Some of you have added some great points that I agree with, some of you have changed my view a little and some of you I completely disagree with.

Either way, I think I either didn't explain myself clearly enough or came off the wrong way on a couple of things.

first, I don't think every MMO should remove all of these things from their games. I just want some MMO's to do this, so that there are games for every type of player. Most of the games coming out now all the same or very similar in game-play and features.

1) Levels

on my comment about having a skill based system over levels, I don't mean a system where you can get every skill and be done. I guess what I meant to say was remove levels and classes. I am tired of games where you get enough xp and the number above your head goes up by 1, along with giving you the abilities that everyone else with your class has at that level. Give players a choice. I'm sick of games with classes where depending on what I chose at the very beginning, I'm the same as everyone else that chooses that. And if I want to change what my character does, I have to re-roll and re-grind a new character. The system I liked the best was the pre-NGE star wars galaxies skill system. You were limited to how many skills you could get, but you could change your skills at any time, and most non-fotm's had a unique character with unique skills.

2) Loot based economies

On this note, I didn't mean a game where gear doesn't mean anything, I meant a game where the best gear doesn't get dropped by some monster. I want games to have crafters making the best gear, and the quality of the gear is dependent on the quality of the components used to make it. Find, aquire, steal the best components to get the best gear crafted for you. Not making you run the same dungeon over and over until you get that drop you want to make you better.

5) Boring linear gameplay

On this topic what some of you have said has changed my mind a little, but also made me think further into what I said and take back a little bit. I don't want the complete removal of quests. I want the complete removal of boring pointless quests. The "Go kill 20 angry beavers" quests or the "Deliver this letter" quests or the "Find 5298234 of this item I accidentally dropped all over the ground like an idiot" quests need to be removed. There pointless, there boring, and there pointless. Give some creativity to quests, and most importantly, MAKE THEM MEAN SOMETHING. I want my actions in the game to affect the game around me. A quest like "Find an enemy encampment and destroy it" where finding and destroying the non static camp(you know, I would have to search for it, look for signs of enemy movement, think a little to find it) allows me to take any valuable supplies they may have, give me experience points, and reduce the enemy NPC presence in the sector sounds like an awesome way to progress to me. It needs to be FUN, MEANINGFUL, and REWARDING(experience is fine, don't shower me with items for no reason). Most quests in most games today only have 1 of these things(rewarding)

7) Official forums

While Official forums do have there good points, they are usually over run by the cry babies pretty quickly and rarely listen to by the devs. A main website is still a viable way to get information about the game to the players without including forums.

9) I don't not like small scale PvP in general, I don't like small scale instanced PvP. My mistake for not being clear. I don't like a system where I click a button and wait for the computer to put me in an instance with other people to fight. Make the pvp mean something and be random, sometimes you are outnumbered, sometimes you aren't. Instanced pvp doesn't allow this.

But good input over all guys. Again you can disagree with me all you want, this is just what I want in a game.

 Didnt read everyones lists , but here is mine

remove

Instancing

Zoning

soloing

• pvp balances that effect PvE (to me its bloody lazy programming)

• childish pvp (not everyone should be able to kill everyone easily.  some should be epic fights were a roll of the dice (or random numbers) determine who wins and gear doesnt play a role)

• reduction in the effect of stat boosting items.  stat boosting items should only be in high level dungeons and should only give a slight boos (+5% accuracy or damage)

• some more skill based MMO's (half and half really.  levels are ok in some games)

• rethink endgame.  dungeons are good fun (5 or 6 in a group) and we need more, endgame should be easy to get into and fun to play.  rewards are only an added bonus

• boost xp in grouping do not penalize it

• always (emphasis on always) be looking to improve the 1-max level content NOT always focussed on endgame)

the big one for me is the last one.  i am happy to keep playing the current crop of MMO's (even if they are a bit frustrating at times) if they implement that.  we all like the first run from 1-max level but the 2nd and 3rd times are harder.  its even worse if said game has been out for years and nothing has been added to the low level zones.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

1) Levels.

I find levels okay. I would just like a system that allows you to pick up other professions (Ryzom) or allows you to drop skill points to pick up another profession (SWG 2003-2005)

2) Loot based economies

This depends on how the game was envisioned. Some games are crafting centered (EvE) while others are loot centered (WoW). If you don't care to develop a deep system of crafting, or if you question your players dedication to crafting, for the love of god please loot.

3) Simplicity

People have different, and conflicting ideas of what a challenge is..For Lineage 2, WoW Epic players, and old SWG Jedi, the challenge was the endless grind. I don't necessarily consider this a challenge (but, I would never do it, so it's a self challenge). The one thing you need to get over is the player guide. Communities love to post guides. They make even the most "challenging" thing rudimentary. 

4) XP penalties for grouping

Agreed.

5) Boring linear gameplay

Agreed. I never ran the Jedi grind, but I loved hunting groups, no matter what their reason. There is a myth out there that spin groups were only for the J-grind, but I found myself there pretty often to try out every profession, help level a guildie, and then as a doc to help the others and get hides. It got pretty hairy sometimes too! Our choice had rewards, and it was fun.

6) FANTASY!

Agreed.

7) Official forums

I like official forums. I do not like scouring the internet for a place to offline chat with current players of a game, or moreover, the company to whom I am paying money. Tabula Rasa decided forums were not necessary. They also decided that a heart, soul, and story was also something to leave on the cutting room floor.

8) Instancing(from bloodytv and I agree)

Agreed. I didn't mind RoTW. But, as you said. Even their instances were large enough to handle multiple groups. Chances are they could have pulled off the entire expansion with higher spawn rates.

