More research required

i stopped reading at the "the NGE was 90% of the player's fault". The game was Not complete pre-cu, we didnt make the changes(NGE), and the game was Not an FPS pre-cu. Looks like your homework was fed to you by some fanboi or SOE themselves.

To the OP, you undermine your own post...I don't understand how you say SOE 'gave the whiners what they want'...yet the result was mass exodus after the NGE. Hmm so IF the whiners got what they wanted wouldn't they have stayed? Furthermore, IF infact the NGE wasn't a huge pile of garbage that completely changed the game so much that  it wasn't even the original game other than the environment and title then everyone would have praised it and stayed and still be playing....but the FACT is the game was broken...they attempted to fix it and destroyed it. Period, please do more research.

Also, if you think the 'problem' the whiners had with the game was with the Jedi...you obviously have no clue as to what the majority of the playerbase was whining about. Period, please do more research.

Now, let's just pretend for sake of arguement that the changes were made because of the playerbase 'whining'. You claim that they got what they asked for. Really? So you believe that the devs. completely listened to the 'whiners' and only put in the game what the 'whiners' wanted? Wow really can't do much with that claim,  other than repeat what I've already said. The FACT is the devs didn't listen way back in beta and didn't listen during pre-cu or for NGE..they just used it as an excuse to explain the changes...this can be documented...Period, please do more research.

Now for my final point, Fiascal? I have no idea what this is...my guess is you meant  fiasco...which by definition means: a complete failure. Please do more research.

Now given that definition then yes the NGE was a fiasco, as was your origianl post.

If you are having fun playing SWG, I truly am glad I can't take away that experience you are having...so in turn please don't try and explain my experience I had in SWG pre-cu/NGE you have no idea what went on. Even if you do the research and get your facts straight you still will never understand what truly happened.

Claji Kiher- Ahazi server

Lets say in your home city the populace has been asking for a professional football field to be constructed and a team formed. Your city says Okay , we will need  donations and it might happen. Populace pays the dividend , Construction begins on a dome. Opening day comes and just about every citizen heads out to the stadium to watch the first game . On arrival everything looks normal outside of a few oddities in plain view. However upon entering the stadium they realize they were given a futball field , Not a football field.

NGE was a game , It just wasn't the game we paid or asked for.

Originally posted by tvalentine

i stopped reading at the "the NGE was 90% of the player's fault". The game was Not complete pre-cu, we didnt make the changes(NGE), and the game was Not an FPS pre-cu. Looks like your homework was fed to you by some fanboi or SOE themselves.

Anyone who blames the NGE on the actual players who were playing SWG at the time should be shot.

Originally posted by Wizardry

Originally posted by xephonics

what is a fiascal?

 

I believe it is a bottled beverage that when opened a little hand pops out and slaps you a much needed one.If one isn't enough it comes in 6/12 and now they got specials when buying a case of 24.enjoy,open as many bottles as you need.

 Sounds as If your a frequent buyer.

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Battleskar

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by abbaba

The NGE had little to do with the admittedly poor Jedi system that was already in place, nothing to see here, move along.

 

The NGE was about SOE/LA's pathetic attempt to make the game appeal to the same people that played WoW. See Nancy "Kill, Loot, Repeat" MacIntyre, see the obliteration of 2/3 of the game's classes, see the total neutering crafting got.

In addition to this poor design decision, The NGE was terribly implemented. Bugs, broken professions, the terrible FPS system.../puke. The devs as much as admitted that the NGE was something they threw together in a month or two.

 

Well it seems like they wanted to slim down the proffesion count as well.

32 combinations makes for a lot of thing to look after(balance/exploits/etc).

The thing that stands out to me is that the folks who did enjoy SWG seemed to like the total SIMS in Space theme....while everyone else was looking for a SW "game" with meat. They saw no reason a game should be focused around entertainers...the original SW trilogy sure wasnt.

Even ole Jar Jar would of said to Koster..."Whasa yousa tinkin?". Why didnt he give us fans a game? We got a SIM ,that was so fudged, they couldnt make time to add content.

I think the NGE would of gone a lot better had they not introed the FPS part...but alas they did. The classes could of been made up for in specialty trees.

Gave the game a shot twice....Pre-NGE and NGE.

All I can say is NO THANKS...if I want the sims or Bennie Hill, I will look to purchase the originals. Not some cheap imitation.

