Generally, the people who love PK'ing are the people that have the most time.  Since in most games time is rewarded with items (the best items) and the best items affect player power (in most games even more than the person paying the character).

This really is no different than trying to enter a sport like, racing.  In order to win in racing (think small town dirt tracks where sponsors are few and far between) you must have money, lots of it.

Sure you can be a great race car driver, but at the end of the day all of that skill in driving can't make up for a lack of $$$$ quality machinery.  A mediocre driver can win if he has more money to build a better machine.

Thus:

Low skill and lots of money (time)  > high skill little time (money)

This is why we all hate (or should hate) PvP in most games.....

/steps down off soap box.....

I can hop in planetside,wwiionline,10six and kill people without needing to spend time ingame.

Its levels/items that require time not pvp.......

World domination > character progression

I just wish i could own the bases in planetside......

Originally posted by MarL

I can hop in planetside,wwiionline,10six and kill people without needing to spend time ingame.

Its levels/items that require time not pvp.......

World domination > character progression

I just wish i could own the bases in planetside......

 

I don't know what 10six is, but planetside and wwIIOL are exceptions rather than the rule, since neither of them are RPG's in any real sense.

Planetside was good fun though, until they started nerfing everything to near uselessness....I'm still bitter about my NC Jackhammer being nerfed to beyond uselessness.

Originally posted by Draenor

I don't know what 10six is, but planetside and wwIIOL are exceptions rather than the rule, since neither of them are RPG's in any real sense.

 

Planetside was good fun though, until they started nerfing everything to near uselessness....I'm still bitter about my NC Jackhammer being nerfed to beyond uselessness.

My point was that they dont have levels, and werent item centric. I dont see why this same formula cant be added to rpgs.

10six is a mmofpsrts thats extremely old(1999)....10six did have levels (added later) but you bought them with ingame cash and they did nothing but let you have more bases. (they didnt make you do more damage)

Originally posted by MarL

 

My point was that they dont have levels, and werent item centric. I dont see why this same formula cant be added to rpgs.

10six is a mmofpsrts thats extremely old(1999)....10six did have levels (added later) but you bought them with ingame cash and they did nothing but let you have more bases. (they didnt make you do more damage)

It can be but then what keeps you subscribed? No developer can possibly add static content as fast as gamers burn through it. Player generated content would seem to be the answer but most players are either intent on turning everything to crap or so easily bored they wander off with everything half finished. What you end up with is a FPS style game. If you want an FPS style game  there are plenty of good ones already out there. That's the problem with PvP. Its "lets go kill these guys and then those guys and that guy over there. What a gimp. Damn no more victims lets fire up HALO3."  There's a sameness to it all. Sieging is nice but basically you're just killing those guys and bashing down buildings. Who wants to spend time bashing down or making buildings? The PvE people want to build but they don't want their precious pixels smashed.

It's the politics behind things that get the juices flowing  but most people these days seem to be either whiney gits or jerks who just want to smash everything and piss on the broken pieces. There needs to be a bit more than stabby stabby steal your kit  teabag *sigh* now what?

I cant say that I agree with the OP. Any  PvP Guild / Clan thats worth being a member of helps it's members get the items / lvls to be effective in pvp. If your guild dosn't do this then leave and join one that does. Also You can still get lvls even if you only have a few hours of play time simply by planning out your party and the character classes that each of you play along with scheduling play time hours for that party (by planning out your party I mean things like how many party members, quality of gear, where will we lvl, what type of party will we roll with AOE or single mobs, nukes or DD, these are all things to be considered) Doing this enables you to take max advantage of the exp per hour, helps you to learn each others others play style and become better organized for pvp. The excuse I dont have the gear or the lvls is to be blunt, the battle cry of the carebears imo.

There is going to be character developement, if you don't want it play a shooter.

Funny most poeple who I see doing the PK thing on a regular basis are the ones most likely to buy gold from online gold sellers.

While my evidence is anecdotal here, I'm guessing many of us can point to others whom we know do the same.  The reason they give for doing this is that they dont' have enough time to get all the rewards etc, so they just buy them using rmt.

Why I bring this up is that this would seem to be very counter to your point of the people with the most in game time being those who PK the most. 