9) Small Scale PvP

Battlegrounds, arenas, and the likes all start out fun, and can still be fun on occasion, but eventually just turn into another form of dungeon grinding. Small scale instanced pvp takes away from the feeling of fighting in a larger conflict and is incredibly repetitive. Remove small scale PvP and give us a reason to take part in world PvP!

Dunno what to say on this one. PvP in my experience has always been greater numbers win (period). Sometimes I thought the battleground would be great. I will never know though. I prefer the numbered battleground for FPS games since Quake 3 Fortress (2002).

I know I have more but thats all I can think of right now. Add on or comment as you wish.

Good post...

Originally posted by sanders01

I like things simple, I dont want my MMO to feel like work, I dont want it to be complicated to where I cant learn to play it by the time I get level 10. I like to have solo content, and lots of it, group leveling means leveling with idiots. I may be one of the masses, but im no dumbass. (Not saying you called me one, just stateing it outloud). I just like the game for what it is. WoW and other mass MMOs have the easiest, yet funnest gameplay experiences i've ever had. I never felt a "grind" going to level 70.

Did you ever think that these 3 comments you made might be, just maybe, related? Perhaps a game being simple and easy has a positive correlation with the amount of "idiots" in the game? Perhaps complexity in a game has not only the advantage of challenging the player, but simultaneously pre-screens the game and removes the "idiots" before they ever get a footing?

I personally found very few "idiots" in Star Wars Galaxies pre-NGE. Sure, there were people I didn't like, and people I didn't get along with, but those were more clashes of personalities or un-supported actions. In complex games I've rarely found the rude, poor grammar, babbling idiots that you find over-running the simple games.

Just another benefit of complexity.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

1) Levels.

Levels are a cheap, poor way to provide instant gratifications to the masses that are unable to find other ways to make progress. This arbitrary number slapped on the top of a character's head has the ability to render a great majority of game content completely worthless. I hate the idea that this number is the sole determination on how strong your character is, and what the outcome of the fight will be. Remove levels, and make some games with skill box based systems!

2) Loot based economies

Loot based economies essential make time in game take precedence over skill. Being able to devote more of your life to a game shouldn't mean you automatically dominate those who can't play as much. Allow player skill to actually play a part in a fight, not just how many purples each person has. Loot also makes people run the same boring awful dungeons over and over again just so they can get that one item to drop. Loot based systems more often then not make crafting a pointless hobby for the select few that enjoy it. Very rarely do you see a loot based system with a creative, meaningful crafting system. Remove loot based systems and make crafters the major suppliers!

3) Simplicity

Why has simple become better? Some of us out here still like to think when we play our games. Some of us are more than mindless drones waiting to be spoon fed what to do next in my epic pre-determined saga of heroism that everyone else will endure. I want to think, I want to be challenged! Remove simplicity and challenge me!

4) XP penalties for grouping

This one makes no sense to me. Why punish people for grouping up and working together in an online game designed for people to group up and work together? All XP penalties do is encourage solo play defeats the purpose of MMORPGs. Remove XP penalties for grouping and encourage social interaction again!

5) Boring linear gameplay

I absolutely despise questing. It's boring, incredibly repetitive, and because of number 3 on my list, lonely. I also hate being forced to quest. Occasionally I'll quest  with someone, but it doesn't make much sense when all it does is slow you down. The worst part of forced questing to level is, if you decide to level another character, you have to do the same horrible quests again. My favorite way to level was the ways of Star Wars Galaxies. Sure, it was boring repetitive grinding on mobs, but the difference is that I was with a full group of people, and just interacting with them was far more entertaining then any static repetitive quest could ever be. Remove boring linear gameplay and figure other ways to progress!

6) FANTASY!

For god's sake how many fantasy MMO's do we have to drown in every single year? I was never a big fan of fantasy, but lately that's all we see. Fantasy fantasy fantasy! Give us a good Sci-fi MMO, or think of some theme completely different! Remove the fantasy and be original!

7) Official forums

Has anything good ever come from having Official forums for a game? Nearly every game I've ever seen with official forums, they become nothing more then a stagnant swamp of tears from all the most vocal whiners in the community. Whats worse is many times the developers start to listen to these whiners. Remove official forums and make the game the way you want it!

8) Instancing(from bloodytv and I agree)

Instancing seperates the community and makes pickup groups difficult.  A dungeon/world should be big enough that if some place has people, there are other places in that said world/dungeon to go that can provide a good challenge/loot.

9) Small Scale PvP

Battlegrounds, arenas, and the likes all start out fun, and can still be fun on occasion, but eventually just turn into another form of dungeon grinding. Small scale instanced pvp takes away from the feeling of fighting in a larger conflict and is incredibly repetitive. Remove small scale PvP and give us a reason to take part in world PvP!

I know I have more but thats all I can think of right now. Add on or comment as you wish.

And after you take all this out of mmos,your left with a Console game.I agree with most of this all except the questing.The problem with questing in todays mmo's is they are not epic with awesome storylines like they should have.Once Questing is removed what do you want solid grinding? What are you supposed to do then?

Originally posted by Battleskar

And after you take all this out of mmos,your left with a Console game.I agree with most of this all except the questing.The problem with questing in todays mmo's is they are not epic with awesome storylines like they should have.Once Questing is removed what do you want solid grinding? What are you supposed to do then?

Use your imagination, they are doing prety well in EVE, and as far as i am concerned there is no grinding.

the quests you do them for your guild/corp/clan/faction/alliance

example 1 (EVE)

your guild needs to farm x amount of ore, they need a "fighter" to protect the "miner"

mission objectives: primary: the miner must survive, secondary, kill any incoming threat

example 2 (SWG)

the guild crafter needs x amount of hides to make new chairs and sofas for the guild hall.

mission objectives, primary: find and locate (insertname) hides, of quality 500 or more, secondary: kill and loot (insertname) to gather the hides and bring them back to the crafter.

example 3...

ok i need to go to a meeting so use your imagination and fill in the example 3.

you do not need quests given by NPCs for an MMO to work, its the community that makes it work or not. if its open with very few limitations then the human nature will take over and create a living breathing interindependent world.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

1) Levels.

