So from what I gather, your ideal MMO would have only two zones. The first full of mutant boars (kinda sci-fi/horror). You would drop into this first zone at max level, level 0, and from there group up with a few people and begin farming the mutant boars. With the bonus to XP from grouping it wouldn't take long before your skills are at their max 'level' and you can move on to the next zone.

Now this zone is full pvp, with everyone running around mindlessly killing each other. Oh and for consequence make it perma-death. After all it would only take an hour or so to re-create another toon and level up your skills again. And, of course there would be no forums for the game, so no possible way to report bugs or communicate with the devs at all without calling or sending an e-mail.

Perhaps I read your post wrong...

so basicly u want SWG and/or EvE 2.0?

Admittedly, I did not read EVERY post.  Just a few pages.  But in so doing, one thing stood out in my mind....

It's truthfully AMAZING how MANY of these "grievances" seem to be addressed in WARHAMMER.  I'm, FINALLY, looking forward to an MMO release, and it has been a VERY long time since I've had that excited feeling.  I'm not one to "place all my eggs in one basket", so to speak, or pre-judge an unknown denominator, BUT....I have a good feeling about this game.

A good many of the OP's compaints are addressed in WAR.

I'm a compulsive "game subscriber", because I like to give pretty much ANY online game a chance to "wow me."  Therefore, I have subscriptions to several games at a time usually, until they get graduallly weeded out....or sometimes NOT.  That being said.....I'm still ready for some grassroots, from the ground up, CHANGES in how MMOs are done.  And while I'm definitely not prepared to say "Warhammer will be the God of All Gamedom,"  I'm certainly hopeful that it will, at least, breathe some new life into what is, for some of us, becoming very stale.

Originally posted by Unreal024

So from what I gather, your ideal MMO would have only two zones. The first full of mutant boars (kinda sci-fi/horror). You would drop into this first zone at max level, level 0, and from there group up with a few people and begin farming the mutant boars. With the bonus to XP from grouping it wouldn't take long before your skills are at their max 'level' and you can move on to the next zone.

Now this zone is full pvp, with everyone running around mindlessly killing each other. Oh and for consequence make it perma-death. After all it would only take an hour or so to re-create another toon and level up your skills again. And, of course there would be no forums for the game, so no possible way to report bugs or communicate with the devs at all without calling or sending an e-mail.

Perhaps I read your post wrong...

So from what I gather, You're a troll with no imagination or ability to think outside the WoW box, no ability to see there is more to a game then grinding to max level or farming phat lewtz, and never heard of an in-game bug report system or fansites before...

Perhaps I read your post wrong though?

Originally posted by girlgeek

Admittedly, I did not read EVERY post.  Just a few pages.  But in so doing, one thing stood out in my mind....

It's truthfully AMAZING how MANY of these "grievances" seem to be addressed in WARHAMMER.  I'm, FINALLY, looking forward to an MMO release, and it has been a VERY long time since I've had that excited feeling.  I'm not one to "place all my eggs in one basket", so to speak, or pre-judge an unknown denominator, BUT....I have a good feeling about this game.

A good many of the OP's compaints are addressed in WAR.

I'm a compulsive "game subscriber", because I like to give pretty much ANY online game a chance to "wow me."  Therefore, I have subscriptions to several games at a time usually, until they get graduallly weeded out....or sometimes NOT.  That being said.....I'm still ready for some grassroots, from the ground up, CHANGES in how MMOs are done.  And while I'm definitely not prepared to say "Warhammer will be the God of All Gamedom,"  I'm certainly hopeful that it will, at least, breathe some new life into what is, for some of us, becoming very stale.

Pardon my ignorance, but would you care to share how WAR will address a lot of these grievances? I've read a little bit about it,  but not enough to know how my gripes will be different in that game(With the exception of the Fantasy part of course :P  ). So if you could, I would be very interested to know. (And I'm asking for you to explain because obviously some of it will be your opinion on how the gripe is dealt with, and we'll probably agree on some and not agree on others.)

Answer:

http://www.darkfallonline.com/

(If they ever decide to make/release it)

I disagree with 2 and 7.  I don't like crafting and I enjoy having forums.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

1) Levels.

Levels are a cheap, poor way to provide instant gratifications to the masses that are unable to find other ways to make progress. This arbitrary number slapped on the top of a character's head has the ability to render a great majority of game content completely worthless. I hate the idea that this number is the sole determination on how strong your character is, and what the outcome of the fight will be. Remove levels, and make some games with skill box based systems!