32 Professions are not that bad to keep up with there are many games with similar choices. Now SWG Pre-Cu had 32 professions not all of them were just Combat so the idea that it was too much to look after is Absurd.
 

 

Really? Where are they?

 

WoW/EQ/EQ2/LoTRO/CoH/Vanguard ,just to name a few, remained below 20. Tradeskills were a secondary function.

 

Unsure how many DAoC had with the 3 realms...but bits/pieces of the "unique" classes were basically the same thing IIRC.

 

There should of been about 10 combat classes at launch, a few trades, and NO basing the game around entertainers. Sure it creates interaction(provided the ents arent macroed...which a lot were)...but it is also forced linear progression to the max.

 

For being a 'sand-box', you sure were forced to go thru the lines...instead of just being able to pick up and do what ya wanted to.

 

Not all folks who played pre-nge think it was a good game...myself included. SOE snagged 30 bucks from me I wouldnt mind having back. Heck the flaming pile known as MxO was better AFAIAC.

 

Spare me the kool-aid thx.

Ralph made a simulation...not a game the masses would enjoy. That is why SWG never surpassed EQ in subscription numbers. Had Ralph made it EQ in space, SWG would of had at least double the subs as EQ IMO.

Bit of a tangent here, but an interesting one for me.  Actually CoH/CoV has now an almost inumerable number of "professions" or types of hero or villains that you can build.  This for me is one of its real strengths.  I always liked character customization in the original SWG.
 

They have 5-7 archtypes on each side (including unlocks), but within each archtype you can choose from 6 or 8 different primary power sets, and then 6 or 8 different secondary power sets.  Then you can choose from up to 4 additional power sets from the general pool, and then you can choose an epic powerset.

The combinations become even more diverse when you realize that within all of these powersets you have 9 tiers of actual powers to choose from.  Then you choose how to slot these powers, and then you decide which enhancement sets you want to craft, purchase and/or loot to fill the slots.

To make this more practical, you can have a scrapper (melee class) that has martial arts powers and powers to evade, along with extra speed, weapons epics, stealth and teleportation for kicks.

Or, if you want to stick with a scrapper (melee class) you can opt for dual blades instead of martial arts, self regeneration and healing instead of evade, flight, accuracy epics and leadership buff powers just for kicks.

These variations make up their own type of profession.  For short form people refer mainly to the primary and secondary power pools you've chosen to draw from.  I have a "katana/regen scrapper" for instance.  With all of the combinations though you can have 36 different kinds of scrappers alone.  Then 36 different kinds of blasters, controllers, healers, tanks etc..

I really enjoy that.

Can this be balanced?  They seem to do a good job of it.  They tinker from time to time, but usually don't do anything earth-shattering.  E.G. I think the casting time of one of my powers went down by .2 seconds recently, and one of the defensive powers used to have a magnitude of 10, but now has a magnitude of 8. 

Basically every set has strengths and weaknesses.  Certain sets are good for team play, others work fine solo.  Missions and task forces are available to suit all of the builds in that the builds are all constructed within certain parameters that fit the game design.  In pvp, essentially anything you do to me, I can find a way to counter.  Everything I do to you, you can find a way to counter.  This may involve adjusting your powers through respecs, changing your slots, or changing your enhancements.  You may need to craft yourself temporary buffs or just take short term buff inspirations. 

What SOE could never seem to get right was the solo/group option.  They always seemed to deal with this as an either/or proposition.  Not so in CoH/CoV, both styles of play have been provided for in parallel.

SOE also seemed to mess up regarding specific powers that were not defensible against (e.g. the mind pool attack).  CoH/CoV has nothing like this either.

SOE then seemed to think that they had to provide specific quests for each and every profession.  None of the people I played with expected this.  In-game content never needs to be that specific in my experience.  None of the task forces in CoH cater to a specific profession.  Instead they find ways to provide entertainment for all of the professions at the same time.

So, can you have multiple professions?  Well if you're not SOE, the answer seems to be yes.  Can they all have ingame content?  Again, if you're not SOE, the answer seems to be yes.  Can you have numerous professions without giving one or two of them a kill button, again, if you're not SOE, it seems that you can.