Levels are a cheap, poor way to provide instant gratifications to the masses that are unable to find other ways to make progress. This arbitrary number slapped on the top of a character's head has the ability to render a great majority of game content completely worthless. I hate the idea that this number is the sole determination on how strong your character is, and what the outcome of the fight will be. Remove levels, and make some games with skill box based systems!

I have to agree and disagree.  While i agree leveling does limit content, it brings people together in the sense that people play in the same areas with the same objectives, and can play together.  Rather than just picking up random people to go adventure in some random place. for no reason.

2) Loot based economies

Loot based economies essential make time in game take precedence over skill. Being able to devote more of your life to a game shouldn't mean you automatically dominate those who can't play as much. Allow player skill to actually play a part in a fight, not just how many purples each person has. Loot also makes people run the same boring awful dungeons over and over again just so they can get that one item to drop. Loot based systems more often then not make crafting a pointless hobby for the select few that enjoy it. Very rarely do you see a loot based system with a creative, meaningful crafting system. Remove loot based systems and make crafters the major suppliers!

Heres where we get into trouble, Why do crafters feel they should get more effort out of their work then adventurers who want to put in the same amount of work?  Not everyone likes to craft.  Why should the people who don't want to craft be penalized.

A real suggestion would be to have crafting and adventuring both offer equal rewards for equal effort.  If it takes on average for a player to get a full set of armor, say 50 hours, from monster drops.  Then it should take 50 hours of crafting.  It's not fair?  it really is fair.

3) Simplicity

Why has simple become better? Some of us out here still like to think when we play our games. Some of us are more than mindless drones waiting to be spoon fed what to do next in my epic pre-determined saga of heroism that everyone else will endure. I want to think, I want to be challenged! Remove simplicity and challenge me!

Heres the thing.  Your not asking for a more challenging game, your asking for a more tedious and technologically backwards game.

Remove maps? people will mod it, because its not fun running around in the middle of nowhere anymore.  We've all seen sci fi and fantasy worlds in 3d before, the charm of adventuring into unknown areas without a massive game experience or comparison was what was fun.

Making things overly complicated isn't a good thing.  But what is a good thing, is making simple things to do, very difficult to achieve. 

You should never have to fight the games systems to do what you want, but rather work hard along with a good system to get what you want.

4) XP penalties for grouping

This one makes no sense to me. Why punish people for grouping up and working together in an online game designed for people to group up and work together? All XP penalties do is encourage solo play defeats the purpose of MMORPGs. Remove XP penalties for grouping and encourage social interaction again!

The XP penalty is placed because there has to be a purpose to soloing.  A good game will offer a solo and group choice, if you didn't get a xp penalty in groups, what would happen is the solo game being effectively neutered, because a group could kill 4-8x as fast for the same reward.  By scaling xp to be the same if not a LITTLE bit better, it allows for both players to feel like they are achieving something.

Along with group content generally offering better non exp rewards, such as cash, and items and possibly crafting materials.

5) Boring linear gameplay

I absolutely despise questing. It's boring, incredibly repetitive, and because of number 3 on my list, lonely. I also hate being forced to quest. Occasionally I'll quest  with someone, but it doesn't make much sense when all it does is slow you down. The worst part of forced questing to level is, if you decide to level another character, you have to do the same horrible quests again. My favorite way to level was the ways of Star Wars Galaxies. Sure, it was boring repetitive grinding on mobs, but the difference is that I was with a full group of people, and just interacting with them was far more entertaining then any static repetitive quest could ever be. Remove boring linear gameplay and figure other ways to progress!

Heres where I am torn.

1. Questing allows you to play with a series of achievements, and story, and well content.  In WoW the quests were fun the first time you did em, remember doing the defias chain in westfall for the first time, and going into deadmines with your group(when it wasnt easymode as it is now) and coming across a goblin forge, and a underground ship? To kill the named boss, and then finish up the story coming from the item he drops?

It was a lot of fun.

2. I have genuinely had some fun experiences with just group playing.  Look at EQ2 for example, it had a good open dungeon system for group content.  If a game was about exploring dungeons and forests, with a style similar to eq2 adventuring.  Then sure, i would be up for it.

But just grinding mobs over and over and over and over and over and over and over. ala eq1, daoc, eqoa, and the like simply isn't fun anymore.  I can go play a game thats fun to play all the time, rather then sitting in LFG, or just grinding the same mobs, or even worse, sitting in a spot, while one person pulls mobs to us for hours.

Do you honestly want to go back to that?  Don't romanticize how it is.  Because it wasn't that grand.

6) FANTASY!

For god's sake how many fantasy MMO's do we have to drown in every single year? I was never a big fan of fantasy, but lately that's all we see. Fantasy fantasy fantasy! Give us a good Sci-fi MMO, or think of some theme completely different! Remove the fantasy and be original!

I agree and disagree.  Fantasy is used because it allows for custom worlds to be created, with their own rules, and while things do share similarities it does not have a giant we r the same vibe going for it.  For example play vanguard, play wow, and then go play eq2.  all fantasy games, but they don't feel like its the same world with the same races.

But then we go into sci fi.  They either try too hard and get rediculous aliens(jaba the hut) or they end up with a endless supply of humanoid aliens where the only difference is the color of the skin, and moderate facial features such as blue tentacles, forehead ridges, pointy ears, blue skin, red skin, glowing eyes.  let alone that aliens all just use fantasy archetypes for races.  The smart noble races(elves), the not as smart but warlike/mean races(orcs and dwarves). etc.