Since there is such an emphasis in WAR on "public quests" and RvR, ALL levels will have a place to participate in some way in the advancement.  So although, a lvl 7 player still cannot kill a lvl 20 player, they still can perform an integral part in public questing and the advancement of the guild and the realm.

2) Loot based economies

Loot based economies essential make time in game take precedence over skill. Being able to devote more of your life to a game shouldn't mean you automatically dominate those who can't play as much. Allow player skill to actually play a part in a fight, not just how many purples each person has. Loot also makes people run the same boring awful dungeons over and over again just so they can get that one item to drop. Loot based systems more often then not make crafting a pointless hobby for the select few that enjoy it. Very rarely do you see a loot based system with a creative, meaningful crafting system. Remove loot based systems and make crafters the major suppliers!

Crafting in WAR will be the making of things you actually USE.  It's not going to be endless grinding up making junk you don't need and can't sell.

3) Simplicity

Why has simple become better? Some of us out here still like to think when we play our games. Some of us are more than mindless drones waiting to be spoon fed what to do next in my epic pre-determined saga of heroism that everyone else will endure. I want to think, I want to be challenged! Remove simplicity and challenge me!

I think the sheer magnitude, of what it looks like it will require in WAR, to progress to the point of taking the other faction's major city (one of the ultimate goals), kind of flies in the face of what I like to call "single digit IQ mentality."  Although I can't specify, as of yet , why I don't believe it to be an OVERLY "simple" game.

4) XP penalties for grouping

This one makes no sense to me. Why punish people for grouping up and working together in an online game designed for people to group up and work together? All XP penalties do is encourage solo play defeats the purpose of MMORPGs. Remove XP penalties for grouping and encourage social interaction again!

One OTHER game addresses this issue, other than WAR.  In Perfect World, you actually get MORE xp for grouping.  The way it appears WAR will handle this, is that there are so many things that will just be so much smoother grouped, and every SINGLE thing that is done goes toward leveling your guild, not just you, so it encourages grouping to accomplish more for the whole.  Again....I don't have anything more specific than that, but I think that alone...is a plus.

5) Boring linear gameplay

I absolutely despise questing. It's boring, incredibly repetitive, and because of number 3 on my list, lonely. I also hate being forced to quest. Occasionally I'll quest  with someone, but it doesn't make much sense when all it does is slow you down. The worst part of forced questing to level is, if you decide to level another character, you have to do the same horrible quests again. My favorite way to level was the ways of Star Wars Galaxies. Sure, it was boring repetitive grinding on mobs, but the difference is that I was with a full group of people, and just interacting with them was far more entertaining then any static repetitive quest could ever be. Remove boring linear gameplay and figure other ways to progress!

THIS is a big one, to me, anyway.  In MOST MMOs, quests don't really have any significant value other than helping you to level your own personal character.  They rarely affect the game world in any sort of noticeable sense, they're sheerly there as busy work to make grinding appear not to be....well....grinding.  They're not very effective, even at THAT goal.

So...in WAR....all the quests you do affect the guild and even the realm in terms of advancement. Quests have a purpose beyond just the end of your own nose.  There are also public quests, as I mentioned before, that require everyone to work toward a realm goal.

I think we'll WANT to quest, in WAR.

6) FANTASY!

For god's sake how many fantasy MMO's do we have to drown in every single year? I was never a big fan of fantasy, but lately that's all we see. Fantasy fantasy fantasy! Give us a good Sci-fi MMO, or think of some theme completely different! Remove the fantasy and be original!

Can't give you a "relief" here.  WAR is pretty well fantasy-based too.  I mean there are orcs (albeit very different from WoWs orcs, it seems), and there are elves (but no stripper-imitating brainless night elf types), etc.

7) Official forums

Has anything good ever come from having Official forums for a game? Nearly every game I've ever seen with official forums, they become nothing more then a stagnant swamp of tears from all the most vocal whiners in the community. Whats worse is many times the developers start to listen to these whiners. Remove official forums and make the game the way you want it!

Again....I'm not sure what's going to happen with "official forums," so can't help you on this one.

8) Instancing(from bloodytv and I agree)

Instancing seperates the community and makes pickup groups difficult.  A dungeon/world should be big enough that if some place has people, there are other places in that said world/dungeon to go that can provide a good challenge/loot.

Not sure about this either.

9) Small Scale PvP

Battlegrounds, arenas, and the likes all start out fun, and can still be fun on occasion, but eventually just turn into another form of dungeon grinding. Small scale instanced pvp takes away from the feeling of fighting in a larger conflict and is incredibly repetitive. Remove small scale PvP and give us a reason to take part in world PvP!

