Originally posted by Goldknyght

You people just dont get it. The reason why SWG was changed was because it had no jedi element in the game. You people saying that the game would be better without them are people who dont want to play jedi and you failed to keep SWG afloat. Star Wars MMO should and always foremost have JEDI in the game. Jedi's arn't gods they can be killled and they arn't all powerful they just have a differant skill set. And yes i understand the timeline which is where SOE and the creators of SWG failed. You dont make a star wars game in a timeline where the jedi are all but extinct. You fan boi's n gurls go nuts and say OMG jedi arnt in this timeline your ruining our game. If you hate the game so bad for having jedi get a contract from lucas and make your own otherwise let it go.

There's more to Star Wars than Jedi.

Considering SWG, there were more players when there was little to no jedi... When jedi appeared and got all the dev focus, subscriptions started to fall.

Actually Star Wars fans started to leave the game, and on Star Wars Fan forums the first noticeable wave of "Don't play SWG" appeared... The game went from Star Wars to Jedi Online, and it lost what Star Wars it had.

I would have not had Jedi as an actual profession, but allowed players to have Force skills that would primarily enhance their other skills.  I would also allowed players to gain some of the force poweres and even lightsabers, if they chose to, but these more Jedi-ish abilities would have caused the player to gain a public TEF, along with BH visibility.  It would depend on how powerful the abilities were as implemented (I wouldn't really make them any more powerful than a normal full templated combat character), but there could be a possibility of some sort of penealty for getting killed while playing pretend Jedi.

In my ideal system, nobody would have ever been an actual Jedi, but they could have had some of the powers and pretended to be, which would have fit the timeline.

 Jedi's as an alpha class by holo grind with perma death. That being said,  there would have also have to be a way to reattain the FS slot If you killed your jedi.

Originally posted by Goldknyght

You people just dont get it. The reason why SWG was changed was because it had no jedi element in the game. You people saying that the game would be better without them are people who dont want to play jedi and you failed to keep SWG afloat. Star Wars MMO should and always foremost have JEDI in the game. Jedi's arn't gods they can be killled and they arn't all powerful they just have a differant skill set. And yes i understand the timeline which is where SOE and the creators of SWG failed. You dont make a star wars game in a timeline where the jedi are all but extinct. You fan boi's n gurls go nuts and say OMG jedi arnt in this timeline your ruining our game. If you hate the game so bad for having jedi get a contract from lucas and make your own otherwise let it go.

Ah the days when Star Wars had smugglers and droids and actually seemed alive.  Now we have Star Wars which is everything but alive.  It's Jedi and clonetroopers.  People can try and claim Star Wars heroes are Jedi but not all heroes in Star Wars are Jedi.  In fact, the greatest hero in Star Wars is a droid, R2D2.

Originally posted by miagisan

Originally posted by Goldknyght

You people just dont get it. The reason why SWG was changed was because it had no jedi element in the game. You people saying that the game would be better without them are people who dont want to play jedi and you failed to keep SWG afloat. Star Wars MMO should and always foremost have JEDI in the game. Jedi's arn't gods they can be killled and they arn't all powerful they just have a differant skill set. And yes i understand the timeline which is where SOE and the creators of SWG failed. You dont make a star wars game in a timeline where the jedi are all but extinct. You fan boi's n gurls go nuts and say OMG jedi arnt in this timeline your ruining our game. If you hate the game so bad for having jedi get a contract from lucas and make your own otherwise let it go.

I disagree totally in this sentence. The new star wars is all about jedi. But the star wars i grew up with, jedi was a subplot. I beleive a game without jedi would have been 10x more exciting, and less alpha classes are always good. Alpha classes cannot be balanced with the rest. This was a move by LA marketing to entice more players. BE A JEDI! Bleh.

Again, I totally agree with you Miagisan!

When I was growing up a lot of kids wanted to be Han more then Luke.

Totaly random on how to unlock jedi

1 jedi per 500 character per server allowed.

Perma death and skill loss.

That should keep them at bay....

