprise cup at Burger King.

No I don't have anything to back that up but a healthy dose of cynicism and a certain salesman vibe I got from the dude who is leading the project.  I hope to hell I am wrong and this game gets all the innovation, planning and care it deserves however there is one thing that makes me doubt this.

The first developer failed and the whole development process had to be restarted. Assuming that the IP holder is staffed with beancounters instead of artistic visionaries, they must be getting nervous about this project's prospects and are now likely scared of throwing money down a rathole in the name of "innovation" and getting nothing in return.  What's that cliche'? ...  Once bitten twice shy?

Look at how far along the game was in the videos...  To me this screams of an IP holder who is now nervous and wants results yesterday and who picked a developer who could crank out a game Atari-"E.T." style in as little time as possible.

For this reason, sadly, I tend to think we are going to get a skinned, generic MMO that incorporates few (if any) innovations and that has very little to do with Star Trek other than there will be spaceships, a bunch of LCARS screens and people dressed up in starfleet uniforms rather than superhero outfits when they shoot at each other. 

I hope I am wrong.

time and time again....simulation strategy games have done OUTSTANDING....today's games include Call of duty 4....a near perfect real life combat simulation....done brilliantly...

Thanks for making me laugh. Near perfect real life combat. Funny I didn't know someone could kill another person with a single shot to the foot in real life, other then taking into consideration poison, or infection. Guess that lvl 50 guy is just better then my lvl 30. Guess it's time to give up on head shots and aim for the big toe.

Other then that I would say sims can be fun, and do make good games. Then you are looking at something more like eve which has its own problems. Mainly blobs, and massive lag battles.

It's sad to think about it....

Because we all know Star Trek could be outstanding.

Trek isn't just the ships and vulcans....it's a set of ideals that showed us all what the future could be like if we all stopped fighting each other and combined our souls towards exploring the galaxy... Gene would want to see that in this MMo if he were around to have a say in it.  

I have nothing against the other trek games that are still popular today, but i don't want to take those games and slap a cinematic 3d view on them and call it an MMO either.  

Yes, Trek mostly centers around life on a star ship.   So have that life start on a starbase....and CREWS can join up together and go off and explore the galaxy and seek out new life...etc....

I promise you this....  I'd spend AS MUCH TIME AS IT TOOK waiting to build up a crew on a starbase (guild) and THEN launch a starship.....  call it my tatooine experience.    That could happen and still satisfy all the Kirk complexes out there that just HAVE to get out there and blow stuff up the first day.   so much for STARFLEET training eh?

again....just stream of thoughts on this thread.  Not trying to do anything but provoke status quo.

faxx

Originally posted by BloodDuality

time and time again....simulation strategy games have done OUTSTANDING....today's games include Call of duty 4....a near perfect real life combat simulation....done brilliantly...

Thanks for making me laugh. Near perfect real life combat. Funny I didn't know someone could kill another person with a single shot to the foot in real life, other then taking into consideration poison, or infection. Guess that lvl 50 guy is just better then my lvl 30. Guess it's time to give up on head shots and aim for the big toe.

Other then that I would say sims can be fun, and do make good games. Then you are looking at something more like eve which has its own problems. Mainly blobs, and massive lag battles.

you telling me you can survive a .50 cal shot in the foot?   lol...your whole entire leg will be gone my friend.

you will bleed to death in a few min at most from that shot.  yes...it's the best simulation of combat out there today.  BUT....   I am just kidding about the foot shot.

Sim games are tons more fun than the mmo market gives them credit for, which I think kinda agrees with what you were saying.   Why are developers only willing to create a console game or a wow clone but nothing else?  cmon cryptic.....do something.

faxx

You shouldn't be kidding about the foot shots. 

I've played all of the Call of Duties.  You will not die from getting shot in the foot by any gun.  Unless it's a missile of some sort.  Getting shot 10 times in the foot might kill you though.  Hell, maybe you'll pass out from extreme pain or shock...and you may not die that instant.  But, you would almost definitely die even with a field medic there. 

Ultimately, developers are in it for the quick buck.  Ultima Online was the last good sandbox.  I heard Eve was great, a little hardcore though.  Why do you think games such as Darkfall and Mortal Online haven't been released yet?  It's because no one will back those developers financially in order to finish their product. 

