Originally posted by Scrogdog

Originally posted by Spooky1013

 

I have to disagree.

Do you have any idea how many times the world has been predicted to end in my life time? I'm 50 years old, BTW. :)

The problem with your model is the same problem with ALL models that attempt to predict the future, be it famine or global warming or what have you. The problem is that all models do is to carry the present in to the future. I can't think of a single instance where this proved to be a useful endeavor.

In 1960, a *scientist* by the name of Paul Erlich said, "The battle to feed humanity is over. In the 1970s the world will undergo famines - hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death". Did it happen? Nope. Why? Because technology that he had no hope of predicting outpaced his model.

In 1990, climate modelers estimated a world population of 11 billion by 2100. Today many scientists believe that the number will be closer to 7 billion.

Now, lets look at this in reverse. If people 100 years ago were to worry about where we'd be today, what do you think they'd worry about? Probably, where would the world get enough horses? And what would be done with all of the dung? :)

Horse pollution was a serious problem in 1900. But, what was logic THEN is not the logic of today, right?

In my opinion, such predictions based on flawed models are a complete waste of time. You are welcome to your opinion, of course, but the history of like events and predictions are not in your side in this matter. Far from it, in fact.

  First of all, they were barely a decade or 2 out of practically the old west in 1900. That's an exaggeration but the scientists and the world were still very primitive then. They didn't have the time to accumulate knowledge and were just beginning to learn things. They couldn't conceive the world today, and our needs, our resource consumption. The reality is there won't be many more major technological leaps for at least another 30 to 40 years. There are always a few, but the ones made will most likely only make more hungry mouths to feed and not help supply energy or truely make the majority of our lives much easier. We may in fact have to sacrifice some of our comforts to make room for primitives sooner or later.

If suddenly cold fusion is achieved, livestock is genetically-engineered to grow full size in a matter of weeks and can be kept sustained themselves in a very cheap, efficient manner, and third-world nations stop popping out babies like bubblegum machines... as well as never placing too many energy demands themselves... I'll hand you a thousand bucks.

 Without an unrealistic leap in knowledge and the ability to apply it efficiently... eventually people in a hundred or two hundred, or however many more years will be kicking themselves and cursing us. I don't see it as very realistic that efficient energy use and practical and common renewable sources of energy as well as quickly raised and satisfying food sources will be discovered, created or whatever before we outgrow ourselves. Especially when many primitive countries are sitting on resources that could be used but for the fact that occupying or demanding in return for aid would cause too many other real nations to complain. If they were to industrialize, they'd behave the way China is.

Originally posted by Ascension08

You're the reason for:

MMORPG = Many Men Online Roleplaying Girls.

I guess if you'd go THAT far for free items and no work, nothing is unethical. Real girls manipulate and control us guys too much as it is, now guys are doing it to other guys through MMOs? What has the world come to !

Wow, you really have no idea what ethic is.

And to the OP:

Doing what you do so elaborately, and come to ask at a forum if that's unethical... Do you really don't know the answer?

Men tricking men... "Women do it all the time to us"... Wow, isn't that great? Now we even turn against ourselves...

What a beautiful future we're creating... no wonder mmogs are much more solo-content oriented - who would want to group with such dangerous individuals??

This thread definitely stayed on track.

Originally posted by Spooky1013

If suddenly cold fusion is achieved, livestock is genetically-engineered to grow full size in a matter of weeks and can be kept sustained themselves in a very cheap, efficient manner, and third-world nations stop popping out babies like bubblegum machines... as well as never placing too many energy demands themselves... I'll hand you a thousand bucks.

Food isn't as big of a problem as it might appear.  We have the capability to produce enough food for everyone, but for a variety of reasons it's not getting distributed to these third world countries.

Population growth tends to drop off naturally when a country becomes urbanized.  The death rates in some first world nations are actually higher than the birth rates, although immigration could to make up the difference.  We see this trend all the time.  As soon as a country goes from a rural to urban economy, birth rates drop off quickly.

I don't know about energy, but the point I'm trying to make is that the root of the above two problems is poverty.  If the world economy continues to improve (and it has been), then these problems are not unsolvable.  Not saying we shouldn't worry about them, on the contrary if we know we can solve them, we should.  We do this by fighting third world poverty.