Then we get into weaponry, A spaceship is a spaceship is a spaceship.  I haven't seen anything in years from any form of sci fi, that changes this.  A humanoid spaceship looks like the enterprise, or tie fighters, they all are the same.  Then theres the alien ships which are either just slightly altered humanoid. Or they have the covenant "smooth and organic" looking, such as, as i said the covenent, the protoss, etc etc.

Then for some reason, people still fight with light sabers and other swords? deflecting bullets, and lasers?  Then theres the guns, which are either truely futuristic(star trek), or they are sci fi, where they are generally current day weapons which are larger, do basically the same things, or have some random gimmick thrown on them, that doesn't relate to how a truely futuristic society would engineer their weapons.

Then theres planet exploration.  Why are there beasts which can take a laser shot, or tons of  bullets, they are animals, they didn't evolve bullet proof, skin would never be bullet proof like it is.  heck getting shot once would send almost any animals fleeing in terror.  Not the relentless charge shown in movies and games.

I personally would rather have a game that takes todays world and environments and uses them in a fantasy/sci fi kind of way.  No silly lasers, no silly reverse engineering of alien weaponry.  Weither its a alien invasion similar to the setting of cloverfield(but obviously not just one giant enemy). The world of darkness setting(which is in development... yay).

Or hell even a GTA mmo based off the GTA 4 engine/world, would be interesting and involving if done right.

Horror is a way underused mmo genre. It would be great to be in a world thats genuinely dark and creepy.  Could you imagine playing condemned in a entire city the size of a GTA world?  That would be intense.  Especially if it was ffa pvp, with consequences.

It doesn't have to jump from fantasy to sci fi, both have been done, give us something new or give us something thats been proven to be fun and successful.

7) Official forums

Has anything good ever come from having Official forums for a game? Nearly every game I've ever seen with official forums, they become nothing more then a stagnant swamp of tears from all the most vocal whiners in the community. Whats worse is many times the developers start to listen to these whiners. Remove official forums and make the game the way you want it!

Agree and disagree. I agree because ive seen todays forums, i disagree because ive seen todays forums.  Basically im just looking to see how war handles it, if it does as good of a job as it did with daoc then i will fully support no OF, but if it hurts because of it, then i want OF

8) Instancing(from bloodytv and I agree)

Instancing seperates the community and makes pickup groups difficult.  A dungeon/world should be big enough that if some place has people, there are other places in that said world/dungeon to go that can provide a good challenge/loot.

No. Instancing actually makes pickup grouping easier.  But i do agree with real world dungeons and areas.  And frankly it's something i've always wondered, why aren't there any real open area style challenges?  For example a enemy city generally is a series of pathways.  Why not a real open city, not instanced, out in the world, that is populated like a city, be a dungeon style area. Or even a forest?  Or in the mountains.  Why is it always pathways and clearings, pathways and caves, pathways and... pathways!

But instancing allows for a group to meet up at a common objective suitable to their capabilities, and take their time and enjoy the content.  Should everything be instanced? no.  But they have their place and when used right, truely enhance the game.

9) Small Scale PvP

Battlegrounds, arenas, and the likes all start out fun, and can still be fun on occasion, but eventually just turn into another form of dungeon grinding. Small scale instanced pvp takes away from the feeling of fighting in a larger conflict and is incredibly repetitive. Remove small scale PvP and give us a reason to take part in world PvP!

I have to disagree with removing it, but i would agree that there needs to be world pvp.  But not FFA PvP how the PKs want it.  That's just stupid and will ruin the game faster then you and i can blink.  I've posted my ideas in pk threads, and i won't go through it again.

But world pvp where cities mean something beyond just being a base, but rather a part of the world even becoming a capital city.  Where resource areas are fought over and worked hard in.  Where you and your city are one of the driving forces in the game, akin to stormwind or ironforge, or orgrimmar in wow.   And then having it be a collapsable, either from the inside(ie conflict or corruption) or the outside(ie a attack)

But sometimes just pvping in a arena or a bg can be fun if you want to fight without the hassle of "where can i find some pvp", or you just want to jump into the fight.

And frankly thats exactly what WAR is doing.  And thats why i am looking forward to it(note not the city building, but the world pvp and then "fun" scenarios)

I know I have more but thats all I can think of right now. Add on or comment as you wish.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by sanders01

I like things simple, I dont want my MMO to feel like work, I dont want it to be complicated to where I cant learn to play it by the time I get level 10. I like to have solo content, and lots of it, group leveling means leveling with idiots. I may be one of the masses, but im no dumbass. (Not saying you called me one, just stateing it outloud). I just like the game for what it is. WoW and other mass MMOs have the easiest, yet funnest gameplay experiences i've ever had. I never felt a "grind" going to level 70.

 

Did you ever think that these 3 comments you made might be, just maybe, related? Perhaps a game being simple and easy has a positive correlation with the amount of "idiots" in the game? Perhaps complexity in a game has not only the advantage of challenging the player, but simultaneously pre-screens the game and removes the "idiots" before they ever get a footing?

I personally found very few "idiots" in Star Wars Galaxies pre-NGE. Sure, there were people I didn't like, and people I didn't get along with, but those were more clashes of personalities or un-supported actions. In complex games I've rarely found the rude, poor grammar, babbling idiots that you find over-running the simple games.

Just another benefit of complexity.

Opinions vs. Opinions. Who wins? No one, because opinions are like.. you know, and everyone has one, just because a game is simple doesn't mean its FULL of idiots. I've meet alot of good people in WoW etc. Most of the people I've played with weren't the idiot you speak of.

