Star Wars Galaxies

Originally posted by Rhoklaw

Well, like someone already said, actually I think it was you, SOE isn't the only company to do this and it's been around for ages.

In fact, 99% of infomercials are viral marketing and I see enough of those every day to make me puke. If this thread was advertised for $19.95, I'd question whether or not it was a viral marketing attempt.

Saying everyone else does it, and that this thread itself is also possibly suspect seems like another kind of rationalization for viral marketting, which you again seem to be defending, if it's done by SOE.

There's a name for this specific kind of rationalizing too, if you're interested; it's called projection.  If you want to read up on it, you can do that in the following link.  Just an option mind you; it's really your call:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection#Consciously_recognising_one.E2.80.99s_own_traits_in_someone_else

You also asked how Blizzard is nice to people in one of your posts.  Here's a link that compares their customer service to SOE's:  http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/190067

I've played 3 MMO's (well 4 if you consider CoH and CoV two games).  In the thread I just copied here, I compare my experience in all 3, as an actual consumer. 

You say also that Blizzard doesn't have to resort to viral marketting because they're sitting on a cash cow.  I would argue that no one "has to" resort to viral marketting.  If you have a good product, and if you treat people with respect, your service will sell itself.  You just honestly need to let people know of its existence.  You certainly don't need to con people into giving you their money.

If Blizzard has a "cash cow" it's because they took the time to build it right, and to deal with their customers honestly and respectfully.  This has paid off for them.  SOE appears to have invested in viral marketting instead of excellence in quality and customer service.  Blizzard has been understandably successful; SOE has not.  The execs at SOE seem to be the only ones who don't understand how this works.  Well maybe them and their lawyers, and their viral marketters.

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Rhoklaw

I'm not really defending viral marketing, just saying theres a bigger picture involved with this discussion. We don't live in a perfect world, so all I'm saying is, I don't see a whole lot of discussion of ANTI gold selling / powerleveling / item selling businesses, so why pick on SOE?

SOE is a bad boy, I agree.

Theres just more to it than what your thread discusses.

 

  But there really isn't.

  You see, powerleveling, gold selling....these are problems brought to us (the consumer, and fan) by outside parties that operate AGAINST the company.  The company isn't trying to treat us bad, someone else is just trying to profit off them in a negative way.  In THIS situation...the negative element is being brought to us directly by the company itself.  It is an immediate blanket of lies and lack of personal faith in their work.  Viral Marketing is essentially selling a lie to your fan, and spitting in his face in regard to his own right to hear a fair testimony.

  This discussion is centered primarily on viral marketing.  It does not delve into those other topics, because they hold no bearing on this one.  They are outside influences, this is an inside one.  We need not discuss every sin in the bible just to discuss the sin of lust.  Its perfectly fine to simply discuss lust.  Equally, it is fine to simply discuss viral marketing.  It does not matter what other issues there are...you can start a thread and discuss those.  The existence of other issues does not weaken or invalidate the seriousness of THIS one, however.

Very well said :)
 

Originally posted by Suvroc

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

This is, by the way, now a criminal offence thanks to the Federal Trade Commission.

 

I'd be very interested in knowing what exactly was the catalyst(s) for making this a criminal offense.

I have a copy of the article that discussed this when it became legislation...somewhere lol :)  Let me try to recall:  There was research done regarding viral marketting with regard to certain products.  The research findings indicated that marketters intentionally misrepresented themselves for the purpose of gaining consumers' trust.  Having gained this trust by deceptive means, they would then recommend a particular product or service.  People felt duped by this and thought it should be illegal (akin to fraud), and the FTC agreed.  This lead to legislative action ^_^.  Go FTC, I love those people.
 

Originally posted by Fishermage

 

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Originally posted by Malickiebloo

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Originally posted by Fishermage

 

It is interesting to note that you have slid into the "mental health questioning" that goes on here :)

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Na , i wouldn't go that low , I've never said people don't have a grounds to be pissed  . I've only said I wasn't at the time , That isn't saying I wasn't when CU hit. But that's like someone saying , I didn't get any more pissed off when Nagasaki got hit , I was already pissed over Hiroshima , They were both equally destructive and as equally sinister.

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YOu DID venture there. had you not cut out what I was referring to, you would have seen that. But then, that's what you do -- shift context.

 

I read your whole post , I didn't see anything . But I know exactly what comment you were talking about . But that also shows how short sighted you really can be . You have one track skipping around in your head ,every comment is about SWG or a shot at people in the refuge . But you would be completely wrong here , What would worry me is caring enough about a comany or game to blindly rehash some company line or accept money to do so . Sometimes it's nice to hold back , Just to see how someone will twist your words .

Originally posted by Fishermage

 

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Originally posted by Malickiebloo

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Originally posted by Fishermage

 

 

I am not asking you to change your approach; I am saying if you showed a more fair POSITION, regardless of approach, I would change my opinion.
 
Plus, if you are having this debate on this forum often, maybe it is YOU. Maybe you are on the wrong side, and need to rethink things.
Either way, sorry being questioned annoys you so.

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Okay if you give me examples of where I have been unfair to any one side of an issue , I'll rethink my position on that subject . I am a pre-cu fan through and through , had no love for CU , OR NGE . I don't have a problem with people bashing SOE , SWG or any of their products I just don't always agree with all the complaints.
I have a problem with insulting pre-cu or nge players in a group oriented way . I also don't like posts claiming to speak for a group , If I am one of them and disagree I will say so .
 