Anyways, on topic, I have to agree that it is unethical in light of the fact that you're taking it outside of the game.  Once you start falsely representing your real world self and making real financial gains, it stops being "just a game".

I actually sort of had something like this happen to me once, and I'm not socially disabled or incompetant as far as I know. 

In SWG a female character was asking around for help getting some better clothes.  I tried to tell her (I'm calling that person "her" because the avatar was female, although in retrospect it did look like it was designed by a guy) how to find a tailor, but she asked if I could make some.  I had only the most basic apparel crafting skills, and I tried to explain this, but she wanted them anyway.  I decided to help her, because she seemed like she needed help and it wasn't that inconvinient for me.  I actually helped newbies of either gender all the time.  It had nothing to do with her being female. 

After I agreed, she offered to be my "personal dancer" for a month.  I wasn't exactly sure what that meant, but I figured it was better than nothing, so I accepted.  Next day, she tells me someone offered her a lot of money for the month.  She refused to return what I gave her.

On one hand, I might say the joke was on her because I gave her cheap newbie gear, and it took her longer to scam me than it did for me to make it.  On the other hand, she got the satisfaction of thinking she successfully took advantage of me, while I just got frustration and irritation.

It bothers me because she knew I was going to give her that stuff for free anyway.  I was not trying to hit on her or anything, I was just trying to be helpful, something I frequently did to any player who asked nicely. 

I one time created a female avatar on another server to see if the rumors were true.  Sure enough, I was only there a short time when someone gave me a full suit of armor and some other stuff.  I felt kind of bad about it afterwards.  While he initiated contact with me, I didn't ask for anything, and I didn't claim to be female IRL (he didn't ask), I did pretend to be new when I wasn't.  If I hadn't, perhaps I wouldn't of considered it immoral to accept a gift given of someone's free will.

Anyways, deception for financial gain is unethical and often illegal in the real world.  Social Darwinism is a poor philosophy to live by.  Just because other people do something does not make it less unethical.

CaptainTroll what this bullshit with dog eat dog world yea sure you being so smartass but when you get scammed cheated or whatever (in RL) or someone of your family you got to police... oh right wait you tell to yourself ah right my grandma mom or whatever got scammed they deserve it. right ?  people who doing the scamming need feed the families no ? and don't tell me if someone broke to your house killed all your family cut your legs and what you going to do is tell ah it's dog eat dog world so sure it's fine right ?

Originally posted by betatry

CaptainTroll what this bullshit with dog eat dog world yea sure you being so smartass but when you get scammed (in RL)or someone of your family you got to police... oh right wait you tell to yourself ah right my grandma mom or whatever got scammed they deserve it. right ?  people who doing the scumming need feed the families no ? and don't tell me if someone broke to your house killed all your family cut your legs and what you going to do is tell ah it's dog eat dog world so sure it's fine right ?

I'm not sure why, but somehow I have this weird feeling that CaptainTroll just might be a troll.

Unethical? Hah!

How about hilarious? Cunning? Worthy of praise?

Any males who think this practice unethical are as big an embarrassment to the male sex as those who pander to a female avatar on an online game.

Kudos to the OP.

Originally posted by damond5031

Like the topic says I play a girl toon in the mmo's I play,and , i;m a guy. I know i;m not the only one that does this, but the level I take it to makes me wonder if I need to have my head examined.

You see not only do I present the persona of a female player in cyberspace but I make my companions believe that im also a chick in the "real" world. I have stories that begin with my childhood all the way to the present; complete with fake parents, schools, jobs ect.  I even email photos of women I find online to make things even more believable. "None of those model photos for me, those aren't believable at all...I take them from other folks family galleries.

Now you might ask...why. would you do such a thing?  The simple answer,  is greed. I hook lonely men into falling in love with me online so that they will buy me great items in game. Heck I even let them use my account to level me while im at work. I just do the fun things while im online..no grinding for me..my "boyfriends" do it for me.

So I guess im wondering if i'm alone in these twisted endeavors; and is it really all that unethical that I do this? These guys think they are talking to a cute girl and derive great pleasure from doing so. Heck I even throw in a little dirty talk every once in a while.