Originally posted by Squal'Zell

Originally posted by Battleskar

And after you take all this out of mmos,your left with a Console game.I agree with most of this all except the questing.The problem with questing in todays mmo's is they are not epic with awesome storylines like they should have.Once Questing is removed what do you want solid grinding? What are you supposed to do then?

 

Use your imagination, they are doing prety well in EVE, and as far as i am concerned there is no grinding.

the quests you do them for your guild/corp/clan/faction/alliance

example 1 (EVE)

your guild needs to farm x amount of ore, they need a "fighter" to protect the "miner"

mission objectives: primary: the miner must survive, secondary, kill any incoming threat

 

example 2 (SWG)

the guild crafter needs x amount of hides to make new chairs and sofas for the guild hall.

mission objectives, primary: find and locate (insertname) hides, of quality 500 or more, secondary: kill and loot (insertname) to gather the hides and bring them back to the crafter.

 

example 3...

ok i need to go to a meeting so use your imagination and fill in the example 3.

you do not need quests given by NPCs for an MMO to work, its the community that makes it work or not. if its open with very few limitations then the human nature will take over and create a living breathing interindependent world.

 

 

Not every game should be the same and No I do not like Eve its a fine game,but I would rather feel like I am accomplishing something while I am at it ,other than select this skill and wait 2 weeks to get it.I played Eve and it was an ok game to me I am not dishing it others like it not me.In SWG as a crafter what do you do for the most part to level,ahh let me see you make this item over n over until you run out of resources and rinse and repeat. Leveling a crafter in SWG sucks,its only when its finished does the crafting in there begins to be fun.Example Number 3 Not every gamer is a Hard core gamer and actually has a Real Life and is not interested in Living in a Game.

1. Some games have skill based systems... But people are nostalgic creatures and enjoy the number. It shows you have attained more power because you spent time here devoting your all to it. It shows dedication, rather than just a number. But Skill systems work just as well. Just because you have the skills/abilities, doesn't mean you know how to use them. I have often in games, used a 'lowbie' char, or rather... One with lower skills on the list... And killed people with better skills. Having them is one thing, knowing how to properly utilize them is another entirely.

2. Loot based systems can be altered or abolished. An alteration would be... NO RARE ITEMS. That is correct, every item has an equal amount of chance to drop as the next. If a mob is carrying one of 10 drops on him, each has a 10% chance to drop. That means you'd not have to farm a baddie endlessly... Only a few hours or less and you'd have all they have to give. I hate games that for example, Cabal Online has these hover board and hover bikes... They have the LOWEST drop rate of any item in any game ever made in the history of gaming. Someone calculated the drop rate to the point, you could literally play the game for 2 years... And never once acquire the drop! *That is 2 years in game time, not real life time.

3. Simplicity... Go play Age Of Armor. It is one of the most complex mech games out there. But still, it is sort of like Armored Core Light, as that game was the deepest ever made... Far as I know. You want even harder gameplay set in a more sci fi fantasy setting? Load up Anarchy Online. The amount of skill paths and stat paths is overwhelming to anyone that isn't a seasoned gamer. *Extra pepper on the gamer please.

4. Agreed. Penalties for being with friends is absurd. Most game don't have this tho. In AOA as I aforementioned, if you group with a full 6, you get almost double xp I believe. Same thing in 9dragons and various other games I've play. One tiny problem with AOA, either bad translation or something... If you kill an enemy mob that is 5 or more levels over you... Showing how well you built your char and how powerful you are... The game TAKES exp away from you! That is completely backwards of just about all games. Actually, I've played a few that if the mob is too high, it just don't give any exp at all. Stupid.

5. Questing isn't so bad if you do it tastefully. If it is not WRITTEN, but SPOKEN verbally, in your language of choice in the options... Completely voice acted. Then it becomes more entertaining. You don't need to hire famous people to do it either. 2moons had people submit voice samples of people saying lines... And although it was just a line or 2 here and there, it brought the atmosphere up. Now I've played offline games with voice acting, but sometimes it seems emotionless. Either get a Animé cast to do it... Or have people submit the stuff you want. Sure it'll take ages to sort through all them and hear them all and choose the good ones... But it is cheaper and more of a better way to get people to play a fun game... Or else it will come a day when you will have to hire people to be NPCS! Make the quests, say to fetch something from somewhere... Make it worth your while and time. It should require a party to do it. ALL Quests should require a party. That way you get the Multiplayer going. And people will ALWAYS want to party with you, if they want to quest.

6. Fantasy MMO's are the money maker right now. Although AOA is mech based and sci fi... So is RF Online. And then there is the genre that you can't even put a category on... Ryzom comes to mind. Just watch the videos on the site... You are like "What the heck is THAT thing?". This leads to another topic... NO MORE GENERIC MONSTERS! That's right, I said it. Tired of fighting you 1 billionth spider variation? Tired of hunting your millionth wolf of some kind? What, a giant? Where? Oh yeah, just make it bigger. And the main problem of ALL games... Palate swap FTW! Change its colors or invert them, this makes the thing stronger for some reason! Does this work for my char too? Can I splash paint on me for a tie-dye look and instantly become 4 times stronger?! Heck yeah, I'd be all for that lol. Seriously, we need to have things like Ryzom. Mobs that no one has ever seen before. No, I have NOT played Ryzom (yet).