As this relates to the O.P..  You see even with the valid balance issues that were raised by players (e.g. mind wounds) it was never necessary to completely gut the game and rush out broken revamps on two occasions.  No, even multiple professions can work if you know what you're doing.  Therein lies the real issue.  SOE never got its act together, and their attempted solutions to the problems they created only made things go from bad to worse.

OP_I disagree.  The player base mainly wanted a fixed game and "Star Wars" content. The game was released broken and so was the NGE.  I am so sick of these threads on the NGE and what SOE did but I think customers\consumers still have the right to be aware of what happened. SOE  could have improved the game and the player base with SOLID CONTENT and the player integrity like CCP has done. I will say that Dead Meat did a good job of fixing the frak ups of the NGE but still missed the targeting issues in the game. Anyways - I love you all.

Originally posted by Wizardry

I would lay blame on the player base ,so much so i would say they can take blame for 90% of there complaints and look at there brethren who caused the later fiascal.

I don't even need to read the rest of your post to know that you are wrong about every single point you make. The players didn't create the NGE...SOE did. It really is as simple as that.

 Let me get this off my chest, i know some may find it offensive but here goes.
FOCK Jedi i never desired it never complained about it and never tried to be one.
I was just having to much fun on the path of a Creature Handler/Ranger.
So don't lump me a, former player, in with the Jedi wanna bes.
 In fact after seeing all the movies there were only 2 great Jedi's
Obi Wan and Yoda the rest were weak.
I found Han and Chewie/Smugglers to be far greater in every way. Excluding Obi Wan
 That being said i will have to disagree about your reasoning as to why they lost subs which are several, like the bugs,poor customer service,no added content,constant tweaking of proffesions, nerf this nerf that,they lost subs because they lacked a single cohesive vision for this game.
And as stated by Jeff Freeman the players never entered into the equation.
 They lost subs because they generally suck when it comes to keeping the player base they had happy.
 Not to mention being jerked around by LA.
 Another thread blaming the players for mismanagement nice. And after 3 years where does the game stand now? with barely 20k subs hmm seems everyone did not want to be a Jedi or they would play this game now no?
 This theory fails.

Originally posted by Wizardry

It took a very long time but after years of constant whining and my long time experience with a player base in many games i decided to do some homework.

The funny thing about Soe and there SWG game was that most agreed it was a very complete game,with expansive skill trees ,some decent updates and a battle system that played like a FPS.There players were decent looking as was the game world.The game world was also a decent size,really the game was quite complete.It had a skill system many species and professions.A dynamic player economy,ground vehicles as well as the space vehicles of course.They have added player housing along the way.In reality ,when you look at the depth of game play and design of the game it is quite good even for a non SWG fan.

Now the meat of the debate.

After unveiling what really went on and not dwelling solely on the NGE part ,it was as i pretty much thought it was.I would lay blame on the player base ,so much so i would say they can take blame for 90% of there complaints and look at there brethren who caused the later fiascal.

Even after smedley,who btw was by no means in this alone,offered up apologies i found them more as saving face and trying to mend the problems without laying blame as i am doing.After all i have nothing to lose,i can say whatever i feel is the truth and not something the player base wants to hear nor do i need to suck up to my directors or shareholders.

The whole fiascal ,for those who do not know is ALL about the JEDI class.This class was suppose to be the best class in the game,so no wonder SOE or perhaps verant as well made it a difficult class to unlock.Now here is where the player base is to blame.You see in my books and anyone with a sense of maturity knows full well you can NOT have your cake and eat it too.What ensued after the next few months was MANY players complaining the profession was TOO hard to unlock.SOE and there board pretty much acknowledged that they were losing subs because of the disgruntled players.

So like a good little SOE they decide to make changes removing the 3 death penalty system and just removing skill points.I think that is a kind of fair response by SOE in being you are gettign the elite class you should take care of it and not be allowed to use it like a noob.In essence there SHOULD be some kind of drawback for having the best profession in game,more so than just the time it takes to unlock it.Guess what happens?MOre subs are lost and more are STILL complaining..geesh it seems the whole player base wants the jedi class and easily handed to them like some item mall purchase.That is the two faced syndrome that ensued this long standing fiascal.This is why i said you can NOT have your whining then get your own way and continue to whine,,very lame in my books.