On THIS one....WAR totally does PvP different, it's ALL "world PvP."  You know those huge 200 person raids on Stormwind?  Well....those things are going on all the time in WAR.  There are no "BGs", no "arena", there is massive realm-wide WAR against the other faction.  You will definitely have the feeling of "fighting in a larger conflict."  And better yet....the conflict has a vastly larger purpose than to get yourSELF some new PvP warfare epics.  You're working toward being able to burn, pillage and loot....yes....LOOT....STEAL the opposing faction's STUFF from their city!  All of the things they have "earned" as a realm, will now be yours for the taking....IF you make it that far as a realm fighting against them!

I know I have more but thats all I can think of right now. Add on or comment as you wish.

Man, you REALLY need to watch all of the Warhammer Developer Diaries and Production Podcasts.  You would see where....there is some cool new stuff just on the horizon!

 Before anyone says: TL/DR

This is in response to the OP asking me to get more specific about how WAR changes some of these very grievances many of us have.

Originally posted by girlgeek

 Before anyone says: TL/DR

This is in response to the OP asking me to get more specific about how WAR changes some of these very grievances many of us have.

(Shortened for the forums sake)

Thank you very much for the info. I was planning on trying WAR out anyway, but now you have sparked my interest a little more. I have always thought that emphasis should be on world PvP, and that instanced pvp was pretty silly when it came to world immersion.

Also sounds like you are in the WAR beta hehe

A little bit on RvR

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/home/flash/2008-07_podcast.html

A little bit on LIVING cities and what YOUR quests and your GUILD efforts actually DO, yes, believe it or not, your efforts FINALLY make dynamic changes on the game world itself.   Let's hear it for WANTING to quest again!

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/home/flash/2008-03_pp_JeffonCities.html

Originally posted by girlgeek

Originally posted by Abrahmm

1) Levels.

Levels are a cheap, poor way to provide instant gratifications to the masses that are unable to find other ways to make progress. This arbitrary number slapped on the top of a character's head has the ability to render a great majority of game content completely worthless. I hate the idea that this number is the sole determination on how strong your character is, and what the outcome of the fight will be. Remove levels, and make some games with skill box based systems!

Since there is such an emphasis in WAR on "public quests" and RvR, ALL levels will have a place to participate in some way in the advancement.  So although, a lvl 7 player still cannot kill a lvl 20 player, they still can perform an integral part in public questing and the advancement of the guild and the realm.

 

i would just like to point out, that you're not adressing what has been said. Levels is an indication of how strong your character is. Saying a lower level can contribute to the world has nothing to do with what he said.

Originally posted by protoroc

Skills are no different then levels. Oblivion was absolutely boring as every mob was your equal, easiest way to win is never level past 1.

I've been a crafter and I have been an adventurer so I know both sides. Unfortunately there is more adventurers and they dont want to be chained to a crafter, but crafters want to make stuff people will want.

Instances are useful. Adonis, shortly after Shadowlands, Anarchy Online, there was only so many hecklers in the zone. It could only support so many teams and was the only way to level past 200 (it was Funcom so of course half of the expansion wasnt even implemented at launch, dont think AoC was special). Past that limit and you were shit out of luck with no alternative to sk gain. Instancing could have made an already horrible experience a bit more accommodating. I call for a mix of open world, public instances (I miss trains lol) and private instances

Oblivion's skill system was superb, it was just implemented like total crap. The level scaling was not present in it's predecessor Morrowind, and that in my heart is one of the best RPGs of all time.

Oblivion was crap because everything was scaled to your level, a skill based system could be developed where this is not the case. I don't want people to know exactly what I'm capable of simply because I have a (Level 50) over my head. Skill system would be awesome. Just wait for an Elder Scrolls Online.

Okay, in regards to levels or skills....

Either way, you have to grow stronger as a character.  Otherwise, what is the point?  That's a part of progression.  What is your suggestion?  No levels or skills?  Because, truly....they have the same end effect.  When you gain a level, you learn new skills.  So it's really the same.  Unless you think it might make things more interesting to just not KNOW what level mobs and players are....that's a possibility that actually might have some merit.

Of course, if you couldn't SEE anyone or anything's level...it would certainly make things more immersive!!  And it would probably also make you approach things with a LOT more caution!  LOL

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by Unreal024

So from what I gather, your ideal MMO would have only two zones. The first full of mutant boars (kinda sci-fi/horror). You would drop into this first zone at max level, level 0, and from there group up with a few people and begin farming the mutant boars. With the bonus to XP from grouping it wouldn't take long before your skills are at their max 'level' and you can move on to the next zone.

