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I consider myself quite savvy with the MMO lingo. In spite of that there is one thing which I would have trouble to explain if I was asked to. Yep, it's the term "sandbox game".

Over and over I see that particular word used on these boards and most often it is used as being the one thing that will save us from the current MMO boredom. Yet, because it is always described as different things, I get the impression that noone knows what it is.

Or actually I get the impression that we don't have a generally accepted defenition of the term "sandbox game".

This is what the allmighty wikipedia say:

"""
Sandbox mode

In a game with a sandbox mode, a player may turn off or ignore game objectives.^[8] This term is used to describe a mode or option in otherwise goal oriented games, and should be distinguished from open-ended games with no objectives such as Sim City^[8] and The Sims.

A sandbox-like structure of gameplay is featured prominently in the Grand Theft Auto franchise.^[8] These and other games with virtual environments that the player may explore are also known as open world games.^[9] Though Grand Theft Auto III popularized the open world design in 2001 with its 3D environment, earlier games such as Metroid (1986) had already explored the concept in 2D.

"""

The only example I can see of a characteristic that defines a sandbox is "games with virtual environments that the player may explore".

Talk about fuzzy! That can applied to almost any game except maybe linear shoot'em ups.

Another example of what I have seen is that a sandbox game shouldn't have quests.

Tbh I wouldn't wanna play a game without quests and for your information; EVE has quests too.

"But a sandbox game let's you interact with and change the world."

I am sorry but that is what gaming is about from the start.

I also fail to see the connection between character-skill based games and these so called sandbox games. The only thing that is true is that they are two separate things.

I am glad that I don't work as a developer because trying to get something cohorent out of these boards when it comes to what the playerbase wants in their game is hopeless.

Anyway, should we agree on a general definition or scrap the term all together?

I feel most people here on mmorpg.com have the same idea of what sandbox is, both the proponents and the people who don't care for them.

Forget the wiki

Originally posted by Draccan

I feel most people here on mmorpg.com have the same idea of what sandbox is, both the proponents and the people who don't care for them.

Forget the wiki

Then please enlighten me.

Originally posted by Caldicot

I am glad that I don't work as a developer because trying to get something cohorent out of these boards when it comes to what the playerbase wants in their game is hopeless.

That's the tricky part. Developers sometimes listen to the playerbase too much. If they plan a game out they should stick to their guns and go through development as they see fit. The only feedback worth listening to would be from beta testers concerning game mechanics, not personal moral opinion on each individual vision for the game.

Classic example is Ultima Online. EQ came out and the developers got spooked, add in some abrasive whining in the forums and they started messing with the core game mechanics and lore out of fear of subscription loss. Look where the game is now.

Sandbox games are those in where devs focused on giving players the tools to make content, instead of focusing on giving players the content built and already to be completed. Anyway, it's a thin line and both kind of games have "tools" and "quests", it's the focus devs have put into it what defines wich game is and wich is not.

Sandbox tools can be things like decorating systems, music systems, dance systems, buold cities, etc.

But I consider also a skill based char developing system as a sandbox system, because it is a tool you can use to develop you persona in the way you like it, instead of being encaged into a class. Talent system is like an "in-between".

All games have some sandbox systems, for example a dancing system, though this doesen't mean it's a sandbox style game.

Resuming, sandbox = tools

imho

To me sandbox is about choice.  Allow me to make the character I want and have an impact in the world.  It is not about quests or no quests, linear content or non-linear content, anyone that argues that a game is linear is in my opinion silly.  I have not played a single MMO that forced you to quest, or forced to go to only one area, every single one of them offers you choices, you can quest or not, you can go to this area or this area or this area...  You get the idea.

If you want quests they are there, if you want to make quests you can, if you want to build something you can...  It is all about choice.

But most important of all sandbox does not equal no content because of course then my choices are more limited.