Guess what happens next?SOE once again bows to pressure because of still losing subs and makes the  profession with just a series of quests to unlock it.I mean this pretty much shows they dumbed the game down totally and made the profession nothing desireable or earned or even rare and why? because they cried for it .This is called the NGE New Game enhancements.Soe basically made the game a LOT easier and of course allowed the jedi as a starting profession.

You see even after SOE did everything they could to please the constant whining about the jedi class,they were still losing subs.This is why there whole board decided that the game needed to be simplified as the player base was NOT backing up what they asked for.If the player base had begged for all the changes and showed there support through subs SOE would not have been given the impression the game was dying and needed change.At the time BEFORE the NGE they were steadily losing subs,that is NOT a player base showing support for what they asked for,that is a player base that is just like ALL other games very divided and caused there own demise.Just like other games you get a % that want everything simple and solo,they want to be able to get end game level in 2 weeks,where on the other hand just like the PRE NGE,you have another % that wants a challenge and continued depth in the game.

I have seen the exact same changes take forth in FFXI/VANGUARD and EQ2.the player base are the ones who are causing it,as they are calling out the games as being HARDCORE[how many times we heard this?]SO what do you expect the developer to do?It really appears very obvious that there hands are tied and could NEVER please there entire player base.This couldn't be any more obvious as with the SWG game.Before the changes you had happy challenged oriented players but the others were crying hardcore.Please them then you step on the toes of the hardcore,neither SOE or anyone could possibly fix a divided player base.I might add the combat upgrade was not at fault either as most just couldn't accept change at first but soon the subs recovered to normal after they acted mature and accepted some change to a great game.

IMO it is very sad to realize,this game would have flourished if they just made it a very simplified structure from the beginning[AKA WOW] that way they wouldn't need to make changes for the babies that claim challenge=hardcore.This won't be the last game to go through this that is for sure.

To sum up the whole fiascal i would say the average SWG fanbois was spoiled.They had one hell of a game,i think even the non fanbois would agree to that,i know i am sold as to the over all design of the game.Just because of the NGE they chose to forget the rest of the game witch was areguably among the best out there.I think that is a fact is it not ,shown by the passion old pre NGE fans have shown?You should not criticsize SOE for they made a great game. If you want professions/unlocking dumbed down made easier,you better be full aware of the fact the game will need some structure changes to coincide.I am sure it was never designed to be like horizons,where every single player is a dragon or in this case a jedi.This game was forever evolving even with there added instances and player housing,any sensible person realizes change to a game after it evolves over time.

7/10 you did manage to get a few flames but really kinda phoned in the sarcasm. also spellcheck..do you use it?

I'm waiting to see if the OP has enough journalistic integrity to acknowledge things like:

the NGE was developed based on input from non-players,

the jedi profession was poorly done because it was rushed into implementation within a two week period, after release,

the CU actually scrapped player input and collaboration and went with a "copy WoW" approach, that was the result of a top-down, management decision.

All of these points effectively refute his thesis that player complaining caused the horrifying implementation of the NGE.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

I'm waiting to see if the OP has enough journalistic integrity to acknowledge things like:

Considering the thread was intended to troll the forum, you're going to be disappointed.

Originally posted by xephonics

what is a fiascal?

A fiscal fiasco.  Basically it's what the NGE was.  SOE's fiscal years haven't been as profitable since the NGE.

---

Originally posted by Dkevlar

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Originally posted by Fishermage

I would suggest doing a good deal more homework, until you get it right.