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I'm not going to give you EXAMPLES of every argument we've had on these forums and others. EVERY ONE was AFTER YOU took the company line, and I questioned you as to why, and you got annoyed because I dared question you so.

Just use your own memory and what we have discussed for years. I think that should suffiice.

I basically just told you how I feel about swg , And the discussions that surround it , You don't have to look anywhere but the above post . Tell me where I'm wrong in my opinion and WHY you feel that opinion is toting a company line , and I will rethink my position on that subject . One of the above would have to be something we argued about , I feel no different now than I did when I signed up here in Nov. 05.Those topics above are about the only issues I respond to in regard to SWG .

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Hadean

Whether "SWG is the worst game ever" is not the point. The cadaver of that quaint little game is pretty much irrelevant at this point.  What is relevant however is $OE's questionable business ethics. With fraudulent bait & switch tactics I would hardly call it "bullshit" when it is clearly documented.

 

Shall we pretend it never happened? Perhaps turn a blind eye to such practices? Maybe we can pull out a nice EULA argument from that ever-so-ready hat of tricks. Perhaps fraud does not exactly bleep on every person's moral radar. Some of us however find this particularly offensive. But hey, everyone is different.

 

Some of us just prefer to call a spade a spade concerning this company.

 

All business ethics are questionable from a consumers point of view. If it were fraud people would have gone to jail. Smedly isn't doing time so obviously his legal staff is better than yours. If you don't like a compnies practices don't buy their products. There is no "we". Your opinion is your own. Don't expect everyone to fall into lockstep because you think or feel that way.

Does viral marketing exist? Yes. Does SoE do it? Maybe. Does it work? Sometimes.

 

Actually if a fraud charge can be "proven" people "may" go to jail would be more accurate.  To prove this allegation, one needs to demonstrate intent to knowingly mislead consumers for the purpose of damaging them financially.
 

Two bars exist here that make prosecution challenging.  Number one is the proof of financial damage.  SOE provided refunds for the expansion that they seemed to badly misrepresent in the two dev chats leading up to its release.  This addressed the most obvious financial damage that was done to consumers.  At the time, people were in contact with their state attorney general regarding this issue.  I expect that this was a factor that led to the massive refunds.

Some people that requested a subscription refund, and copied their attorney general, again on the basis of fraud complaints, say that they even received months worth of time refunded to them. 

I think a case still exists for damage in that many people who bought time on the basis of the misleading dev chats still haven't been refunded.  This leads to the second criterion for prosecution though, proof of intent.

What's publicly known is that SOE was marketting profession revamps and features in an expansion while they were secretly developing the NGE.  The NGE would delete these very professions and make all related features in the expansion useless.  We also know that SOE staff were aware of the NGE plans before the public was, and that some requested transfers because of ethical concerns.  We know that Jeff Freeman felt the marketting at the time of the NGE was dishonest, and he said he felt very badly about that.  All of this certainly points to intent.  Is this evidence conclusive though?  I'm really not sure.  I'd like to think so, but "proof" in a legal forum can get very technical. 

In other cases what's been needed are things like insider testimony and/or documents that clearly prove malicious intent (e.g. pintos, tobacco etc.)

Authorities may still be investigating this situation regarding both issues: material damage and intent.  They may be looking for the "smoking memo" so to speak.  They may also subpoena current or former SOE/LEC employees to explore the issue of intent.  The statute of limitations hasn't run out on the NGE yet.  The authorities may also have concluded that the expansion refunds and natural consequences associated with the NGE are punishment enough to deter similar action in the future.  I've been in law enforcment myself, when I was a younger man, and I know that decisions regarding how to use resources like this get made every day.

I'm quite sure though that the FTC is taking a look at the ethics of MMO companies.  How do I know this?  'Cause they told me :)

P.S. If SOE invested as much into excellent service as they do into legal consultation and viral marketting, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.  Better for customers, better for SOE.  I really don't think the people calling the shots embrace this philosophy though--more's the pity, for everyone.

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Originally posted by Malickiebloo

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Originally posted by Fishermage

 

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Originally posted by Malickiebloo

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Originally posted by Fishermage
 
It is interesting to note that you have slid into the "mental health questioning" that goes on here :)

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Na , i wouldn't go that low , I've never said people don't have a grounds to be pissed  . I've only said I wasn't at the time , That isn't saying I wasn't when CU hit. But that's like someone saying , I didn't get any more pissed off when Nagasaki got hit , I was already pissed over Hiroshima , They were both equally destructive and as equally sinister.

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YOu DID venture there. had you not cut out what I was referring to, you would have seen that. But then, that's what you do -- shift context.
 

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I read your whole post , I didn't see anything . But I know exactly what comment you were talking about . But that also shows how short sighted you really can be . You have one track skipping around in your head ,every comment is about SWG or a shot at people in the refuge . But you would be completely wrong here , What would worry me is caring enough about a comany or game to blindly rehash some company line or accept money to do so . Sometimes it's nice to hold back , Just to see how someone will twist your words .

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I was answering your edit, which stated the following...that was the context you cut out:

"EDIT-I'd me more worried about myself If I came to a video game forum , for any reason other than looking for a place to kill some time. But that's just my opinion."

THAT is where you started to slide into the "mental health" crap that goes on here.