Originally posted by SteveStyle

Originally posted by eric_w66

Originally posted by BodyBuilder

It was fun... it was having skill, MEETING NEW PEOPLE *COUGH* (People are so scared of actually doing this in new MMORPGs), becoming friends and enjoying each others company... 

 

The problem is that 90% or more of the people you meet are idiots/griefers/scammers/loot thieves.

So most people find a group of friends and stick with it, and won't group with anyone they don't know because:

 

The risk is not worth the reward from grouping.

 

 In my experiences with games like EQ, EQ2, FF11, CoX, and other group heavy games, I have found most people i've met in groups to usually be nice, sharing, decently skilled people.  WoW, on the other hand, has one of the worst MMO communities i've seen, and since soling is so easy, when you do group with people at higher levels, it's a crapshoop to see if they have any skill or not.  The previous games I mentioned (among others) are much more community based, and if you are indeed a idiot/griefer/scammer/ninja looter then word spreads around and these people get groups less often.  I play WoW and enjoy it, but it's community is not something that should be seen as the regular MMO community.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I guess comparing group based games (as the ones you've mentioned)  and an easier style game (WoW, which is super mindlessly easy), each side usually has something to say about the other.

I personally love grouping.  I don't do it 100%, but if I could, I would...  but that's just my OPINION.

Absolutely not, that's why I quit FFXI.

Originally posted by BodyBuilder

So if you want to solo, why not play a single player RPG?  Just a suggestion.

I play MMO-RPGs for what the game was made for...

I understand that some days you don't want to group, and I've had many days like that... but usually 8-10 times things are just a lot more fun with real people.

Take Guild Wars for example... ever since Heros were introduced, it was next to impossible to group.  I didn't want to ever do PvE for the fact of people refusing all the time because a hero is easier.

It's been explained by many posters, many times over, and I do get why they want to play solo in an MMO. They want to see other players wandering around, they want to chat with other players, and they might want to occaisionally trade with other players.

However, what they don't want to do is work as  a team and group with other players. They just don't like that sort of gameplay. They're more interested in doing the quest, than in interacting with other people, but they enjoy the game more if other people are around while they are playing.

Originally posted by Vendayn

Originally posted by BodyBuilder

So if you want to solo, why not play a single player RPG?  Just a suggestion.

I play MMO-RPGs for what the game was made for...

I understand that some days you don't want to group, and I've had many days like that... but usually 8-10 times things are just a lot more fun with real people.

Take Guild Wars for example... ever since Heros were introduced, it was next to impossible to group.  I didn't want to ever do PvE for the fact of people refusing all the time because a hero is easier.

 

MMOs were made to group? AC was one of the pioneers in MMOs (and one of the first 3d ones) and it was good solo AND plenty of groups back in prime time. And I don't want to play a single player RPG, every one I've played (yes including morrowind) I've gotten bored of in a couple weeks...its too lonely and no economy or anything.

Just because I don't play YOUR way doesn't mean I need to go play a single player rpg.

So bitter and hostle. 

Remember Meridian 59?   Or were you even born then?  Nonetheless.  I'm not holding a pistol to your head and demanding you to do anything... and yes, actually MMO-RPGs were made to play along with friends.  Why would a company spend so much time and money and put so much content in it, and then have someone spent $10-$15 a month and never play with anyone else?

I understand there are lone-wolves in every community. 

To each their own.  But haven't you noticed that usually the ones who do group, and the ones in guilds tend to have the better gear, etc?  Trust me... I have played many MMORPGs alone, and it sucks.  I'd rather stick nails in my eyes.

It says you're 19.  Meridian 59 was out in 1996, that was the first 3D MMORPG... 13 years ago you were 6...  So perhaps you really don't know much about MMORPGs.  Hmm.

Yeah I would. MMO games are about playing with other players online. If someone wants to constantly solo then perhaps mmos are not for them. 

Originally posted by gillvane1

You could access all the content, and get all the same gear,  but you'd have to level, and come back to lower level zones to do some of the dungeons solo to get the gear, etc.

 

DDO? RFO? CoX? You've not played many games by the sound of it. The problem you find is that forced grouping games bomb like hell. People are horrible creatures (when they want to be) so forcing people to interact with them is like throwing money out the window. WoW is successful because forced grouping is only at the very tip of end-game and offers substantial rewards for putting up with people :P

EQ & EQ2 are not forced grouping. In fact EQ2 is designed to give you talent points from doing the most unique quests.

Originally posted by Vendayn

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Yeah I would. MMO games are about playing with other players online. If someone wants to constantly solo then perhaps mmos are not for them. 