Venge Sunsoar

I think the Wiki interpritation is a bit too vague.  It's speaking on the subject of Sandboxes not just in MMORPGs, but in all forms of video games.  And even so, a number of games in the MMO genre don't even fit these most vague of qualities.  They tend to get saddled with the term "Theme Park" or some variation there-in.

A "Theme Park" game, as I understand it, is something like a roller coaster.  It can be fun, it can be boring, but it tends to be predictable most of the time.  It's generally a game on rails, in so many words.  The players start out at a generally low level, then gradually gain in levels until they reach the highest level, and get the highest level of equipment.  Then, they can either deal with the endgame situations, make a new character, or just move on to another game.  The world is constant in these games, and the scenery and the monster populations, and at times the player attitudes, rarely take any sort of hit from the player presence.

I suppose, then, that an ideal Sandbox game would be the opposite of that.  A game world that the players can really have a say in.  Players can set fire to forests and scar the landscape, or launch attacks on player-run, player-built cities.  Overhunting of animals in a certain area can send that sort of animal fleeing from the area in fear of the wholesale slaughter.  Some players can do their best to protect the weak (newbs, crafters, merchants, or what have you) while other players are free to play the villains and attempt to conquer the land, or to generally be a douche.  Effectively a world in which player actions set the world into motion, for better or worse.

But then, that's just my two cents on the subject.

a sandbox is a game where you can do whatever you want, you are not forced to do a certain objective. its the difference between TH 1 and THUG. all the GTA's are sandboxes. oblivion is a sandbox, you can not bother doing quests and just go around killing eveyone, same as GTA. runescape, you can just go be a pacist and aspire to be a lumberjack and just go and chop wood and sell it. most mmos are sandboxes some alot more than others.

Originally posted by MMOmaker

Regardless of what is currently in the Wikipedia article, the term sandbox has a clearer meaning than you are saying even if not everyone understands it.

Keep in mind that anyone can edit Wikipedia articles to say anything they want. They may be "reverted" later, but you can't consider that definitive, especially if it is obviously vague.

I am a game developer. I am the lead game developer for Magic of the Gods^TM. I have paid a lot of attention to the term "sandbox" and how it is used because some of the meanings are exactly what we are trying to do with our game.

It is my understanding that the term "sandbox" comes from the idea of a child playing in a sandbox. There is virtually nothing pre-set about that. The child can form the sand into various shapes and imagine whatever he likes. Contrast that with a child playing with a toy fire engine. The sand can be reshaped into many things, deserts, oceans, mountains, castles, cities, etc. The fire engine is always a fire engine.

So it's an analogy. A game that allows more imagination and more options to the player is more "sandboxy" than one where the storyline is preset and unchangeable and the player has fewer options.

Since it is only an analogy, there is not just one game that is the archetype "sandbox" game. Some people think a game should have no quests to be a sandbox game because, of course, it is more like a sandbox to invent your own quests. But that doesn't mean a game that has quests can't also fairly be described as a sandbox type game if the nature of the quests or some other aspects of the game fit the sandbox analogy.

One person even said that unless the players can change EVERYTHING about the game, then it's not a sandbox game. Without a doubt, such a game would be a sandbox style game, but I don't think that's the only game that would fit the meaning of the word.

Lots of words have meanings that are open to interpretation. Consider the word "nice", for example, or "fair". The words still have meanings even though it is not always clear whether they accurately describe a particular person or thing.

If you want to see whether our game, Magic of the Gods^TM fits your idea of a sandbox game, check out our forum at www.onlinegamemaker.proboards82.com. You can play the game, too. It's already online even though it's not entirely finished. The forum explains how.

 

 

 

To take your analogy a step further, theres no reason there couldn't be a sandbox with a firetruck to play with too. Why not spoil the kid?

i have gotten over the misuse of the word sanbox.  i will however give anyone a dollar that can strike "fanboi' from the face of gaming language.   Most misused term in gaming history imo.

Originally posted by MMOmaker

Regardless of what is currently in the Wikipedia article, the term sandbox has a clearer meaning than you are saying even if not everyone understands it.