7. Forums are good, but only if they are PLAYER owned and operated. Not 'official'. Why? Because they hire people to be moderators... Or run a search for the most adolescent people they can find... And these people hoard their omnipotent power of deletion of posts, or ban of people... I refuse to be blocked. I happen to live in one of the countries with freedom of speech. I will be 'heard' I erm, mean READ! Speaking of which, some idiot - yes an idiot... Removed one of my posts on THIS website. I happen to save a copy of every post I make, the url and the time and date of it. So I know I posted it. But someone went all ninja-like and deleted it. Didn't give me a warning, or explain why they did it. Didn't message me in my inbox or email me... Nothing! So apparently I am too thought provoking for MMORPG.com's hired goons.

8. Down with instance dungeons! There should be access to a dungeon through a mine shaft or something... And EVERYONE that wants to go in there can at will. 2moons has this sort of... Their dungeons are accessed by everyone. But they also have instanced ones... Which I don't like. And not only that, if you took the size and scope of Perfect World... And made a DUNGEON that was THAT BIG and huge... That everyone could go to like the underworld any time they wanted... Now that would be amazing. That game is quite massive... But we've all seen bigger of course. (I can't think of any game bigger than EverQuest. I was told some guy started walking, and it took him 2 weeks to walk the whole game. No fighting at all, just strolling along.) Anyway, dungeons should be open to everyone at all times. Not random spawned, or you must have a party of certain levels to enter it. I still think a party should be required for all quests. Dungeons are optional, like the 'over world'... You can party if you wish.

9. PVP should always be OPTIONAL. A button you can turn on that has like an icon next to you that says, sure... I'd like to pvp any time you want to. But you would still have to be challenged formally. REMOVE PK'ING ENTIRELY! No more PK, EVER again. I am sick of playing solo or out with a group of friends and people show up hours later and 'claim' this spot is theirs or something... Then they wipe us all out, or we kick their butts... I hate being attacked when I am minding my own business. If I am on a quest, especially a TIMED quest (everyone's favorite...) the LAST thing I want to do is be killed and have to re-do the entire quest again! PK'ing should be removed from every single game made, and never implemented for all games to come. This is a subject I am very passionate about. I like to play solo on occasion, and of course party as well... I don't like to be randomly attacked by a much higher level player that is having a bad day... Or is a demented simpleton... Or just is a rotten evil bastard... Nope, I would rather a formal challenge that pops up on screen. And, maybe take it a step further... You can only challenge someone that is NOT in a battle with something... Another person or mob or whatnot. I don't believe we should limit PvP to a certain area... I mean, throw an arena in there for people that want their name on a board. This shows who has earned that spot up there... A Ranking system. But, you don't HAVE to go there to PvP... Also, maybe a feature where you can record your battles and people can go to the arena like a theater and watch how you accomplished it. Like a lower level taking out someone 10 or more levels... Or has more skills than them... That would be fun to see. We also need a PvP text/chat channel... That allows people to issue challenges... And to be invited to the spectacle!

(10.) I refuse to pay for any online game. Why should I pay the electric bill, the cable bill, have purchased a expensive PC, then (maybe) purchased the game from a store... Now you want me to pay you $15 a month?! You are out of your damn mind - period! Get rid of paying for games per month. That is just stupid. You can have advertising that is subtle in there. Whether it is within the games context or not...

(11.) If you are going to have a Item Mall/Cash Shop... Build a damn mall in the game! A place where we can go and look at the items. Try them on... (Asda Story has something similar. If you click on an item to buy in the npc shop, it 'equips' to you and you can see what it looks like. But this requires certain positioning of your char for full effect.) If we are going to pay in game currency or real world money for an item... I want to be able to SEE it first! Number one rule of business, 'Never buy something sight unseen!'. If it is a ride/mount... I want to be able to take it for a test drive in the mall's built in little track/race track. If it is a mount that I can use to fly... I want to ride on the damn thing for 20 minutes until I am good at it... Even car dealerships allow you to test drive their vehicle before you buy it! C'mon people, think about it!

(12.) 'Bosses' or whatever you wish to call them these days. Make them Epic Titans in size... RF Online has some massive ones... But I want bosses the size of the ones in Shadow Of The Colossus! And yes, it would not only take a party to kill it... but MANY MANY parties! And Exp goes to EVERYONE who attacked it, as long as they were in a party. It doesn't go to the party that killed the thing. Everyone gets it. And on top of that... Legendary loot that bosses are known to drop... Well, how about a random system that gives all attackers something instantly in their inventory? Instead of ninja-looters or having things drop... People would go into a boss fight with a nearly empty inventory, ready to receive a goody. And EVERYONE gets something! Although some people would get a more valuable or rare item, everyone gets at least something. And not crap either, not a potion or something. A cool leveled up weapon or something, a ton of money... But some lucky people in the randomly selected party would get not only the rewards everyone else got... But a bonus on top of it, something REALLY worth killing a boss for. Like a Flying Mount or a potion/pill that gives invincibility for 24 hours.

(13.) This leads me to "Timed Items". That 24 hours would be GAMEPLAY time, when you are logged in. Not when you are at work or asleep. That is just wrong... Stop that!

(14.) Stalls/Shops/Kiosk Screw them all! I mean it. Remove this from games. The amount of lag I get in the Malaysian Perfect World Oracle Sever at ADC... I literally can not move 10 feet in 5 minutes! RF Online has a nice 'auction house' system. It isn't really an auction at all. People put up an item, and the price they want for it... And you either buy it or you don't. I do NOT like the fact that the auction takes a percentage of your price away as comission. And this money goes to like the top guild/guild leader... Or whatever happens to it. Stop robbing us for using a service that should be free! If anything, have a salesman's license you can purchase for something... And this allows you to sell on it for free... For like 6 months... Then you must buy a new one. Kinda like some car insurance. Whether or not you make this a 'cash shop' item or not is up to you.