Originally posted by Hauken

Totaly random on how to unlock jedi

1 jedi per 500 character per server allowed.

Perma death and skill loss.

That should keep them at bay....

 

I think this idea is great personally but imagine there are 1000's of players that would moan to hell that 'their guild has only had 1 unlock this year and so so's guild has had 3' etc etc. Developers would cave in and the Jedi would be a problem again. I realise I've been exposed to WoW but feel realistically most of the gaming community is too self centred to accept 'random.'

1. kept jedi as an alpha class

2. Jedi would be have pvp conduct regulations, where if violated they could have there jedi toon suspened for a certain amount of time.

3. The jedi grind would be a storyline, training of teh force, history of jedi and sith, jedi trials, and some grinding to work on certain skills.

Originally posted by Hadean

Put yourself in the shoes of the developers during the creation of SWG for a moment. You are discussing how to put Jedi in the game and are given carte blanche on how to implement it. As you are brainstorming several problems present themselves.

 

1) No Jedi: Nothing to grind for. Player Jedi are non-existent. Canon is absolutely preserved. Bad from a marketing point of view.

2) Alpha Class: Very long grueling grind to achieve Jedi. Rarity somewhat high and canon is more or less preserved. The Jedi are powerful. Bad from a marketing point of view.

3) Easy Jedi/Starter: Simple Jedi attainment, rarity is low and canon is not preserved. The strength of the Jedi is lowered for balance issues. Good from a marketing point of view.

 

It seems to me that developing Jedi for this game was doomed for failure. How do you make the game marketable without shredding canon to pieces and ending up with Jedi running rough-shod over the galaxy during a time when the central tenant of the story says they are almost extinct. I can only come to one conclusion. You must either say to hell with Canon, or to hell with Jedi.

 

I would like your opinions on how you would have implemented it if you were in charge.

First a few comments on your choices...

1)  with no jedi at all, it is not completely star wars as there have always been some jedi no matter what time period it was in....Jedi are such a huge part of star wars (almost if not completely the face of star wars as most of the story is based around jedi...and that's any version of games, movies or books).   So not having jedi at all is the worst marketing move of all and fans of star wars won't like it.    It's ok to have a star wars game where no jedi are in it as a playable class if it's a stand alone game...but for an online game that you have to put years a of your playing time into, you need jedi in it as a playable class as all the younger generations really know about star wars typically starts and ends with jedi....you don't think some 12 year old is concerned about the politics and fate of the galactic senate do you...no, they go aww for the lightsaber, the force powers, the action...etc.

2.)  this would not be bad for marketing....as I said in choice 1, jedi will greatly sale any star wars game.   The fact they would be an alpha class is only a problem for older gamers because of our understanding of star wars....for the younger players, they don't fully understand (maybe not even care) the meaning of why the rebels and the empire are at war....why planets are oppressed...why or how jedi struggle between the dark side or the light side....they care about action, killing, great graphics, fast paced gameplay and whatever else they feel makes it fun.   Content, story and canon is for us adults.   So I think you can have an alpha class if you want but if so, then it's got to be beyond difficult to get a jedi and remain difficult to keep it....marketing would not suffer at all.

3)  Now marketing will suffer with this option as it's already been proven by the state of swg now.   when jedi where not in the game but could be unlocked and when jedi started becoming unlocked, the game was great.   When they started listening to players and trying to please everyone and going through all their other internal problems in the company, that's when the game got bad and remained bad....you can't give away SWG now...so yeah, marketing point of view, the game is dead....I don't care how many people try to say it isn't....when I played for 3 years, the servers were packed 24/7.....now they are ghost towns.....even with or without jedi, that sucks for a star wars point of view....

Now as far as jedi, canon and the story or whatever, the problem isn't jedi.  The problem is like I said before is that jedi are practically the face of star wars.   Sure you might have Han or some other non jedi on the front cover of a game or movie, but when it comes down to it, the bulk of what goes on involves jedi and that is in nearly every movie to date.....although they tried to limit jedi in one of the movies and it ended up being the most hated one of the 6.  