Now this zone is full pvp, with everyone running around mindlessly killing each other. Oh and for consequence make it perma-death. After all it would only take an hour or so to re-create another toon and level up your skills again. And, of course there would be no forums for the game, so no possible way to report bugs or communicate with the devs at all without calling or sending an e-mail.

Perhaps I read your post wrong...

 

So from what I gather, You're a troll with no imagination or ability to think outside the WoW box, no ability to see there is more to a game then grinding to max level or farming phat lewtz, and never heard of an in-game bug report system or fansites before...

Perhaps I read your post wrong though?

Aww, your reply was less hostile than I was hoping for. Sorry, I couldn't resist trolling you a little bit. But, in all seriousness if your waiting for a good sci-fi sandbox MMO with twitch style combat check out http://www.infinity-universe.com/Infinity/ Browse the forums, check out their ideas and download the combat prototype. IF this project ever gets going I think it could really turn into something. I'm looking forward to it quite a bit.

They should get rid of Gold-Sellers !!!

Originally posted by Tungkan

They should get rid of Gold-Sellers !!!

Oh if only people would stop buying the gold and creating a need for the gold sellers. But, I'm afraid people will always want to take the easy route and buy their way through a game. This is the only thing I truly wish would be gotten rid of.

BTW:  SWG was always a poorly designed game.    I started at release, suffered through endless nerfs.   Got maxed out characters only to realize there was absolutely NOTHING to do, except explore.   The economy was basically ruined at the start because some beta players ended up monopolizing the sale of every item.     The pvp was extremely unbalanced unless you had certain builds.     The JEDI system was unbelievably stupid and progressed to brain dead status.

SWG was not an MMO other developers should strive to copy.   In fact if it was so good the majority of the population wouldn't have left BEFORE the NGE.   

Currently the best MMO currently available now and in the near future (including overhyped WAR) is LOTRO.

If you changed the word WAR to AoC many of the fan boy posts would read exactly the same.   

Ahhh, but the difference in WAR and AoC is that we now KNOW that AoC sucks.  And...I tried LoTRo and was unimpressed.  Granted, I'm not a huge Tolkien fan, so that may be part of why it didn't do much for me.

AoC was definitely hyped.  MOST huge MMOs are hyped before they are released and surprise, surprise.....SOME end up worthy of the hype, and others are EPIC FAILS.

Before determining that the WAR hype is nothing BUT hype....we should perhaps TRY it.  Sept. 18th, is not that far away, and some of us will be trying it out within about 4 days in the Open Beta.  So we should probably try to refrain from judgment until we've had a "go" at it.

The REASON there are differnt games (for the upteenhundredth time) is because there are different personalities.  Just because YOU or I think such and so game is or WILL be "the best", does not make it SO for EVERYone.

AGAIN....personally, I'm going to PAY for and PLAY whatever I LIKE.  And to me, it doesn't matter what some other gamers THINK or SAY about it.  If I, personally, enjoy it....to ME it's "the best."  There is plenty of room in the gaming market for MANY MANY great games.

"7) Official forums

"Has anything good ever come from having Official forums for a game? Nearly every game I've ever seen with official forums, they become nothing more then a stagnant swamp of tears from all the most vocal whiners in the community. Whats worse is many times the developers start to listen to these whiners. Remove official forums and make the game the way you want it!"

I must say that I can take or leave some of the idea in the original post but this proposal, to ban Official Forums, is interesting. I absolutely agree with the OP that the forums distort the Developers' view of a game and, if they then make changes based on that view, then can unhinge the entire ethos. It was precisely because the Developers' spent too much time listening to the 'Nerf Jedi!" screams on the official forums that was the root cause of the NGE that destroyed gthe mmorpg, Star Wars Galaxies.

Originally posted by girlgeek

Okay, in regards to levels or skills....

Either way, you have to grow stronger as a character.  Otherwise, what is the point?  That's a part of progression.  What is your suggestion?  No levels or skills?  Because, truly....they have the same end effect.  When you gain a level, you learn new skills.  So it's really the same.  Unless you think it might make things more interesting to just not KNOW what level mobs and players are....that's a possibility that actually might have some merit.