(15.) Cash Shop items... If you want our money for something, that is fine. But much like Perfect World or Rohan... Give us the option to EARN the 'cash shop currency' with in game currency and hard work/play/fun. Don't just reward the rich people out there... Or people that spend money like water, just cause they have no sense. I understand you worked hard for that money, either by yourself in a actual job... Or as a little kid begging his parents... (or mowing lawns or chores.) But you shouldn't be able to just throw TONS at the game... There should be a limit to how much you can purchase off the item shop in a month or something. Preferably in a week. Some people have no sense in when to stop shopping lol. So cap it at like $50 a month or better yet, every OTHER month! And you'll have to wait until next time...

(16.) Losing Exp Or Items when you die. This is the most unforgivable thing you can ever do to a person... Make them have to replay 'levels' or regain the same exp they already earned... Remove this 'feature' before something really bad happens... Like you stop having ANY players at all.

Really, I could go on and on... But I already posted we need a Gamers Forum/Site built that we can go and create our own game... And then someone make that damn thing. We shouldn't all be required to instantly go to college or something to learn how to program and draw and such... Just so we can make our dream game... That would take YEARS. Meanwhile, the rest of us suffer with good ideas that won't get made for years to come... I understand someone has to do the learning and such... But like actors don't write the scripts... They just memorize and recite... Gamers should create the game worlds in TEXT... Then others can go make the game. Btw, view my other posts to see some really good incites on this and other topics. *Shameless plug for my work and effort.*

In conclusion... INCLUDE - the Gamer in everything. Don't keep people in the dark. Don't keep secrets that you reveal at a convention. It isn't like the vast majority of your target market is going to have enough money to take an air plane to your show and see stuff there. Plus the money for hotels, and food and all that is included with a trip. That is just wrong. You need to create a web site... Get some promotion from a tv ad or something... And word of mouth will spread like wild fire. Then the gamers can suggest stuff to put in or take out of your game. Have everything you are going to put in the game, all your ideas and features... All of it typed up and maybe with sketches... That way, within the context of the game genre you are making... We gamers can come in and say, this is good - do this. Or this is crap, take that out immediately and slap the guy/girl who thought of it!

END

FOX

Originally posted by Abrahmm

1) Levels.

Levels are a cheap, poor way to provide instant gratifications to the masses that are unable to find other ways to make progress. This arbitrary number slapped on the top of a character's head has the ability to render a great majority of game content completely worthless. I hate the idea that this number is the sole determination on how strong your character is, and what the outcome of the fight will be. Remove levels, and make some games with skill box based systems!

2) Loot based economies

Loot based economies essential make time in game take precedence over skill. Being able to devote more of your life to a game shouldn't mean you automatically dominate those who can't play as much. Allow player skill to actually play a part in a fight, not just how many purples each person has. Loot also makes people run the same boring awful dungeons over and over again just so they can get that one item to drop. Loot based systems more often then not make crafting a pointless hobby for the select few that enjoy it. Very rarely do you see a loot based system with a creative, meaningful crafting system. Remove loot based systems and make crafters the major suppliers!

3) Simplicity

Why has simple become better? Some of us out here still like to think when we play our games. Some of us are more than mindless drones waiting to be spoon fed what to do next in my epic pre-determined saga of heroism that everyone else will endure. I want to think, I want to be challenged! Remove simplicity and challenge me!

4) XP penalties for grouping

This one makes no sense to me. Why punish people for grouping up and working together in an online game designed for people to group up and work together? All XP penalties do is encourage solo play defeats the purpose of MMORPGs. Remove XP penalties for grouping and encourage social interaction again!

5) Boring linear gameplay

I absolutely despise questing. It's boring, incredibly repetitive, and because of number 3 on my list, lonely. I also hate being forced to quest. Occasionally I'll quest  with someone, but it doesn't make much sense when all it does is slow you down. The worst part of forced questing to level is, if you decide to level another character, you have to do the same horrible quests again. My favorite way to level was the ways of Star Wars Galaxies. Sure, it was boring repetitive grinding on mobs, but the difference is that I was with a full group of people, and just interacting with them was far more entertaining then any static repetitive quest could ever be. Remove boring linear gameplay and figure other ways to progress!

6) FANTASY!

For god's sake how many fantasy MMO's do we have to drown in every single year? I was never a big fan of fantasy, but lately that's all we see. Fantasy fantasy fantasy! Give us a good Sci-fi MMO, or think of some theme completely different! Remove the fantasy and be original!

7) Official forums

Has anything good ever come from having Official forums for a game? Nearly every game I've ever seen with official forums, they become nothing more then a stagnant swamp of tears from all the most vocal whiners in the community. Whats worse is many times the developers start to listen to these whiners. Remove official forums and make the game the way you want it!

8) Instancing(from bloodytv and I agree)

Instancing seperates the community and makes pickup groups difficult.  A dungeon/world should be big enough that if some place has people, there are other places in that said world/dungeon to go that can provide a good challenge/loot.

9) Small Scale PvP

Battlegrounds, arenas, and the likes all start out fun, and can still be fun on occasion, but eventually just turn into another form of dungeon grinding. Small scale instanced pvp takes away from the feeling of fighting in a larger conflict and is incredibly repetitive. Remove small scale PvP and give us a reason to take part in world PvP!

I know I have more but thats all I can think of right now. Add on or comment as you wish.

definitely agree with this, except official forums arent bad, i know with SWG it is a big part of the game (since the game sucks...) but it gives people the chance to interact with EVERYONE and it is a lot easier for devs to interact with the community

and yeah, add item malls for F2P games

Originally posted by Abrahmm

1) Levels.

Levels are a cheap, poor way to provide instant gratifications to the masses that are unable to find other ways to make progress. This arbitrary number slapped on the top of a character's head has the ability to render a great majority of game content completely worthless. I hate the idea that this number is the sole determination on how strong your character is, and what the outcome of the fight will be. Remove levels, and make some games with skill box based systems!