 

as stated...why can't I play a MMO and solo if I want to? I don't like single player rpgs, fps games and only like rts/strategy games once in awhile. I can play MMOs for hours and subscribe to it for a long time, single player games its lucky to even see a week.

You can...  A lot do.

Just people tend to forget about the roots, and what MMO-RPG stands for. 

That's all.

I spend most of my time soloing. It gets too chaotic in groups for me. And I like to log in and out of games frequently. You always feel obliged to stay online when grouping.

And this is why I don't play MMORPG's at the moment.

Too stale of choices.

*EDIT*
Usually the MMO would gear towards playing online with other people who are like minded.  I won't argue the point since we've both came to the conclusion... to each their own, and we've both group and solo.

Yes, I would OP. I already do. I play City of Heroes/City of Villains. Experience comes in MUCH smoother and faster with a team and the game has the BEST grouping system I've ever experienced in an MMORPG. I really don't understand the people who constantly solo. From my experience with CoX, I met one who guy only soloed and said he was working on his Tanker for about a year and had him at level 36. If he would've just teamed it would've gone a lot faster. Also, on double experience weekend, (which just passed) some people were soloing.

I just think that grouping is an essential part of every MMORPG and is severely lacking in the current MMOs. I have tried WoW, twice, but cannot stay because of the horrendous grouping system. I soloed all my characters and grouped maybe twice with 3 people. A game that makes you solo is not the game for me.

I dont think anyone should be "forced" to group.   I mean I've been playing MMOs since Muds and until I played EQ2 (in its beginnings) and FFXI  I'd never felt 'forced' to group.   In Gemstone 3 I never was forced to group but it certaintly helped to group or to hang with friends which I had plenty of because it was a rather social game.  In UO ... I never had to group infact there was no true grouping feature.  It benefited you to make friends or have friends in game though but you could certaintly solo alot especially if you were a Crafter.   In EQ1 I never felt forced, there were mobs and places that you just couldn't handle alone at the appropriate level and being a social creature I enjoyed meeting new people and grouping, but I was more than able to solo and enjoy it when i wanted too or i didn't want to group because I knew my time would be really short.

EQ2 past the newb levels it was impossible to solo.  Everything was tagged to come at you in groups and it was frustrating especially if I was playing during off hours so I quit.  (went back a few times because I do love Everquest).

DDO is definitly forced grouping but I expected that.  I mean its Dungeons and Dragons the whole premise of the series is working in a group.  It ultimately killed the game's chances of healthy community size (its only decent now not healthy) (along with other issues) because it was group forced and limited in game play choices (no crafting!!)

Instead of 'forcing' grouping games should 'heavily encourage' teamwork & grouping by allowing players work together without having to actually group.  The best example of this is WAR's PQ system.  You don't have to group for a PQ and everyone that participates in some way (you can't just stand there)  gets the same chances at the end for loot regardless (you get better chances for loot if you particapte in the whole encounter).  There's no way to ninja loot etc and it benefits players to help each other.  Healers that heal players outside their group get points for it etc.    Everyone gets influence so if you don't get loot your still earning points for special gear from an npc nearby.

WAR's doing alot of things like this where solo players & groupers & guild only types can work together without having to 'group' (it helps to group we all know this).  I really think if WAR takes off we could see more teamwork encouraging games that lets everyone play to their style without punishing anyone.  Honestly a game that punishes you for only having a short time to play and not enough tiem to group deserves to fail.

If more games could make teamwork more important than actual grouping we'd probably find that solo players will and like to play with others they just don't want to wait X hours / mins to get a group together or in some cases join a group then have to ditch because of RL.  They want to jump in and play. 

Forced grouping never weeds out the asses from the good people.  Plenty of group loving people are the biggest asses in a game sometimes.

Originally posted by banthis

I dont think anyone should be "forced" to group.   I mean I've been playing MMOs since Muds and until I played EQ2 (in its beginnings) and FFXI  I'd never felt 'forced' to group.   In Gemstone 3 I never was forced to group but it certaintly helped to group or to hang with friends which I had plenty of because it was a rather social game.  In UO ... I never had to group infact there was no true grouping feature.  It benefited you to make friends or have friends in game though but you could certaintly solo alot especially if you were a Crafter.   In EQ1 I never felt forced, there were mobs and places that you just couldn't handle alone at the appropriate level and being a social creature I enjoyed meeting new people and grouping, but I was more than able to solo and enjoy it when i wanted too or i didn't want to group because I knew my time would be really short.

EQ2 past the newb levels it was impossible to solo.  Everything was tagged to come at you in groups and it was frustrating especially if I was playing during off hours so I quit.  (went back a few times because I do love Everquest).