If you were rich, you would do the same thing.  You put your money on sure things.  You don't put your money on unknowns.  If you did, you wouldn't be rich for long.

Unfortunate..  StarTrek Online could be wonderful.  I'm not holding my breath.

In case you haven't noticed Cryptic doesn't want it's game to be labelled an Eve clone and will only take ideas that will totally make the game beneficial. From what i've seen so far cryptic is only trying things out and keeping the bridge NPC only is just a test phase for fleets and they did clearly state that PCs will be added later on and personally i wish it was added right away and the whole gameplay would be done more like GW where you can add heroes and PCs or in this case NPC crew members and PCs. They also don't want to eliminate the fact that you are going to explore planets and probably acquire more crew members along the way by recruiting them from the planets you visit which is another reason for the "No PCs on your ship yet" thing.

I believe this game is in good hands and the live reveal shows that cryptic know where they want to go with this game and are going to bring all the lore of Star Trek no matter what.

In the case of Star Trek and for all our sakes we hope you are right.

After reading my posts and other ppl's posts about STO, I'm noticing mostly that ppl are saying what they DON'T want to see in this game more than what they DO want to see.  My post is no exception.

I can speak for myself, and I suspect many more, when I say that we're not trying to tell Cryptic how to make the game, but rather what we don't want them to make.         another Clone of WoW for example.  Linear gameplay, generic ship control, brainless combat....the list goes on.

I played city of heros and I quit the 2nd day.  I was bored out of my skull.   There was no depth to it in my opinion.   I think I'd like to point out that a trek game for the sake of trek isn't what we'd like here...we want something substantive because it's trek, not because it's an MMO. (Though I suspect some may say for both reasons)

faxx

I've said it in other posts and at the risk of being repetitive I'll say it again; I sincerely believe that the people, players, fans that will play STO over the long haul (note: longer than 3 months) will want and expect more than a point and click space ship game with some planet exploration that doubles as a cheap shooter.

Again, I believe we've seen these games before with the Star Trek IP, some good and some really not good at all.

No, I think what will keep people over the long term is a game that makes an attempt to capture what has made the series (all of 'em) and the movies popular... That feeling of being part of something larger then thyself.

Star Trek, in its many iterations, was always about people, about large ideals and about a universe that is constantly in flux - changing shape and dynamic at every corner in the long road of exploration. Looking back on most of the series' what you'll notice is that almost none of them took the easy road, while subject matter might have pertinent to the times they stayed true to this recipe and they've been rewarded with devoted followers and fans.

Taking the short cut route, giving everyone their captain wings (so to peak) and a ship, not allowing for anyone to be part of a crew, part of a ship and part of story in my oppinion contradicts all of what has worked in the past for this IP.

While I'm sure it would be more technically daunting, creating a world where people can earn their way through the academy and onto a ship or a space station, earn their position as cheif medical officer, or bridge officer, or even Captain will create more long term players.

Give players the choice of carrers, give them the option to stay on earth on SFA, apply to deep space exploration ships, in space ships, science ships, space stations and the like. Yes we should have full ships, yes we should have quarters, officers, ranks and jobs. Even if we only have a handfull of models to choose from in the begining, that's ok but do it right.

I realize again that this would be more difficult and I know it flies in the face of the instant gratification games that have been so popular as of late but I don't believe this game will succeed any other way.

R.I.P.

Originally posted by DAS1337

If you were rich, you would do the same thing.  You put your money on sure things.  You don't put your money on unknowns.  If you did, you wouldn't be rich for long. 

Lottery to-do list:

• Win
• Receive first check
• Quit job
• Invest wisely
• Buy Star Trek IP and find (or found) a company that will make a quality Star Trek MMO with all the features I want

I 2nd that list of lottery to do earnings!

I think the same thing sometimes... " If ONLY I had the money to fund a project that i KNOW ppl want but that investors are too afriad to give the time it needs......"

perhaps some day.

Anyone know what a "rough guess" cost of a triple A mmo is to develope?  I actually have no idea and am curious.

Faxx

Originally posted by Faxxer

I 2nd that list of lottery to do earnings!