Further, if anything my experience with hardcore PK people is that they dont' spend hours online sharing in a community but instead log in.. kill/grief for 30 minutes - 1hr and then log off.  They tend to not participate within the communities at large (which takes a large time investment)

possibly its like that in the games you play, but i cannot say that i have seen much of that in any of the p2p mmo's I play. Every mmo has those who RMT, but the insta-gratification crowd isnt limmited to just the carebear or PK crowd it's both sides of that coin who feed the RMT buisiness. Also I cannot say that the pk characters that run around p2p games only log in just to pk, usually there are ingame politics involved wether the person who was pk'd realizes it or not, only in f2p mmo's do I ever really encounter the pk toons that your describing and most of those even having the gear lack the player skill to be anything more then a minor diversion from my time spent grinding.

your statement is biased against people who have time to play video games... or rather you assume that people who have time have no skill.

Did you get PKed a lot in the last game you played?

So much so you had to go on this board and make fun of everyone who disgraced you so horribly?

Wow...

just Wow...

they had skill enough to kill you sir, and I'm sure EVERY PKer has better gear than you.

as we say in world of warcraft,  go QQ somewhere elce

Originally posted by Talinguard

Generally, the people who love PK'ing are the people that have the most time.  Since in most games time is rewarded with items (the best items) and the best items affect player power (in most games even more than the person paying the character).

This really is no different than trying to enter a sport like, racing.  In order to win in racing (think small town dirt tracks where sponsors are few and far between) you must have money, lots of it.

Sure you can be a great race car driver, but at the end of the day all of that skill in driving can't make up for a lack of $$$$ quality machinery.  A mediocre driver can win if he has more money to build a better machine.

Thus:

Low skill and lots of money (time)  > high skill little time (money)

This is why we all hate (or should hate) PvP in most games.....

/steps down off soap box.....

Wrong.

Anybody can get online, and run up to a person and kill them within 30 seconds.

PvE, espically non-solo, raid Pve takes hours, and hours, and hours.

First you have to find a group, then it takes the hours to run it.

What takes more time?

Sure, the more you practice PvP, the better you get, but the more you PvE, the better gear you get, the more practice you get, the better you are.

PvE takes longer, unless its a one-player, or solo PvE system.

I try never to be friends with "hardcore pvpers" since normally they have a way of thinking i dont like, but i did see ALOT of people Pking/pvping in several conditions/games, that would play 30minutes/1 hour day, and they would try to maximise their gameplay time to pvp/pk...

The idea that more time = more pk, is wrong.

Originally posted by Jerid13

your statement is biased against people who have time to play video games... or rather you assume that people who have time have no skill.

Did you get PKed a lot in the last game you played?

So much so you had to go on this board and make fun of everyone who disgraced you so horribly?

Wow...

just Wow...

they had skill enough to kill you sir, and I'm sure EVERY PKer has better gear than you.

as we say in world of warcraft,  go QQ somewhere elce

This statement and those like it are usually made by those with time doing the killing.  Those that dismiss my position, as this reply above or label me as a "carebare",  something that people only assume and really know little about, is a way for you and those like you to defend your position without supporting it with any real, tangible information.  The truth is that players who spend their time (or money in the case of RMT) have more success in game, generally speaking. 

When you can't attack my position you attack me.....

The reality is hard to accept because it means that most PK'ers or any player at the top for that matter, have to admit to themselves that the acquisition of uber gear has more to do with their success than the amount of skill they have in the game.  Of course the players at the apex of any game are those with both time and skill, it's all relitive.  The point being, that all things being equal, the player with more time will have more success than those without.  Even if those without have greater skill (again, in most cases).

Does that mean you can't play 1hr a day and be successful?  No that would be silly, there are extremely skilled players who have little time and are successful, but put beside the player who plays 8 hours a day, one could rightly argue the player will less time and greater achievement isn't rightly rewarded for his skill.

Truth is I am a PK'er, a skilled PK'er who revels in the thought that I can still win without spending more than 2hrs a day online.

Only games like UT, CS, Quake and its likenesses are games where skill is everything and time only brings knowlage. 

I know there are a lot of skilled players out there that want a game that dosen't allow items (read:time or money) to be interchangable with skill...