---

 
he doesnt really need it. He could calibrate the factology, but he is, in general, right. What he should have said/wrote tho was something close to "while i am blaming  the player base the guilt is not directed at  YOU, that after more then 3 years still bleed for losing your game". that would make a lot of difference.
I beta tested SWG. During that time i  found and gave feedback of more than 300 bugs.Some little bugs, some anoying bugs, some ugly bugs, but only a few game stopping bugs. Truth be told SOE didnt fixed most of them and rushed the game out but....there were not de facto that many real game breaking bugs.  also i'm not saying the dev team was autist . they just had so many interdependant systems and mechanics in the game that by fixing one they ended up affecting others.
the game did in fact tried to please ...all i would say. It gave the players : ranged combat, melee combat, crafting, social interaction, various degrees of character development, action for the action oriented minded, roleplaying for the rpg oriented players, pve, pvp, factions, player cities, character individuality in almost infinite aspects, not only by the skills but appeareance ; we had players in armor or in suits, in shorts, in sandals and boots,  barefooted, using guns , hammers, rifles, flamethrowers, instruments, having pets, with no petsm an achievement system  that basicly had- at first- no impact on the game but allowed others to see that the characters had "been around" ...
list is to big to even make.  Almost anything that a person can think about being possible in a game WAS in the game.
the game also gave the chance of playing "regular" characters or a "alpha" class.  And in may aspects make that in the way it should. Was hard to reach it at first. even misterious and included harsh penalties. Again as it should be. It is the uncle ben  parker metaphore "with great power comes great responsability". And unlike the urban mythos that the game didnt had a way to unlock a jedi since early start . Not saying it had since the release ...but it is also a void point because not only the player was not supposed to start the game and become a jedi in the next week, but also because the first times were of game consolidation and "in game" development of social networks and economy.
But the system was there . it was tweaked so much that for 2 times, not one but 2, they messed up and we had a "visible force sensitivity bar", and players saw what it change it... tipping , doing quest, exploring ,,, and probably there were more aspects but they hotfixed it- nevertheless some time after, it was visible again because i guess they were still changing the system.
But they suffer from pair pression. LA wanted to see a jedi, players wanted to see a jedi, the media wanted to see a jedi. So they implemented a dumbed (yet time consuming ) unlock system - the holo+prof grind- that was developed and coded in about 2 weeks. 
and they were , in a way, betrayed by the players, the also betrayed themselfs. They had made this "wonderful sandbox virtual world" were the player could be exactly what we wanted. If the player dream was to be a master of unarmed fighting techniques and of 1 hand sword fighting, then we should be a TKA/fencer, because that was his "dream", not become one to stack defensive bonuses. the skill based system was there so th eplayer had the possiblilty of be what he would like to be, not to mix -max the over powered  flavor of the month template. 
and that human characteristic ruined the game. Instead of just fixing the game adding content, forced the developers to come with ways to keeping some degreee of balance. people stacked defenses, so they changed the way defenses stacked, they become  weapon class dependant,  working when the player used a ranged or melee weapon, but players rapidly went ahead and combined things like pistoleer/carbineer and rifleman,  or fencer/tka/swordsman. new fix, now defenses only worked and holding a 1 hand or 2 hands weapon. that was not enough since people started to bypass it by combining pistoleer and fencer, rifleman and swordman.. the time that the dev team passed creating ways to balance , the players passed bypassing those same corrections. 
Naive i Know. the history of mankind shows that the masses are always ready to alienate their dreams for whatever is valious, and the broadest denominator to be power (and mostly power= wealth). In a religious sense , to exchange  their soul for a chance of being the king of the hill, or in SWG terminology , the big man on campus. Any way we cant solely blame the devs . There is a long line of famous personalities trough times that tried to promote equalitarism... from Jesus to Karl Marx. They all failed so makes sense some guys making a game would also fail. No news there, so lets move along...
oh wait.. we can't. Because that analogy can be broaded up . the professin grind. Joe has always been a smugler since day 1, until the day joe knows that he can be a jedi if he gets a holocrom and/or master some professions, so he starts mastering them. Now paul and Kurt normally would resort to joe to slice their weapons, They go to joe but , alas , joe is a doctor now... ok. so next day kurt and paul ask Joe to buff them, but joe is a entertainer now, next day a weaponsmith, then a armosmith, next week a chef, and even a bounty hunter, complaining why he can't master it just by killing or crafting stuff with a macro instead of  taking this dumb missions that force him to launch droids ....
