General Discussion

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Originally posted by GrayPixie
Why does every mmo that releases now thinks that in order to be successful you need to have classes? It is just stupid; classes limit customizability and cause you to reroll when you decide that you don’t want to play that class anymore. If you don’t want to reroll you will just quit the game all together and I doubt developers want that. <snip>
/end rant

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Class systems do not imply you have re-roll to be another class; WoW is not the end-all and be-all of class systems. It is possible to have a class system where you can do multiple classes on one character. See FFXI for a class system where it is not only possible to do multiple classes on one character, it is more or less required.

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Originally posted by Murdus
Look up Darkfall, I'm pretty sure you'll be pleased

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Until you learn you can't play it.

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Originally posted by Death1942
i dont mind classes too much.  i think however things need to be changed.  an option to do some quests to change your class (FFXI had something like that) or simply adding more stuff to classes (to make them more varied) would be a welcome change.
 
 

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Actually, FFXI lets you change your class at will whenever you're in your mog house (player housing). The quests made more jobs available for you to change to (another quest makes it possible to be two jobs at once, a necessary ability for anyone past the rank beginner stage).

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Originally posted by Flyte27
D&D uses a class system where you can combine any amount of classes for an exp penalty.

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Not any more it doesn't. Haven't read the Fourth Edition rulebooks, have you?

Originally posted by GrayPixie

UO and EVE are the only mmo's that I know that don't have classes. Neither one has been a market faliure.

What do you mean Eve does not have classes?  For example, you want to be  a tackler, you train the skills to be a tackler.  Alternatively, you could say training to fly a particular ship is the same as chosing a class.  How is this really different from chosing a class in a traditional MMO?

Istaria (Horizons)  has classes for bipeds, but you can switch to a different class at any time by talking to a trainer and then switch back without any penalty.  So the assumption that classes must lock you into a single class is as false as the assumption that a skill based game will or will not do something similar.

City of Heroes as mentioned above is a good combination of skills and classes.  For most missions, almost any combination of classes will work in a team of heroes.

I would like to see an improvement in the description of skills in games. Most skill descriptions give insufficient information to quantify the actual improvement.  Skill descriptions are often qualitative rather than quantitative,  ambiguous or use in game jargon that may have a completely different meaning in another game.  For example an "  increase in attack" in different games may or may not affect things like damage per hit and chance to hit or miss.  With such vague descriptions how do you actually calculate your increase in damage per second or damage per hit?

The actual mathematics can be quite complex.  What skill based games need is a skill planner that allows you to make some hypothetical builds to see what effect this has on your overall statistics (maximum damage per hit, damage per second, maximum hitpoints, resists, regeneration, etc).  Mids Hero Designer, made by a fan of City of Heroes, is an example of a module that allows hypothetical builds.  Another option might be to display some basic character information so that you can make comparisons before you confirm and lock in your changes.

One of the most addictive things about Everquest for me was that maximum level toons could continue to improve by earning and spending alternate experience points on skills.

The MMO's I have played have actually been a combination of classes and skills.

I want a morrowwind style system. Where you train your character by doing, and you build your character by training. And you can focus on  as many styles of fight as you want.

D&DO has classes and yet you can't tell me it doesn't have absolutely brilliant character customization. If you're looking to improve current generation MMO's, this is the wrong tree to bark up because this is the least of their problems.

Originally posted by GrayPixie

Why does every mmo that releases now thinks that in order to be successful you need to have classes? It is just stupid; classes limit customizability and cause you to reroll when you decide that you don’t want to play that class anymore. If you don’t want to reroll you will just quit the game all together and I doubt developers want that. It limits pvp to a rock paper scissors match. Take pvp in WoW for example if you play a warrior and see a mage it doesn’t matter if you have more skill and better gear you will still lose just because the class is made to kill you. And if the classes aren’t fair at release (they never are) the developers have to take time to nerf some classes and buff others, time that could be used to add more content to the game. I think Oblivion and Morrowind are perfect examples on how a no class game can work. If you don’t like the way you built your character you can just use a different type of weapon/armor/magic.  You should make your own destiny instead have the developers hold your hand the entire game.

/end rant

Please do not confuse anything that I am post here as advocating core trinity gamelay. I just say that 'cause people tend to get confuse when you are talking about the positives of a class system.

Classes serve several mechanical functions in a SOCIALLY BASED CO-OP MMORPG;

• They are a shorthand for clear and fast communication. I don't nee to have a long dscussion with a wannabe group member about what school healing did he take, or what rank is his particular style of healing at, or des he choose to have 'Perpetual Mana' or whatever as a spell. I call for a 'L50 cleric', I get a L50 cleric. I know what he does, I know what role he fills. I know he enjoys the role he has chosen to play. We can just get on with the game.
• They make a game very accessible for the starter, while providing a scaling frame for character develoments the player grows in knowledge. Classes also make it very hard for a newb to gimp his character from the go, cutting down much frustration.
• Classes encourage group roles and reduce zerg gameplay. You take away defined group jobs and you have everyone running around DPSing, healing, tanking.... The strategy element of the game has gone as we just all bullrush from one mob to the next.
• Classes give the character a strong and instant indentity, allowing even newbs to connect with them and what they do straight away.

You see, you acutally choose the exact wrong example of your point in Oblivion. First, Oblivion is really overrated as a RPG imo. Second, it actually did have classes. ok, these turned out to be a false choice as your character slowly turned into a generic porridgy grey 'adventurer', but the game did ask you to choose.

A major problems is that most MMORPGs demand a level optimised character build so even with no classes everyone would play recognised best builds. This makes most no class systems a false choice at best, as most people won't deliberetly gimp themselves and cut down their involvement in the game.

The illusion of choice is no choice at al.

Like I say, in any game built on social co-op principles, classes serve a valuable role. In today's solo casual quest grind market though? Who knows...

While I hate classes I have to agree with Gameloading.   Many players don't like complexity, look at all the negative comments that Eve draws.  Many people just want to get into a game to play and not spend hours on end trying to learn all it's depths.

Hence classes are easier to sell than an complex skill system.  So unfortunately the skill systems will most probably continue to be niche products.

Ok by me, Eve can't really handle a large population.  But I would like to see a modern fantasy game out there with a skill system.  It definitely could get a decent sized niche audience.

Most of these developers don't think, they all seem to go for the homerun instead of actually aiming for a successful niche.   Kind of dumb really because lately many of them have been simply striking out.