Originally posted by Dominisi

 

Wrong.

Anybody can get online, and run up to a person and kill them within 30 seconds.

PvE, espically non-solo, raid Pve takes hours, and hours, and hours.

First you have to find a group, then it takes the hours to run it.

What takes more time?

Sure, the more you practice PvP, the better you get, but the more you PvE, the better gear you get, the more practice you get, the better you are.

PvE takes longer, unless its a one-player, or solo PvE system.

I bet in my game of choice you couldn't "run up to me and kill me in 30 sec".  You try that in most games and your success rate would be pretty low.

Now spend hours and hours PvE'ing for uber gear in the raids you spek of and your success rate will rise.  Your success will have little to do with your practice in PvE (beyond learing the game for the first time).  It will of course have to do with the point of the OP which is that time > skill.....

Originally posted by go4broke

Funny most poeple who I see doing the PK thing on a regular basis are the ones most likely to buy gold from online gold sellers.

While my evidence is anecdotal here, I'm guessing many of us can point to others whom we know do the same.  The reason they give for doing this is that they dont' have enough time to get all the rewards etc, so they just buy them using rmt.

Why I bring this up is that this would seem to be very counter to your point of the people with the most in game time being those who PK the most. 

Further, if anything my experience with hardcore PK people is that they dont' spend hours online sharing in a community but instead log in.. kill/grief for 30 minutes - 1hr and then log off.  They tend to not participate within the communities at large (which takes a large time investment)

My only comment is that I didn't mention where the "time" was spent.  The money most people use to buy via RMT was earned spending TIME, in game or out.  In MMORPG's time really does equal money.

I see your point about maximization of time, but perhaps, the PK'ers you speak of that don't participate in the more social aspects of the game do so not by choice, but of of necessity, because time spent not PK'ing or PvE'ing is wasted.  Players fear they will fall behind earning "realm" point's, honor, money, all things acquired over time used to make the character more powerful (not the player).

Originally posted by 08030

I cant say that I agree with the OP. Any  PvP Guild / Clan thats worth being a member of helps it's members get the items / lvls to be effective in pvp. If your guild dosn't do this then leave and join one that does. Also You can still get lvls even if you only have a few hours of play time simply by planning out your party and the character classes that each of you play along with scheduling play time hours for that party (by planning out your party I mean things like how many party members, quality of gear, where will we lvl, what type of party will we roll with AOE or single mobs, nukes or DD, these are all things to be considered) Doing this enables you to take max advantage of the exp per hour, helps you to learn each others others play style and become better organized for pvp. The excuse I dont have the gear or the lvls is to be blunt, the battle cry of the carebears imo.

All items in game come from time spent.  Be it your time or someone elses.  You make my point for me.  Belong to a guild with a lot of people with more time, they will get better gear and that guild will, generally speaking, have better players.

Does this mean this is how it works 100% of the time, of course not.  But it does affect play more than many in this thread are willing to admit.

Originally posted by Talinguard

Originally posted by Dominisi

 

Wrong.

Anybody can get online, and run up to a person and kill them within 30 seconds.

PvE, espically non-solo, raid Pve takes hours, and hours, and hours.

First you have to find a group, then it takes the hours to run it.

What takes more time?

Sure, the more you practice PvP, the better you get, but the more you PvE, the better gear you get, the more practice you get, the better you are.

PvE takes longer, unless its a one-player, or solo PvE system.

I bet in my game of choice you couldn't "run up to me and kill me in 30 sec".  You try that in most games and your success rate would be pretty low.

Now spend hours and hours PvE'ing for uber gear in the raids you spek of and your success rate will rise.  Your success will have little to do with your practice in PvE (beyond learing the game for the first time).  It will of course have to do with the point of the OP which is that time > skill.....

 

 

That and "I run around in circles waiting for my combat actions to cool down." 

Originally posted by paulscott

There is going to be character developement, if you don't want it play a shooter.

Think about it this way, instead of developing the character, you develop the world.

10six is an mmo with no character development and it has lasted 10 years without quests, pve, npcs.

Theres plenty of stuff to do in 10six,  scout, build, design, fight, mine.......and its only pvp.