Because there were hundreds of joe's, the servers economy almost crash, it is not apparent, at first there is this boom, since we have players equiping themselfs at alarming rate in diferent ways, according to the professions they try to master.  because everyone changes profession so fast, most of the times they never really produce anything. taking my example, Joe was a good smuggler, but a bad weaponsmith or armorsmith- he just wanted to master the thing, not PLAY IT. 
A sick consequence is that all this profession swapping starts to affect the the social interdependencies of the game. Paul and Kurt normally talked to joe a lot, but now all of them just grind professions... sometimes they are even sleeping and their macros working...  this triangule can be multiplied by hundreds.  at the same time the devs did not wanted an a spontaneous army of jedis, so they increase the number of professions mastered... kind of " DAMN, if he put the reqs really high, maybe half of them goes back to whatever they liked"... result;: people start to master things faster and faster... in the players mind....hell why have holocroms... just master everything and I'll have my jedi slot . 
at that point people start to actually quit. Many times we forget that large amount of players quited before the CU, because the game had become a void profession grind. People complain, they get this ideia of aurelia and some quest that allow you to be jedi without much need of profession mastering... like "hey you can get there in the way you want by trading exp "  .... it takes some time... probably from all the systems was the best in the sense it was clear to the players and they could have some "fun" playing the game they way they preffered....
while all of this was happening, we had player complaints. it was to hard, to complex, take to much time, there was no balance, it lacked content, crafter were making a fortune, then combat professions were making a fortune,  then was decay, then jedi were uber, then jedis were not uber, then the secluded grind destroyed the player interaction, then jedi shouldnt be massified, lightsaber tef and visibility, permadeath, bounty hunter missions, the force ranking system, exp loss, the aurelian grind, macro'ed combat. "bosses " not dropping lot, med buffs, no buffs, ... people complained about everything and anything, and left..
... surprised they simplified everything and put what was left at  1 click a way (nge)?
and yes,  I do know that not all players fit in this analysis. But the problem is, a vast majority of them do.  The guy that liked his pet and loved to be a creature handler doesnt, myself that despite starting the game on 26 june 2003 only mastered markmans, scout, brawler, pistoleer and Bounty hunter, and even today never played a jedi also dont' fit, and you , yes, you that post here, and want your game back, probably also don't fit... but guess what, from those 250 K that quited, maybe only 20% actually gives themselfs to the trouble of posting about the game...  
I can anticipate someone telling me "was not really like that "-and then they try to explain me whatever happend based on their vision . I get that a lot. I normally smile. The difference between me and those people is that i hold 2 masters in History and they normally don't. I actually published some works and they dont.  And also have a  license that allows me to teach history.
Despite what many think, history is not supposed to be shaped by the general public. people like me actually passed 4 to 5 years studying things like theory of history, historiography, metodology, learning how to get distance from the events and learning how to reduce our own personal feelings or views about a subject .  And , when facing a complex reality, to isolate an aspect and actually develop  over it. that is what i did here. 
That is what the OP did also- not sure if it was his clear intention but that was what he did.And as someone that actually lectured history at universitary level, if I asked a written report about SWG, I would probably give the OP a decent grade. Because he isolated a problem, and formulated a explanation based on it. he just did not got the factology right.
Now , having said that, fisher, now you can tell me i'm being arrogant or having a prejudice. last week i was not, and think you kind of understood that after some , actually for me interesting, talk.  On this i do accept. it is a common trace to people with my formation, not only common but even to a point needed. like an olimpic contender that wants to be the best and win a medal , a history researcher needs that ideia of being better (not as a person, rather a "professional" of his field)  at giving an explanation  than the other, or else there is no need to review historical  knowledge, that is per si subjective and to a point relative - unlike other forms of knowledge, most of them of mathematical or exact natures.
the history of SWG and it's fall is to be honest full of twists, silences and shadows. But believe me, If i had to write a book about it, the jedi implementation, manegement and the thirst of players for it would be a pyvotal or central axis of the downfall. Mostl because it involved everything that was bad with the game and multiplied it many times. It become the "black hole" of SWG.