2) Loot based economies

Loot based economies essential make time in game take precedence over skill. Being able to devote more of your life to a game shouldn't mean you automatically dominate those who can't play as much. Allow player skill to actually play a part in a fight, not just how many purples each person has. Loot also makes people run the same boring awful dungeons over and over again just so they can get that one item to drop. Loot based systems more often then not make crafting a pointless hobby for the select few that enjoy it. Very rarely do you see a loot based system with a creative, meaningful crafting system. Remove loot based systems and make crafters the major suppliers!

3) Simplicity

Why has simple become better? Some of us out here still like to think when we play our games. Some of us are more than mindless drones waiting to be spoon fed what to do next in my epic pre-determined saga of heroism that everyone else will endure. I want to think, I want to be challenged! Remove simplicity and challenge me!

4) XP penalties for grouping

This one makes no sense to me. Why punish people for grouping up and working together in an online game designed for people to group up and work together? All XP penalties do is encourage solo play defeats the purpose of MMORPGs. Remove XP penalties for grouping and encourage social interaction again!

5) Boring linear gameplay

I absolutely despise questing. It's boring, incredibly repetitive, and because of number 3 on my list, lonely. I also hate being forced to quest. Occasionally I'll quest  with someone, but it doesn't make much sense when all it does is slow you down. The worst part of forced questing to level is, if you decide to level another character, you have to do the same horrible quests again. My favorite way to level was the ways of Star Wars Galaxies. Sure, it was boring repetitive grinding on mobs, but the difference is that I was with a full group of people, and just interacting with them was far more entertaining then any static repetitive quest could ever be. Remove boring linear gameplay and figure other ways to progress!

6) FANTASY!

For god's sake how many fantasy MMO's do we have to drown in every single year? I was never a big fan of fantasy, but lately that's all we see. Fantasy fantasy fantasy! Give us a good Sci-fi MMO, or think of some theme completely different! Remove the fantasy and be original!

7) Official forums

Has anything good ever come from having Official forums for a game? Nearly every game I've ever seen with official forums, they become nothing more then a stagnant swamp of tears from all the most vocal whiners in the community. Whats worse is many times the developers start to listen to these whiners. Remove official forums and make the game the way you want it!

8) Instancing(from bloodytv and I agree)

Instancing seperates the community and makes pickup groups difficult.  A dungeon/world should be big enough that if some place has people, there are other places in that said world/dungeon to go that can provide a good challenge/loot.

9) Small Scale PvP

Battlegrounds, arenas, and the likes all start out fun, and can still be fun on occasion, but eventually just turn into another form of dungeon grinding. Small scale instanced pvp takes away from the feeling of fighting in a larger conflict and is incredibly repetitive. Remove small scale PvP and give us a reason to take part in world PvP!

I know I have more but thats all I can think of right now. Add on or comment as you wish.

It honestly sounds to me like your ideal MMO would be Untreal tournament or Team Fortress 2...

Originally posted by l3lasphemer

It honestly sounds to me like your ideal MMO would be Untreal tournament or Team Fortress 2...

 

and i think you missed post #22

EVE online and  SWG-prepub9 (pre-cu) is/was like that

Originally posted by Squal'Zell

Originally posted by l3lasphemer

It honestly sounds to me like your ideal MMO would be Untreal tournament or Team Fortress 2...

 

 

and i think you missed post #22

EVE online and  SWG-prepub9 (pre-cu) is/was like that

QFT...

Originally posted by BerzerkerFox

Really, I could go on and on... But I already posted we need a Gamers Forum/Site built that we can go and create our own game... And then someone make that damn thing. We shouldn't all be required to instantly go to college or something to learn how to program and draw and such... Just so we can make our dream game... That would take YEARS. Meanwhile, the rest of us suffer with good ideas that won't get made for years to come... I understand someone has to do the learning and such... But like actors don't write the scripts... They just memorize and recite... Gamers should create the game worlds in TEXT... Then others can go make the game. Btw, view my other posts to see some really good incites on this and other topics. *Shameless plug for my work and effort.*

Thats funny you mention that. After waiting so long for a good game to come out with what I (and I believe many other people, especially ex- SWG players) want, I started writing up a document for my own game. Just thinking about different things that could be done is entertaining enough, but I think I have come up with (by myself that is) some very fun and revolutionary stuff that I haven't seen in any other game. Granted a lot of the stuff in my game is from games like SWG, but there is a lot that is different. This also made me wonder how I myself could come up with so much cool stuff, yet large teams of game designers can't come up with anything original? I am currently studying Computer Science, and while I can't yet even begin to tackle making a game, I do plan on trying to do something with this game I have outlined when the time is right.

I agree with the OP. But heres something that I hate, absolutely hate and I see in almost every MMO:

MAKE IT SKILL BASED PLEASE.

I am just sick and tired of the same linear defined classes. Warrior-Tank, Priest-Healer, Mage-DPS, Assassin-Melee DPS, Ranger-Ranged DPS etc etc

What ever happened to SKILL BASED!!?

REMOVE CLASSES.

What we really need is an mmo that lets you be a hamburger that eats people for exp.

If QUESTS are done like MORROWIND or OBLIVION they can be a nice adventure in themselfs or a nice story with gamelore.

You just implement quests like those games only give freedom like those games had you can do quests or just go your own way, i dont see any problem with quests then?

Originally posted by mike470

Originally posted by tillamook

Add item malls to that list

 

and nudity.

Yes, nudity is vey bad. 

If you remove the levels then you will just have a Second Life type of game and I'm not intrested in such.