Of course, if you couldn't SEE anyone or anything's level...it would certainly make things more immersive!!  And it would probably also make you approach things with a LOT more caution!  LOL

 

Actually they differ greatly. While I agree that the whole goal is to make your character stronger, but gaining levels and skills are completely different. In a level based system, when you get enough xp,  you get your next level and you learn new skills that the developers decided you should learn at that level. In a skill based system, you get enough xp and you CHOOSE which skill you learn. You may be completely combat built, but with this next skill you want to learn something healing related.

There is a big difference between level and skill based, level being completely linear and skill being open ended.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by girlgeek

Okay, in regards to levels or skills....

Either way, you have to grow stronger as a character.  Otherwise, what is the point?  That's a part of progression.  What is your suggestion?  No levels or skills?  Because, truly....they have the same end effect.  When you gain a level, you learn new skills.  So it's really the same.  Unless you think it might make things more interesting to just not KNOW what level mobs and players are....that's a possibility that actually might have some merit.

Of course, if you couldn't SEE anyone or anything's level...it would certainly make things more immersive!!  And it would probably also make you approach things with a LOT more caution!  LOL

 

 

Actually they differ greatly. While I agree that the whole goal is to make your character stronger, but gaining levels and skills are completely different. In a level based system, when you get enough xp,  you get your next level and you learn new skills that the developers decided you should learn at that level. In a skill based system, you get enough xp and you CHOOSE which skill you learn. You may be completely combat built, but with this next skill you want to learn something healing related.

There is a big difference between level and skill based, level being completely linear and skill being open ended.

When you put it THAT way....I agree.  Skill based, in my opinion, is ideal.  I'm ALL FOR anything that offers players more choices and options.  I do NOT like being pidgeon-holed or controlled.  So yeah....I gotcha!  I wasn't thinking of it in those terms, probably because it's been so long since a game DIDN'T dictate what I could choose from skill-wise.

Originally posted by girlgeek

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by girlgeek

Okay, in regards to levels or skills....

Either way, you have to grow stronger as a character.  Otherwise, what is the point?  That's a part of progression.  What is your suggestion?  No levels or skills?  Because, truly....they have the same end effect.  When you gain a level, you learn new skills.  So it's really the same.  Unless you think it might make things more interesting to just not KNOW what level mobs and players are....that's a possibility that actually might have some merit.

Of course, if you couldn't SEE anyone or anything's level...it would certainly make things more immersive!!  And it would probably also make you approach things with a LOT more caution!  LOL

 

 

Actually they differ greatly. While I agree that the whole goal is to make your character stronger, but gaining levels and skills are completely different. In a level based system, when you get enough xp,  you get your next level and you learn new skills that the developers decided you should learn at that level. In a skill based system, you get enough xp and you CHOOSE which skill you learn. You may be completely combat built, but with this next skill you want to learn something healing related.

There is a big difference between level and skill based, level being completely linear and skill being open ended.

 

When you put it THAT way....I agree.  Skill based, in my opinion, is ideal.  I'm ALL FOR anything that offers players more choices and options.  I do NOT like being pidgeon-holed or controlled.  So yeah....I gotcha!  I wasn't thinking of it in those terms, probably because it's been so long since a game DIDN'T dictate what I could choose from skill-wise.

You will find skill based systems where you have the freedom  to choose what build you want, mostly only in sandbox games.

MORE good news for the OP, in regards to grievance #7:

Warhammer will NOT have "official forums."  WOOT, LESS QQ more pew pew!

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/40915

About halfway down the page it states.....

Mark Jacobs has said over and over again,

. Ever.

I agree with with th OP concerning most of the things listed except #5 and #8.

#5 For me, questing partly involves getting to know the lore of a game, without real lore you have a great game with no backbone. Quests only slow me down when I don't want to learn what the game is about and want to rush to the endgame. It's not the developers job to make it easy for you to have more than one character, thats your job.

 #8 Instancing in my opinion doesn't separate a community, the community separates the community. Asshats can't kill the boss you patiently waited your turn for then LOL. Inside a instance, that final boss you needed for a quest belongs to your group only.

And let's not forget that there can be alot of players in a area at any given time meaning a non-instanced dungeon could spell problems or a wait time you didn't sign up for.

There are alot more gamers now then there was in the past, which means developers have to come up with other ways for other types of players to play.

Games should be available to all types of players, not for one. Options are attractive in any sense.

Quests and instances are options or should be, in any game.

OP : I am glad you're not in the development business.

Please stay out of the games industry.

No hard feelings, but about 99.9% of the people on MMORPG.COM should play instead of designing sandboxes. :)))