DDO is definitly forced grouping but I expected that.  I mean its Dungeons and Dragons the whole premise of the series is working in a group.  It ultimately killed the game's chances of healthy community size (its only decent now not healthy) (along with other issues) because it was group forced and limited in game play choices (no crafting!!)

Instead of 'forcing' grouping games should 'heavily encourage' teamwork & grouping by allowing players work together without having to actually group.  The best example of this is WAR's PQ system.  You don't have to group for a PQ and everyone that participates in some way (you can't just stand there)  gets the same chances at the end for loot regardless (you get better chances for loot if you particapte in the whole encounter).  There's no way to ninja loot etc and it benefits players to help each other.  Healers that heal players outside their group get points for it etc.    Everyone gets influence so if you don't get loot your still earning points for special gear from an npc nearby.

WAR's doing alot of things like this where solo players & groupers & guild only types can work together without having to 'group' (it helps to group we all know this).  I really think if WAR takes off we could see more teamwork encouraging games that lets everyone play to their style without punishing anyone.  Honestly a game that punishes you for only having a short time to play and not enough tiem to group deserves to fail.

If more games could make teamwork more important than actual grouping we'd probably find that solo players will and like to play with others they just don't want to wait X hours / mins to get a group together or in some cases join a group then have to ditch because of RL.  They want to jump in and play. 

Forced grouping never weeds out the asses from the good people.  Plenty of group loving people are the biggest asses in a game sometimes.

Heavily encouraging people to group is what solo players call "forced grouping".

There is no way around it. Grouping takes time. You have to talk, organize, compromise, travel, wait for link dead party members, rez party member, wait on someone to buy a piece of gear or read a quest, etc.

If you don't reward that time, then it's forced soloing. If you reward that time with more content access and faster xp, solo players call it forced grouping, because they always want to level and access as much content as a group.

There isn't any way to adequately compensate both. If you reward me sufficiently for the time I spend on a group, solo players will say it's forced grouping. If you don't reward me for all that time spent grouping, then I might as well solo, because there's no need to group. All I get is lost time for nothing.

There's another issue, which is grouping dynamics. How much stronger is a party than the same amount of players solo? I like it when the group is MUCH stronger than the same number of individuals playing separately.

WoW grouping never felt like that.

Originally posted by banthis

WAR's doing alot of things like this where solo players & groupers & guild only types can work together without having to 'group' (it helps to group we all know this).  I really think if WAR takes off we could see more teamwork encouraging games that lets everyone play to their style without punishing anyone.  Honestly a game that punishes you for only having a short time to play and not enough tiem to group deserves to fail.

If more games could make teamwork more important than actual grouping we'd probably find that solo players will and like to play with others they just don't want to wait X hours / mins to get a group together or in some cases join a group then have to ditch because of RL.  They want to jump in and play. 

Forced grouping never weeds out the asses from the good people.  Plenty of group loving people are the biggest asses in a game sometimes.

No, I want actual grouping. Are you in the WAR beta? If not, then I don't think you can really know whether or not WAR will ahve a good grouping game. I thought DAoC had a good grouping game, but I don't know if WAR will or not.

So far the best feature I"ve heard about in WAR, is open groups. You don't have to ask to join, if a party has the group set to "open" you just click on it and join it automatically.

Originally posted by BodyBuilder

It says you're 19.  Meridian 59 was out in 1996, that was the first 3D MMORPG... 13 years ago you were 6...  So perhaps you really don't know much about MMORPGs.  Hmm.

Seriously are you a serial ageist? You join the forums today and make 3 posts, 2 of them insulting people for being younger than you?

Yeeeeeeeeees !!

I would !

Originally posted by gillvane1

Originally posted by banthis

WAR's doing alot of things like this where solo players & groupers & guild only types can work together without having to 'group' (it helps to group we all know this).  I really think if WAR takes off we could see more teamwork encouraging games that lets everyone play to their style without punishing anyone.  Honestly a game that punishes you for only having a short time to play and not enough tiem to group deserves to fail.

If more games could make teamwork more important than actual grouping we'd probably find that solo players will and like to play with others they just don't want to wait X hours / mins to get a group together or in some cases join a group then have to ditch because of RL.  They want to jump in and play. 

Forced grouping never weeds out the asses from the good people.  Plenty of group loving people are the biggest asses in a game sometimes.

 

No, I want actual grouping. Are you in the WAR beta? If not, then I don't think you can really know whether or not WAR will ahve a good grouping game. I thought DAoC had a good grouping game, but I don't know if WAR will or not.

So far the best feature I"ve heard about in WAR, is open groups. You don't have to ask to join, if a party has the group set to "open" you just click on it and join it automatically.