Keep in mind that anyone can edit Wikipedia articles to say anything they want. They may be "reverted" later, but you can't consider that definitive, especially if it is obviously vague.

I am a game developer. I am the lead game developer for Magic of the Gods^TM. I have paid a lot of attention to the term "sandbox" and how it is used because some of the meanings are exactly what we are trying to do with our game.

It is my understanding that the term "sandbox" comes from the idea of a child playing in a sandbox. There is virtually nothing pre-set about that. The child can form the sand into various shapes and imagine whatever he likes. Contrast that with a child playing with a toy fire engine. The sand can be reshaped into many things, deserts, oceans, mountains, castles, cities, etc. The fire engine is always a fire engine.

So it's an analogy. A game that allows more imagination and more options to the player is more "sandboxy" than one where the storyline is preset and unchangeable and the player has fewer options.

Since it is only an analogy, there is not just one game that is the archetype "sandbox" game. Some people think a game should have no quests to be a sandbox game because, of course, it is more like a sandbox to invent your own quests. But that doesn't mean a game that has quests can't also fairly be described as a sandbox type game if the nature of the quests or some other aspects of the game fit the sandbox analogy.

One person even said that unless the players can change EVERYTHING about the game, then it's not a sandbox game. Without a doubt, such a game would be a sandbox style game, but I don't think that's the only game that would fit the meaning of the word.

Lots of words have meanings that are open to interpretation. Consider the word "nice", for example, or "fair". The words still have meanings even though it is not always clear whether they accurately describe a particular person or thing.

If you want to see whether our game, Magic of the Gods^TM fits your idea of a sandbox game, check out our forum at www.onlinegamemaker.proboards82.com. You can play the game, too. It's already online even though it's not entirely finished. The forum explains how.

 

 

 

Good description. Essentially, a sandbox game is one in which the goal of the game can be achieved even if certain aspects of the game are totally ignored; progression is possible even if steps are skipped.

Originally posted by Rollotamasi

i have gotten over the misuse of the word sanbox.  i will however give anyone a dollar that can strike "fanboi' from the face of gaming language.   Most misused term in gaming history imo.

qfe

Sandbox means the developers leave the goals of the game for the players to decide.

They don't so much create a game as create a set of tools or an enviroment in which the players can make their own games. Perhaps proividing their own models as an example of what can be achieved.

Operation Flashpoint is a classic sandbox game. 

You can use the existing units, maps to make your own missions or even multip[layer games. You can create your own gametypes ranging from first person shooter, through simulator even to RTS. You may also create your own maps, units, graphics and sounds and add them into your game.

Your gameplay is limited by your toolset and your imagination only. A large part of the fun is derived from modelling and creating your own gameworld and activites.

Obviously on centralised servers, the ability for players to create their own gameworlds is very limited and highly impractical.

In terms of MMO's it is typically used to describe those games with lower levels of content than found in the current generation of games.

In these cases players don't so much create their own content, as find other things within the game world to do. Things that were never intended as activities by the games creators. A fancy dress competiton for example, or perhaps a guild war or organised lottery.

Sandbox used in an MMO's context, a game played on a controlled and regulated server that dictates the gamestate to all who log into, is used to describe a game with no or limited structured activites, hard coded into the game.

No quests just grind killing monsters for XP or loot? Sandbox.

No, themed wars or predefined factions in your PvP? Sandbox.

No, characters generated to team dynamics with mutually supportive roles? Sandbox.

Fans of these older games like to assert that the lack of content was deliberate and makes the game better than current market leaders, rather than recognise that market has evolved.

In the same way as football supporters will blindy declare their  favourite B league team in everyway superior to any A league team you care to mention, so it is with MMO's.

 Old defunct games are not old and defunct, as long as they are "sandbox".

My advice to you as a developer of an MMO is to avoid any connection with the word "sandbox" altogether. Massive multiplayer games run from a centrally controlled master control program.  It is not possible to provide a common denominator game that will attract large numbers to any one server if you are attempting to allow all the players as much individual input into the gameworld as they can imagine.