Well... it might be fun for you but you have to think about the possible danger. If you con some guy who happened to be pretty savy on the internet, they could potentially track you down and hurt you in real life. I'm not saying that it can definitely happen but it can potentially happen. There was this story I read on the odd section of Yahoo! News about some guy taunting/harassing another guy's wife on an MMORPG and the wife's husband tracked that guy down, went to his place with 2 other people beat up the guy (he ended up with a broken nose) and trashed his place (including destroying his computers and other expensive electronic equipment). The assault was of course reported (hence it was on the news) but I am not sure the case has been resolved yet.

Originally posted by Impacatus

In SWG a female character was asking around for help getting some better clothes.  I tried to tell her (I'm calling that person "her" because the avatar was female, although in retrospect it did look like it was designed by a guy) how to find a tailor, but she asked if I could make some.  I had only the most basic apparel crafting skills, and I tried to explain this, but she wanted them anyway.  I decided to help her, because she seemed like she needed help and it wasn't that inconvinient for me.  I actually helped newbies of either gender all the time.  It had nothing to do with her being female. 

After I agreed, she offered to be my "personal dancer" for a month.  I wasn't exactly sure what that meant, but I figured it was better than nothing, so I accepted.  Next day, she tells me someone offered her a lot of money for the month.  She refused to return what I gave her.

On one hand, I might say the joke was on her because I gave her cheap newbie gear, and it took her longer to scam me than it did for me to make it.  On the other hand, she got the satisfaction of thinking she successfully took advantage of me, while I just got frustration and irritation.

It bothers me because she knew I was going to give her that stuff for free anyway.  I was not trying to hit on her or anything, I was just trying to be helpful, something I frequently did to any player who asked nicely. 

I one time created a female avatar on another server to see if the rumors were true.  Sure enough, I was only there a short time when someone gave me a full suit of armor and some other stuff.  I felt kind of bad about it afterwards.  While he initiated contact with me, I didn't ask for anything, and I didn't claim to be female IRL (he didn't ask), I did pretend to be new when I wasn't.  If I hadn't, perhaps I wouldn't of considered it immoral to accept a gift given of someone's free will.

Anyways, deception for financial gain is unethical and often illegal in the real world.  Social Darwinism is a poor philosophy to live by.  Just because other people do something does not make it less unethical.

  I ran into some really rude chicks playing an old game, and once in a while there are some like you've described. I think that really was a chick, the chicks tend to be more blunt and display the sense of entitlement (the beechines) where after talking to some guys that have done it, the guys say they always work on people and try to say and act as they'd want someone to. They'd kinda feel a person out and figure the best things to say to 'um, and the right people to go for.

  Lol the guys tend to put a Lot of thought into it sometimes, but some chicks probably do as well. I met a guy on a game once who made tons of game money cybering people and they didn't even know it was a dude. It's childish but I laughed and said I wished I had the balls to do that lol. Not my thing though.

   The person you spoke about sounds like a young chick to me, possibly not even drinking age or just around there if. A lot of young women these days have a sense of entitlement and lack of remorse with that behavior, many I've met in real life seem to have been pampered too much lol. That's obviously not too good for the ego but being hot does letcha get away with some things I wreckon. I don't put up with that on or offline though.

 I'd made a chick character once myself, I had a good name I wanted to use and I figured it'd be an interesting social experiment since I was told by a lot of women that they were constantly harassed in groups by guys. I never said anything sexual or lead anyone on and I blocked sexual remarks, especially in personal tells, just had the same kinds of group chats I had on my male characters to pass the time time between pull and spawn waits and buffing and what not. If people had paid attention, which many actually did and I made a few good friends on the server so I built up the character, it could've been noticed easily by my personality that I was a guy. A couple of guys in one the first groups on that character that I remember offered their help with this & that & to show me things, give 'extras' of this and that and when I said I'm a dude poof they weren't free any more and suddenly became busy lol.

About your bottom paragraph, there are some clever people that manage to get away with it in real life mainly by sympathy-mooching I'll call it. After Katrina some dicks did that, acted homeless and poor, never asked for a single thing, it was all offered so it was legally considered gifts and there were no charges filed the last I knew. I learned about it on Montel, he had one of the duped families on as guests. Shitty thing there it's kinda ironic though when some people go to jail for minor things (like forgetting to pay tickets) and those people get to run around and mooch again if they're lucky. They even used their kids to invoke sympathy lol. That's very low.