Yea im in Beta and everything the Devs have said as far as grouping / rewards and allowing viable options for both groupers and soloers is true.  Especially in the PQ sense.  (and i can say that because they've talked publically about it)
 

To me forced grouping is where the mechanics of the game give you no other choice but to group such as FFXI, DDO, and EQ2 (originally).  You couldn't play solo at all.  That is forced grouping to me and various others.   Personally i've never heard of the supposed solors don't want to do things with others at all peice I've maybe seen 1 or 2 players ever like that.  They were social but played the economy crafting etc he just wasn't into dungeons, grouping, etc.  I think putting all soloers into the same catagory is a mistake.  Some people simply have days they want to play but not find a group, some only want to group for certain things, some want to play with others but not be forced into an actual group they like to have a choice.

WAR's PQ system is the perfect system for non forced grouping (IMHO) that involves group play.  Your all playing for the same goal...to beat the encounter.   If you heal someone your rewarded, if you help someone in a fight your rewarded regardless of group you get rewarded.   Essentially the PQ System allows you to be ungrouped and work along side a group if you hit a mob and they hit a mob your rewarded according to the damage done not whether your in a group.   (though if your in a group your whole group gets adequately rewarded for the group members kill regardless of outside help).   If a healer heals someone in another group or thats solo they get rewarded.   In encourages everyone to work together without forcing you to actually "join a group".   RvR works the same way though groups obviously have the advantage since they'll have 5 other people watching their back where as a solo player would want to stick near a group and not be caught alone somewhere.  

There's very few activities in war that require you ot be in a physical group, dungeons and the king encounter are the only 2 I can think of where you have to physically group in order to participate & succeed. 

If you pay attention to what the dev's say they want realms to work together & group and there are benefits to groups but they don't want to punish or leave out people who don't want too or dont' have time to build a group. 

I understand what your trying to say you want a game where only absoluetly like minded people are going to exist.   There doesn't seem to be a short supply of those games.  Personally I won't play them I find that heavily forced games are filled with far more uptight elitests and honestly ...elitism is for kids.

Being forced to group in order to level up is a piss poor game design choice of MMO days past.

Depends on the game really, I think some from the outset that are very dungeon/instance-crawling based are in it's prime by solely grouping activities. When you have a rpg-expansive world type thing though, it is good to have solo and grouping. But, I think there is a problem that it is very much easier to solo than to group; people don't like starting groups, people don't like the process of making groups, and then people don't like the possibility they don't like someone in the group or their decisions etc. This is maybe when grouping should be strongly encouraged. How though is the operative question; EQ did it via large hp mobs making it more efficient to group, other games have group quests but people very easily simply avoid them..

Well, Here's a scenario...

You've been invited to join a raid and have a chance to get some gear you've been dieing to get your toon's hands on. It will take only two hours as long as everyone in the group knows what they're doing. You have a good three hour block of time so you agree to join...

40 minutes later the final member has joined the group. He's the uber meatshield your group must have to be successful. All you need do is to wait for him to arive at the entrance... But first he needs to do some shopping... and get some healing pots...

So 20 minutes later he shows up and you head into the dungeon/instance/map...

3/4 of the way through, someone (it doesnt matter who) makes a small mistake and the group wipes... No worries, the cleric has self rez and will get everyone up on their feet. There goes another 15-20 minutes, but if everything goes really well you can still finish before your time is up.

If everything goes well, great... If not... "Sorry guys I cant finish this... RL is intruding" or some such lame excuse and you not only dont finish, you allienate all those people you just let down and they wont be asking you to group again any time soon... Plus your wife is pissed that you took so long to quit because the children are starving and........

Now I'm a working stiff. I have a 40+ hour a week job and a family that requires my assistance/attention regularly. This gives me on average 1-2 hours an evening to sit down and run around on my favorite MMO. (CoX atm). I dont think i want to be excluded from playing my favorite game just because I cant set aside a 4+ hour block of time to play. I would be limited to 1 maybe 2 days a week. I like a game that I can run around and do small "solo" style things on when I dont have time to do more.

And when I do have that 4+ hour block I would be thrilled to join any group that would like to have my help. I do prefer groups. It's more interesting and the xp does come in a lot faster.

 If there is a "forced grouping" MMO, and if it looks and sounds interesting, I'll probably try it . But I dont hold any high hopes...  I'm not on summer break and dont have hours per day to play any game....

To those of you who do...

Cheers!

This question has been asked and answered... the only forced grouping game is final fantasy 11, if anyone actually plays that still their answer is yes.

Id play one, it depends on the premise of the game to be honest.