So to have an online game based on star wars, you really need jedi and having them will only boost sales while not having them won't necessarily make the game unsuccessful, but certainly it won't be as successful as if you have jedi in it.    The reason I can say that is the proof is there....there are so many jedi running around because that's what majority of players want to be, a jedi.    Having the ability to play multiple characters, nearly everyone is gonna have a jedi right along with their normal class...but if 100,000 players all decide to play their jedi at the same time, then that's what you will see.   If they all decide to play a normal class at the same time then that is what you will see.    YOu can't truly control jedi or any professions or classes in a game and the amount of them you see.   So forget trying to police the visibility of jedi.   People don't want to pay a monthly subscription to only be told that they cannot play with other people with the class/profession they love the most out of star wars.   I know jedi is my favorite part of star wars....and forcing me to play it in the shadows away from other players kills the point of being a jedi in "A GAME".....

So like I said in another post today, my option would be to make different servers so that players who don't care about lots of jedi running around can play on a server where there are no restrictions on jedi.  Players who would rather have jedi limited in number or keep their visibility low can choose to play on a server where jedi are limited.    You can have the same version of the game on all the servers but just have an option a dev can choose to turn on or off as they see fit (maybe with other options as well) and they can then just go.....

server 1 is limited to no jedi

server 2 is limited to x number of jedi (maybe even use a formula of some kind to determine the amount)

server 3 is no restrictions on jedi

and also you can have say 4 servers for each type of jedi in the beginning, then based on how many players there actually are subscribing and playiing each type of server, you can then alter which servers get which restriction on jedi. 

Say more people are playing on the no restrictions jedi server.....while out of the 4 no jedi servers, only 2 servers are being used enough to warrant the existance of them....well then you can convert the 4th server to one of the other server options.   That way you won't end up not having enough server space for the jedi option that people like the most.     Also, you can simply just keep 4 of each type of server and just add a new server for the one that needs another server.

BAsically I get this idea from a cabal online somewhat.   That game has 2 servers and 20 channels for each server (which for all I know are servers themselves, I don't really know).   On a server, you have a channel dedicated for novices, one for trading and selling, 3 or 4 premium channels for paying players, 1 channel for war and the rest are regular channels  for free or paying customers.

The war channel is the only channel you can actively pvp in without suffering great penalties.   You can player kill (PK) someone on the other channels (whhich is just killing them without their consent) but eventually after 3 or 4 PK's you will lose so much honor and suffer other penalties it's not really worth PK'ing too much.    On some channels you can't even PK anyone at all though.   

As far as I know all the channels run the same version of the game, but obviously the developers have some way of restricting PVP on each channel if they so choose.    So I say take it a step further and for a star wars jedi issue, modify that option so that you can control the amount of jedi for a server.

There you have it....those that can care less about cannon, can play on the no restrictions jedi servers and those who hate seeing jedi can play on the no jedi or limited jedi servers.

As for being an alpha class....that's tricky....I'm not really sure if that's good or not....I had no problem with it either way when swg had them as alpha classes or starting classes as I just loved playing jedi period.    Although I will admit I did like the powerful feeling of being an alpha class....not for pvp though as I don't really like pvp in any game unless it's fully twitched based where it's all about the actual players read and recognition skills not who has the better items equipped and can use the right move at the right time....games that use D&D style rules for pvp are more of chess to me rather than actual pvp.   For pve though, there wasn't a whole lot of difference between being an alpha class jedi or a normal class jedi except bosses and tough dungeons.     So jedi were weaker as starter professions but that did not change the fun I had in PVE with them....it only increased the difficulty of playing with them a small bit.

Overall, Jedi have to be part of any online based star wars game....for a standalone game, it don't matter....I mean I play republic commando and don't miss being a jedi in that game at all...but no one woule complain about that game because the concept is that you playing elite storm (clone) troopers.....and your only witnessing the star wars universe from that perspective.    in an online game though, you are supposed to be witnessing a whole galaxy and nothing that is a part of that galaxy should be left out...especially when it's a huge part of the overall story.