 By the way I like helping newer players as well, that's the mentor in me I guess I like teaching things, it can sometimes make ya some pretty devoted friends especially if you wanna make or have made afresh character and level and quest with um for a while. Some of my best buds in that game I met on fresh characters

Originally posted by damond5031

Like the topic says I play a girl toon in the mmo's I play,and , i;m a guy. I know i;m not the only one that does this, but the level I take it to makes me wonder if I need to have my head examined.

You see not only do I present the persona of a female player in cyberspace but I make my companions believe that im also a chick in the "real" world. I have stories that begin with my childhood all the way to the present; complete with fake parents, schools, jobs ect.  I even email photos of women I find online to make things even more believable. "None of those model photos for me, those aren't believable at all...I take them from other folks family galleries.

Now you might ask...why. would you do such a thing?  The simple answer,  is greed. I hook lonely men into falling in love with me online so that they will buy me great items in game. Heck I even let them use my account to level me while im at work. I just do the fun things while im online..no grinding for me..my "boyfriends" do it for me.

So I guess im wondering if i'm alone in these twisted endeavors; and is it really all that unethical that I do this? These guys think they are talking to a cute girl and derive great pleasure from doing so. Heck I even throw in a little dirty talk every once in a while.

Seems to me you're giving them what they want and they give you what you want. Nothing wrong with that. If anything, I applaud you!
 

Hahahaha reminds me of one of my EQ1 alts, "Twogoldtotouch"

I don't see the OP taking advantage of lonely guys.   I see the OP preventing some bimbo from taking advantage of a lonely guy. 

Every MMO I've played 'females' get preferential treatment.  So why shouldn't a man have an opportunity to receive the same treatment in a virtual world?  

Doubt what I'm saying, play a female character in an MMO and find out for yourself.    I have played many MMOs and usually with multiple accounts.   I typically would make my main character then on a second account a female character.    I always found, even other women would treat my female character far nicer, give her far more, help her level, invite her to groups, etc.  

So more power to guys who wish to capitalize on this MMO sexism.   

Originally posted by damond5031

Like the topic says I play a girl toon in the mmo's I play,and , i;m a guy. I know i;m not the only one that does this, but the level I take it to makes me wonder if I need to have my head examined.

You see not only do I present the persona of a female player in cyberspace but I make my companions believe that im also a chick in the "real" world. I have stories that begin with my childhood all the way to the present; complete with fake parents, schools, jobs ect.  I even email photos of women I find online to make things even more believable. "None of those model photos for me, those aren't believable at all...I take them from other folks family galleries.

Now you might ask...why. would you do such a thing?  The simple answer,  is greed. I hook lonely men into falling in love with me online so that they will buy me great items in game. Heck I even let them use my account to level me while im at work. I just do the fun things while im online..no grinding for me..my "boyfriends" do it for me.

So I guess im wondering if i'm alone in these twisted endeavors; and is it really all that unethical that I do this? These guys think they are talking to a cute girl and derive great pleasure from doing so. Heck I even throw in a little dirty talk every once in a while.

First off, you are taking advantage of a real person! Nuff said there, but if they are foolish enough to be your cyber slave then they are just that fools! I play for fun not to pick up women, but then again I am married and have a son!

Second, as far as I'm concerned you should have your head checked because you carry the female persona waaaaay to far!

If someone gives you things because they want to impress a female in an MMO then I say they invite it.  People forget this is a game and not match.com. 

In the words of the immortal Jason Nesmith:

"There is no "quantum flux". There's no "auxiliary". THERE'S NO GODDAMNED SHIP. You got it?

Originally posted by damond5031

Like the topic says I play a girl toon in the mmo's I play,and , i;m a guy. I know i;m not the only one that does this, but the level I take it to makes me wonder if I need to have my head examined.

You see not only do I present the persona of a female player in cyberspace but I make my companions believe that im also a chick in the "real" world. I have stories that begin with my childhood all the way to the present; complete with fake parents, schools, jobs ect.  I even email photos of women I find online to make things even more believable. "None of those model photos for me, those aren't believable at all...I take them from other folks family galleries.

Now you might ask...why. would you do such a thing?  The simple answer,  is greed. I hook lonely men into falling in love with me online so that they will buy me great items in game. Heck I even let them use my account to level me while im at work. I just do the fun things while im online..no grinding for me..my "boyfriends" do it for me.