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The only trouble is, we now know, because it has been admitted by Jeff Freeman and Dan Rubenfeld, that the changes that killed the game, namely the CUNGE, specifically ignored the playerbase, and management based their decisions on outside focus groups. the platers were specifically, willfully, and intentionally ignored.

All ther rest you bring up merely highlights the bad managament of the game pre-CU.

One must design and manage a game understanding human nature; if that fails, that is the designer and manager's failure, not the failure of human nature.

The bad implementation of Jedi was certainly a part of that, but that's not what I was implying when I said he needs to do his homework. What I meant was his blaming humans for being humans; customers for being customers.

That's a GIVEN, not a reason for anything in any post mortem analysis. If one is a manager of SWG, one must say "GIVEN that customers are smarter than we are, and will strive to 'beat the game,' what decisions need to be made knowing this?" How can we design a game that WE and people smarter than us can't turn into a nightmare?"

They failed at that, and that was completely their fault. They messed up in a way that no techical provider should ever mess up -- they underestimated their customer. That was mostly due to bad managament -- whether it was management of the original design, or the ongoing management of the game.

That is why the OP needs to do more homework. He is looking at a symptom, and not a cause.

Originally posted by Wizardry

Originally posted by Esquire1980

Unlocking Jedi via quests was not included in the NGE.  One click jedi was included in the NGE.  "Chose your profession".   You have a boat load of "facts" wrong.  Read the NGE devs blog, and see exactly why the NGE was implimented.

The player base was, and always has been, the last thing on $OEs mind when it came, or comes, to CHANGES.  The player base was and IS always expendable.  $OE couldn't care less about it's playerbase or what they have to say.  THEN, or, NOW.

That is exactly what i said or meant to say[don't feel like reading my post over again],yes i know it was not brought about in NGE.That was the whole point,many players were pissed at the longevity and hassle of unlocking JEDI,that is why SOE chose to start pleasing a lot of the whiners or the ones who wanted things easier.

Unlocking jedi via quests was the first step after the initial one whereby many were still not happy.They wanted it the easy route and SOE must have decided those players were of a majority more so than the others.Even so the ones that spent a lot of hard work unlocking JEDi,shouldn't be whining because like i also said it was a ploy to keep the casual players happy.The hardcore already had there jedi and now the others can have it too,i would say that was a no brainer for SOE.

I am sorry but the player base is exactly why they made the changes ,i have seen this also in other games ...Vanguard/EQ1/2 to witch i played them all.To say they don't care about there playerbase,ya that's why they are offering free 2 months game play?lol your just shooting off typical SOE hate.SOE has made TONS and i mean TONS of changes in there games and it was all about the player base.Players need to get off there hi horse and maybe pay attention to the chat channels where you will see easily the amount of players that ask for changes.If a player base starts to dwindle,then you can also bet the developer be it SOE or ANYONE,will contemplate making changes,that is my friends again a no brainer.No developer on earth is going to sit passive and allow there player base to dwindle without doing something,even if it means pissing off some of its subs.

Like i also said,it is quite possible there decision was the right one.It was the constant hate and forum flaming,bashing that didn't allow the changes to have a FAIR chance at regaining subs.Instead the flamers chose to whine,criticize and cancel there subs,in the meantime also trying there best to make sure others don't enjoy the game or create new subscriptions.This was what i gathered from the whole fiascal,that some of the player base ruined the whole game atmosphere for all,they didn't care if some of the players enjoyed the changes,they were thinking ONLY of themselves.

I play EQ2 now i can honestly say a  lot of the changes i don't agree with,actually pretty much everyone of them,but i enjoy the core of the game.Heck even the EQ2 community is as bad as WOW's now ,i mean /2 channel chat is 10 year old syndrome all over  again,but i get past all of that and pick out the positives and try to enjoy.I saw the ranger class and samurai class get totally nerfed in FFXI,but instead of stomping around like a little kid and crying about it,i again picked out the positives of the game and tried to enjoy it,others need to follow the same route and they won't get so pissed off the next time a change is made in a game.

Clearly you didnt do enough reasearch. The only complaints back then were about jedi. other then that the main discussion on the forums was about bugs . Just so that you know the Devs didnt realy pay attention to the players back then so that throws your theory off. Up til the NGE they used test groups. They chose 100 players from the Austin area and payed them $100 each and showed them their ideas to get their opinions. That was SOE's fault not the playerbases. You give someone money they are going to agree with you out of fear you might take that money back.

Now , having said that, fisher, now you can tell me i'm being arrogant or having a prejudice. last week i was not, and think you kind of understood that after some , actually for me interesting, talk.  On this i do accept. it is a common trace to people with my formation, not only common but even to a point needed. like an olimpic contender that wants to be the best and win a medal , a history researcher needs that ideia of being better (not as a person, rather a "professional" of his field)  at giving an explanation  than the other, or else there is no need to review historical  knowledge, that is per si subjective and to a point relative - unlike other forms of knowledge, most of them of mathematical or exact natures.

the history of SWG and it's fall is to be honest full of twists, silences and shadows. But believe me, If i had to write a book about it, the jedi implementation, manegement and the thirst of players for it would be a pyvotal or central axis of the downfall. Mostl because it involved everything that was bad with the game and multiplied it many times. It become the "black hole" of SWG.