You need very tight rules and to have already imagined anything that the players may want to do and have programmed it into the game yourself. It's an enormous undertaking and I wish you every success with it.

 sandbox vs linear

linear: you follow a path, hare handguided, your future is scripted

sandbox: you are a  hero roaming the world freely

Originally posted by Teiman

 sandbox vs linear

 

linear: you follow a path, hare handguided, your future is scripted

sandbox: you are a  hero roaming the world freely

Therefore all MMOs are sandbox games.

With that said, we can stop crying about how we want a sandbox game because we already have several.

If it is a character-skill based game you want then say so. As I stated in my original post, skill based =! sandbox.

Another thing I noticed was when reading your replies one word came to mind and that word was freedom. We want freedom of movement, freedom of customising characters, freedom of how our characters can act and interact in the world, freedom of advancement path etc. Basically freedom of choice in general.

The thing is that even if it was possible to create a game without any limitations or constraints the system would be overly abused by griefers.

Maybe the trick for the developers is to create the illusion of freedom without removing the essential mechanics.

I do not believe that a sandbox alone and in the true form of the term will "save us from mmo boredom".  Indeed, I do not believe that a sandbox in its pure form can be a hit.  I firmly believe that the sandbox concept must be intertwined with linear mechanics to make a hybrid of the two systems.  e.g. WoW mixed with SWG pre-CU.  SWG pre-CU by itself is boring.  WoW by itself is boring.  SWG and WoW concepts mixed together would be spectacular.

Why?  Because I like complex crafting, I like player housing, and I like player cities.  I also like lots of pre-built content such as 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, and 40-player dungeons; anything from small group to raid (but raiding should never provide stat-enhancing gear that can't be found through other dungeons!).  Those dungeons were the primary factor missing from SWG and can be correlated to its lack of success.

To sum it up, I like to take up a profession, work my way through it, and eventually setup a shop and maintain the shop as well as manufacture goods.  AFTER I get done taking care of my daily routine and counting the muhlah I made the previous evening, I like to go on a few good dungeon runs and collect some phat loots, whether those be component loots or complete items.  I DO NOT LIKE DOING ONLY ONE OF THESE ACTIVITIES.  e.g. in wow I can only dungeon run.  In SWG pre-CU I can only run my shop.  I WANT BOTH!  That's the bottom line of the matter.  Until a game comes out that can satisfy both of these desires, and make a full blown mmo experience, then I simply will not be playing mmos.  It is as simple as that.

Another idea:

You can mix sandbox elements and linear elements.

Fallout is a example or a linear game that feel sandbox.

There are a few sandbox games, with strong linear content:  Morrowind, Oblivium, KOTOR, Mass Effect.

Seems that is posible to give the player freedoom (or the illusion of freedom) and a linear experience.

Anyway you can play Morrowind for 6 years, but I finished  Mass Effect in 2 days.  

I think Oblivion and Morrowind are great examples of what a Sandbox should be. But with that said, most MMOs are "sandbox", but this isnt entirely true, in Oblivion and Morrowind, you control the level of difficulty of monsters, no one monster is really that much stronger than another, and in MMOs they have "Zones" where you just cannot go there unless you get a certain level, why do they do this? So they make it easier for newer players to know what to do, sandboxs usually stick you in the middle of no where, and say "Go one, the world is yours.", and with a MMO it's "Dont go past that red line,  you just cant."

Posters here generally mean one of two things, and sometimes a combination of the two, when they say "sandbox":

1. Skills instead of classes. For some people, that's it.

2. Ability to change the game world.

3. Some combination of these two.

Games like GTA and Oblivion are NOT sandboxes, they are simply non-linear, which isn't the same thing.

Common in all MMO's possible goals are to be the most feared pvp'er, best guild leader, play with friends, excellent strategist, and other social type goals.  Another common goal is to see all the content.

So after that I imagine what makes a sandbox different than other MMO's is more possible goals.