So I guess im wondering if i'm alone in these twisted endeavors; and is it really all that unethical that I do this? These guys think they are talking to a cute girl and derive great pleasure from doing so. Heck I even throw in a little dirty talk every once in a while.

This is so not new.  People have been doing this since MMO began.  At this point I just assume most girl avatars are men anyways.  So your post does not shock or suprise. 

Originally posted by Honos

Originally posted by damond5031

Like the topic says I play a girl toon in the mmo's I play,and , i;m a guy. I know i;m not the only one that does this, but the level I take it to makes me wonder if I need to have my head examined.

You see not only do I present the persona of a female player in cyberspace but I make my companions believe that im also a chick in the "real" world. I have stories that begin with my childhood all the way to the present; complete with fake parents, schools, jobs ect.  I even email photos of women I find online to make things even more believable. "None of those model photos for me, those aren't believable at all...I take them from other folks family galleries.

Now you might ask...why. would you do such a thing?  The simple answer,  is greed. I hook lonely men into falling in love with me online so that they will buy me great items in game. Heck I even let them use my account to level me while im at work. I just do the fun things while im online..no grinding for me..my "boyfriends" do it for me.

So I guess im wondering if i'm alone in these twisted endeavors; and is it really all that unethical that I do this? These guys think they are talking to a cute girl and derive great pleasure from doing so. Heck I even throw in a little dirty talk every once in a while.

 

This is so not new.  People have been doing this since MMO began.  At this point I just assume most girl avatars and men anyways.  So your post does not shock or suprise. 

Agreed.  Most girl avatars are men who construct elaborate female identities and engage in sexual conversations with other men.

My friend does this as well, he has three accounts with 3 lvl70s on each. He doesn't pay for either of them...his "boyfriends" do. It's pretty hilarious to say the least. He even talks to them on vent, and by him...I mean his girlfriend.

LULZ!

People are pathetic and deserve to be used and abused.

Originally posted by Spooky1013

Originally posted by Scrogdog

Originally posted by Spooky1013

 

I have to disagree.

Do you have any idea how many times the world has been predicted to end in my life time? I'm 50 years old, BTW. :)

The problem with your model is the same problem with ALL models that attempt to predict the future, be it famine or global warming or what have you. The problem is that all models do is to carry the present in to the future. I can't think of a single instance where this proved to be a useful endeavor.

In 1960, a *scientist* by the name of Paul Erlich said, "The battle to feed humanity is over. In the 1970s the world will undergo famines - hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death". Did it happen? Nope. Why? Because technology that he had no hope of predicting outpaced his model.

In 1990, climate modelers estimated a world population of 11 billion by 2100. Today many scientists believe that the number will be closer to 7 billion.

Now, lets look at this in reverse. If people 100 years ago were to worry about where we'd be today, what do you think they'd worry about? Probably, where would the world get enough horses? And what would be done with all of the dung? :)

Horse pollution was a serious problem in 1900. But, what was logic THEN is not the logic of today, right?

In my opinion, such predictions based on flawed models are a complete waste of time. You are welcome to your opinion, of course, but the history of like events and predictions are not in your side in this matter. Far from it, in fact.

 

  [B]First of all, they were barely a decade or 2 out of practically the old west in 1900. That's an exaggeration but the scientists and the world were still very primitive then.[/B] They didn't have the time to accumulate knowledge and were just beginning to learn things. They couldn't conceive the world today, and our needs, our resource consumption. The reality is there won't be many more major technological leaps for at least another 30 to 40 years. There are always a few, but the ones made will most likely only make more hungry mouths to feed and not help supply energy or truely make the majority of our lives much easier. We may in fact have to sacrifice some of our comforts to make room for primitives sooner or later.

If suddenly cold fusion is achieved, livestock is genetically-engineered to grow full size in a matter of weeks and can be kept sustained themselves in a very cheap, efficient manner, and third-world nations stop popping out babies like bubblegum machines... as well as never placing too many energy demands themselves... I'll hand you a thousand bucks.

 Without an unrealistic leap in knowledge and the ability to apply it efficiently... eventually people in a hundred or two hundred, or however many more years will be kicking themselves and cursing us. I don't see it as very realistic that efficient energy use and practical and common renewable sources of energy as well as quickly raised and satisfying food sources will be discovered, created or whatever before we outgrow ourselves. Especially when many primitive countries are sitting on resources that could be used but for the fact that occupying or demanding in return for aid would cause too many other real nations to complain. If they were to industrialize, they'd behave the way China is.