I have not read all of the post in this topic but this one I needed to comment on.

While I agree whit what you say on one hand I disagree  with you on the other.

But it was not the way jedi was implemented that caused the down fall .

When it was first discovered that you could become a jedi by grinding profestions it had very little effect.

Because the only way to get a holocron was by farming night sisters which took a whole group to do and it was a rare loot drop , if they were ever sold they sold for 5million or more credits .

Most people said screw that I either wont pay or caint pay and will be happy being what I made my toon to be or I will slowy try and find some in a group.

This would have lead to jedi being a class few ever got or tried to be . Because of money and time restraints.

I and Vets who rember and were there can pin point the exact time period when the game took its great plunge into what it is now.

The Christmas gift of a free HOLOCRON for every toon you had... yes thats right they gave every toon you had a free HOLOCRON. Now any one and every one got a holo to start you on your way to grinding out your jedi.

But they went a step furtuer into screwing things up the told us ahead of time they were going to do it for 1 .

Also they let us cross sever trade with each other . Before I had even been given my 1 free one I had made toons on every other sever and proceded to make trades for them when we got them .

I had so many it was pathertic and so did every one else .  I even gave some away as tips to dancers I had so many .

That is what lead to the grind that you spoke of in your post  and that was what started the downfall of SWG.

Originally posted by bearcat

Now , having said that, fisher, now you can tell me i'm being arrogant or having a prejudice. last week i was not, and think you kind of understood that after some , actually for me interesting, talk.  On this i do accept. it is a common trace to people with my formation, not only common but even to a point needed. like an olimpic contender that wants to be the best and win a medal , a history researcher needs that ideia of being better (not as a person, rather a "professional" of his field)  at giving an explanation  than the other, or else there is no need to review historical  knowledge, that is per si subjective and to a point relative - unlike other forms of knowledge, most of them of mathematical or exact natures.

the history of SWG and it's fall is to be honest full of twists, silences and shadows. But believe me, If i had to write a book about it, the jedi implementation, manegement and the thirst of players for it would be a pyvotal or central axis of the downfall. Mostl because it involved everything that was bad with the game and multiplied it many times. It become the "black hole" of SWG.

 

 

I have not read all of the post in this topic but this one I needed to comment on.

While I agree whit what you say on one hand I disagree  with you on the other.

But it was not the way jedi was implemented that caused the down fall .

When it was first discovered that you could become a jedi by grinding profestions it had very little effect.

Because the only way to get a holocron was by farming night sisters which took a whole group to do and it was a rare loot drop , if they were ever sold they sold for 5million or more credits .

Most people said screw that I either wont pay or caint pay and will be happy being what I made my toon to be or I will slowy try and find some in a group.

This would have lead to jedi being a class few ever got or tried to be . Because of money and time restraints.

I and Vets who rember and were there can pin point the exact time period when the game took its great plunge into what it is now.

The Christmas gift of a free HOLOCRON for every toon you had... yes thats right they gave every toon you had a free HOLOCRON. Now any one and every one got a holo to start you on your way to grinding out your jedi.

But they went a step furtuer into screwing things up the told us ahead of time they were going to do it for 1 .

Also they let us cross sever trade with each other . Before I had even been given my 1 free one I had made toons on every other sever and proceded to make trades for them when we got them .

I had so many it was pathertic and so did every one else .  I even gave some away as tips to dancers I had so many .

That is what lead to the grind that you spoke of in your post  and that was what started the downfall of SWG.

If you look at the history of the game you can see one desperate gimmick after another, designed to attract or retain subscribers.  SOE seems to have this bizarre mentality that the right gimmick aimed at the right audience is going to make them rich--never mind an entertainment service that actually works, dealing honestly with their consumers, or providing excellent customer support.  No, they need 9 iconic professions (just like WoW) or aim and shoot (just like Battlefront).  Those were successful weren't they?  So if we frankenstein them together it's sure to be a success right?  Oh, that didn't work, well trading cards are popular right now aren't they...
 

True but I was jsut pointing out what in my opion started the whole thing going down hill.

I rember ther were very few peps trying to become jedi before we got those holo's then afterwards every one wanted to be one .

mainly because it became accesable to every one because the holos were every where by then.

@ OP, you have no clue, get your facts straight 1st, then try to troll around.