 I think the same thing sometimes... " If ONLY I had the money to fund a project that i KNOW ppl want but that investors are too afriad to give the time it needs......"

perhaps some day.

Anyone know what a "rough guess" cost of a triple A mmo is to develope?  I actually have no idea and am curious.

Faxx

It's hard to say even rough estimates of development costs for MMO's as they are typically numbers that are very well protected. But...

Everquest 2 was rumored to be in the 50 Million Range.

World of Warcraft was in the 30 to 40 Million Range. (This cost jumped due to infrastructure demands shortly after Launch)

Star Wars Galaxies was rumored to be around to be in the 20 to 30 Million range back at launch in 2003.

We can probably assume that LoTRO was in the mix around these numbers as well.

Compared to a smaller budget MMO like PotBS which was pushed out with about 10 Million in finance.

I just can't fathom star trek meaning that much to people. It was just a show. I enjoyed it a lot, I admit that, but it didn't make me feel like I was part of something big just by watching it. It was an enjoyable show with likeable characters and usually a story you could get into.

Lets face it, star trek drew a specific demographic, sure there were fans from all walks of life, but the hard core fans were the people usually deemed "geeks" or "nerds". And why is that? Look who always saved the day! Sure the captain was the face and voice of the ship in pretty much all things, but if Scottie, LaForge, Cheif O'Brien, or Allana didn't get that deflector dish, or warp core, or dilithium crystal matrix, recalibrated, realigned, or just restarted in time the whole crew would have been toast.

You guys are taking this way to seriously. just let them create the game and we will all see how it is when it comes out. It is entirely possible that the thing you are so vehemently against could be implemented so well that it is actually a high point in the game.

I personally don't want to have to pull a crew of people together, work with them to get all of our skills up to the uppermost levels and then our tactical guy get offered a spot on a ship with better stats and ditch us. Thats what player crews are going to give us and don't even say just replace him with an NPC or another player. No NPC is as good as another player and replacing him will mean pretty much starting over with someone who has no idea how your guild ship works.

Originally posted by Wikkedbowtie

I just can't fathom star trek meaning that much to people. It was just a show. I enjoyed it a lot, I admit that, but it didn't make me feel like I was part of something big just by watching it. It was an enjoyable show with likeable characters and usually a story you could get into.

Lets face it, star trek drew a specific demographic, sure there were fans from all walks of life, but the hard core fans were the people usually deemed "geeks" or "nerds". And why is that? Look who always saved the day! Sure the captain was the face and voice of the ship in pretty much all things, but if Scottie, LaForge, Cheif O'Brien, or Allana didn't get that deflector dish, or warp core, or dilithium crystal matrix, recalibrated, realigned, or just restarted in time the whole crew would have been toast.

You guys are taking this way to seriously. just let them create the game and we will all see how it is when it comes out. It is entirely possible that the thing you are so vehemently against could be implemented so well that it is actually a high point in the game.

I personally don't want to have to pull a crew of people together, work with them to get all of our skills up to the uppermost levels and then our tactical guy get offered a spot on a ship with better stats and ditch us. Thats what player crews are going to give us and don't even say just replace him with an NPC or another player. No NPC is as good as another player and replacing him will mean pretty much starting over with someone who has no idea how your guild ship works.

VERY GOOD POINTS ALL!!! 

But i'd like to add some things to it.

Trek was an ideal.  During the cold war, it showed us a future where we knew humanity would move beyond it's near total earth destruction mentality.   It showed us an emerging end to bigotry.  It showed us a united human race could reach far into the cosmos and find fellow life to share the galaxy with. 

It may have been just a show to some then, but it grew into a vision of the future that alot of humanity desires to see come to pass.  I could go on and on but i'll save everyone the reading lol.

On a second point,  I agree with you that some do NOT want a player crew as it's VERY hard to get a large group online together.   BUT, we all start out small as Cryptic stated with no crew.   The ability to give the players that choice is something that should be easy to implement.   If u want to be the only person on your Galaxy class ship, then it's going to be NPC crewed.....

BUT....  what if u had a player join up who could take over an NPC station (Like helm or tactical) on command.  That's what I'm talking about.  

This would make both groups happy.  The solo and the group driven types.

faxx