My friend, you are making yourself look worse and worse with each post that you make.

Uh... ever hear of revolutionary guys by the name of... say... Newton? Or Keppler? These guys lived in the 1600s forget the 1900s. And they were among the most revolutionary and revered scientists of all time.

Primative? I'll wager both of them forgot more about science than you'll ever know.

But please continue to pretend that you have a science clue. It's good for a laugh if nothing more.

Well if you ask me, it's kind of like fraud.  A fraudulent person can't go to the courts with the defense of "Well, your honor - if they're stupid enough to fall for it..."

Still, it's not like there is some sort of legal contract going on between players.  I would think it's a little sad from a human perspective - Why would someone willingly take advantage of someone else like that?  It's one thing for a woman in real life to take advantage of a man, but a man expects nothing less from a woman.  Whatever happened to bros before ho's?  The guy code?

Anyone who would fall for something like that, is clearly not thinking things through, and their judgement is clouded.  Then again... it is only a game.

My response to this is - life isn't fair, but games are supposed to be.  I know I could never do something like this, so it blows my mind to think someone else could.  Luckily, I don't need internet relationships.  Luckily, I treat girl gamers the same as I do male gamers - I help everyone out that I can.

Originally posted by Spooky1013 

  I ran into some really rude chicks playing an old game, and once in a while there are some like you've described. I think that really was a chick, the chicks tend to be more blunt and display the sense of entitlement (the beechines) where after talking to some guys that have done it, the guys say they always work on people and try to say and act as they'd want someone to. They'd kinda feel a person out and figure the best things to say to 'um, and the right people to go for.

  Lol the guys tend to put a Lot of thought into it sometimes, but some chicks probably do as well. I met a guy on a game once who made tons of game money cybering people and they didn't even know it was a dude. It's childish but I laughed and said I wished I had the balls to do that lol. Not my thing though.

   The person you spoke about sounds like a young chick to me, possibly not even drinking age or just around there if. A lot of young women these days have a sense of entitlement and lack of remorse with that behavior, many I've met in real life seem to have been pampered too much lol. That's obviously not too good for the ego but being hot does letcha get away with some things I wreckon. I don't put up with that on or offline though.

 I'd made a chick character once myself, I had a good name I wanted to use and I figured it'd be an interesting social experiment since I was told by a lot of women that they were constantly harassed in groups by guys. I never said anything sexual or lead anyone on and I blocked sexual remarks, especially in personal tells, just had the same kinds of group chats I had on my male characters to pass the time time between pull and spawn waits and buffing and what not. If people had paid attention, which many actually did and I made a few good friends on the server so I built up the character, it could've been noticed easily by my personality that I was a guy. A couple of guys in one the first groups on that character that I remember offered their help with this & that & to show me things, give 'extras' of this and that and when I said I'm a dude poof they weren't free any more and suddenly became busy lol.

About your bottom paragraph, there are some clever people that manage to get away with it in real life mainly by sympathy-mooching I'll call it. After Katrina some dicks did that, acted homeless and poor, never asked for a single thing, it was all offered so it was legally considered gifts and there were no charges filed the last I knew. I learned about it on Montel, he had one of the duped families on as guests. Shitty thing there it's kinda ironic though when some people go to jail for minor things (like forgetting to pay tickets) and those people get to run around and mooch again if they're lucky. They even used their kids to invoke sympathy lol. That's very low.

 

 By the way I like helping newer players as well, that's the mentor in me I guess I like teaching things, it can sometimes make ya some pretty devoted friends especially if you wanna make or have made afresh character and level and quest with um for a while. Some of my best buds in that game I met on fresh characters

It's possible, hard to say.  The thing that makes me think she could have been a guy was that the avatar was rather tasteless.  Breast size at maximum, muscle and fat at minimum, iirc a randomized face and the leah haircut, with hair color not matching either her starter clothes or those she requested from me.  Of course if it was a guy who created the character for scamming, you'd expect him to spend more time on the avatar, so I guess it could go either way.

I'll certainly acknowledge that people get away with dishonest things.  I'm not sure which part of my post that was a reference to exactly, but I don't deny it at all.