No character development does not limit you to PvP only though, you can still do quests for cash or crafting materials. There can be economic gains, political gains, land gains, titles. There can also be gambling, stock markets, black markets, police ...rpg does not equal levels and items for an unfair advantage in pvp. (its just the way they choose to do it now)

Originally posted by MarL

Originally posted by paulscott

There is going to be character developement, if you don't want it play a shooter.

 

Think about it this way, instead of developing the character, you develop the world.

10six is an mmo with no character development and it has lasted 10 years without quests, pve, npcs.

Theres plenty of stuff to do in 10six,  scout, build, design, fight, mine.......and its only pvp.

No character development does not limit you to PvP only though, you can still do quests for cash or crafting materials. There can be economic gains, political gains, land gains, titles. There can also be gambling, stock markets, black markets, police ...rpg does not equal levels and items for an unfair advantage in pvp. (its just the way they choose to do it now)

At the risk of sounding like every other poster on this site, I have been working on a concept of my own.  I'm working on a conceptual design that focus' on primaraly on the economy.  The design effects the cycle of production, which includes where raw materials come from, how items effect combat, how wealth is stored and the logistics of transfering wealth to name a few things.

My ideas focus more on development at a higher level. Development at the realm, guild and clan level.  motivating players though self interest.

When thinking about character and player development, I put this together a while back...

·        Player skill.  My working definition for player skill looks like this;

The ability to choose the correct action for a given situation and implement that action under certain time constraints.

Things that effect player skill are;

o       Dexterity/ Reflexes

o       Memory

o       Intuition

o       Insight

o       Innate ability

o       Practice

o       Game knowledge

Things that externally effect player skill are:

o       Equipment

·        PC

·        PC speed

·        GFX power

·        Interface devices

·        Keyboard

·        Mice

·        Joysticks and controllers

o       Internet connection

On the other side we have Character “skill”.  Character skill is sort of a misnomer as the character is merely a CG representation of a playable entity, which in fact has no “skill”, merely abilities chosen by the player who must then use those abilities to achieve what ever goals that player is interested in.  I’ll refer to them as character abilities form here on….

·        Character abilities.  My definition of character abilities is;

The abilities that a player has chosen for a particular character type.

Things that effect character skill are things like:

o       Items that enhance skill

o       Players who “buff” primary and secondary attributes

·        Time

Time and the means to acquire ends are limited, thus the behavior a player assumes is in the form of choice. 

Now the question as you develop a game is how much should each category affect the game you're in.

possibly I was not clear enough in what I was trying to say.

You attempted to generalize those who pvp/pk as those who most ofent RMT. The fact is we dont. Most of the hard core pvp/pk guilds are extremely organized, the leaders of those guilds plan each and every single step thier guilds take. If you do not believe me, join one of them and pay close attention to the vent conversations.

we set up permanent exp / pvp parties, so i know each day these things 1) what time to log on.  2) who i will exp / pvp with                

we use ventrilo to comunicate because its a hell of alot easier to shout in vent kill that idiot then it is to type it out.

we discuss which skills to use for what scenario so we are prepared should we need them in the future,

we learn about not only the character class we play, but the character classes of others too, its alot easier to kill someone when you know his or her class as well as they do.

in pvp because our parties are permanent we automaticly know who are main assists are in each group, and we know each others play style so there are no suprises. 

we raid nearly every single day to gear up our members, what we do not get from raids we pull our resources and craft or buy. A good pvp guild requires normally 100k to 200k daily from its members, at end game lvls thats not a big dent into personal funds but it helps to get the guild geared up.

there is very little buying of game gold or items for RL cash involved with the hard core guilds, if anything you should be complaining that hard core guilds are the ones who most ofent sell game gold, That atleast would be true.

those who do not have a great deal of time can catch up in lvls and gear though, its not impossible to form daily exp parties for the time that you can be online, or to start setting up raid groups. I know this for fact, since i play so many mmo's i do not have a great deal of time to dedicate to any single one yet i eventualy reach the server lvl cap and have top gear all without ever having to RMT.

your being left behind in the mmo you play because you lack initiative, you can have all of the ambition in the world but if you fail to take action the organized guilds will steam roll you each and every time.