Also, I think people fail to realize that no game can ever be fully committed to the timeline it's made in because in order for a game to remain a game and be fun, you have to stretch the limits of some things.  YOu have to allow some things that aren't possible in the real timeline.  If you don't, then you end up with a game that is, well like the current SWG....something majority of gamers don't even bother playing anymore.

Originally posted by Suvroc

Originally posted by miagisan

Originally posted by Goldknyght

You people just dont get it. The reason why SWG was changed was because it had no jedi element in the game. You people saying that the game would be better without them are people who dont want to play jedi and you failed to keep SWG afloat. Star Wars MMO should and always foremost have JEDI in the game. Jedi's arn't gods they can be killled and they arn't all powerful they just have a differant skill set. And yes i understand the timeline which is where SOE and the creators of SWG failed. You dont make a star wars game in a timeline where the jedi are all but extinct. You fan boi's n gurls go nuts and say OMG jedi arnt in this timeline your ruining our game. If you hate the game so bad for having jedi get a contract from lucas and make your own otherwise let it go.

I disagree totally in this sentence. The new star wars is all about jedi. But the star wars i grew up with, jedi was a subplot. I beleive a game without jedi would have been 10x more exciting, and less alpha classes are always good. Alpha classes cannot be balanced with the rest. This was a move by LA marketing to entice more players. BE A JEDI! Bleh.

 

Again, I totally agree with you Miagisan!

When I was growing up a lot of kids wanted to be Han more then Luke.

agree?? what movies were you guys watching? i remember the whole starwars trilogy being about a jedi saving teh galaxiy. yeah it had other things in it liek smugglers and wookies. but i know who the main character was and what his skills were about. i know who the main villains were and what they were about too.
 

Originally posted by jadan2000

Originally posted by Suvroc

Originally posted by miagisan

Originally posted by Goldknyght

You people just dont get it. The reason why SWG was changed was because it had no jedi element in the game. You people saying that the game would be better without them are people who dont want to play jedi and you failed to keep SWG afloat. Star Wars MMO should and always foremost have JEDI in the game. Jedi's arn't gods they can be killled and they arn't all powerful they just have a differant skill set. And yes i understand the timeline which is where SOE and the creators of SWG failed. You dont make a star wars game in a timeline where the jedi are all but extinct. You fan boi's n gurls go nuts and say OMG jedi arnt in this timeline your ruining our game. If you hate the game so bad for having jedi get a contract from lucas and make your own otherwise let it go.

I disagree totally in this sentence. The new star wars is all about jedi. But the star wars i grew up with, jedi was a subplot. I beleive a game without jedi would have been 10x more exciting, and less alpha classes are always good. Alpha classes cannot be balanced with the rest. This was a move by LA marketing to entice more players. BE A JEDI! Bleh.

 

Again, I totally agree with you Miagisan!

When I was growing up a lot of kids wanted to be Han more then Luke.

agree?? what movies were you guys watching? i remember the whole starwars trilogy being about a jedi saving teh galaxiy. yeah it had other things in it liek smugglers and wookies. but i know who the main character was and what his skills were about. i know who the main villains were and what they were about too.
 

Just to clarify I was agreeing with Miagisan on the highlighted comment. I think the SW universe is quite complex and deep enough that it doesn't have to be all about Jedi. As a matter of fact I believe the new SW T.V. series is focused on a bounty hunter.

But still, I can understand what Miagisan is saying in regards to Jedi being a sub-plot. I guess it can be argued that the GCW really is the over-riding plot of the story. I'm not sure how I feel about this yet but this would make an interesting conversation.

Originally posted by Obee

I would have not had Jedi as an actual profession, but allowed players to have Force skills that would primarily enhance their other skills.  I would also allowed players to gain some of the force poweres and even lightsabers, if they chose to, but these more Jedi-ish abilities would have caused the player to gain a public TEF, along with BH visibility.  It would depend on how powerful the abilities were as implemented (I wouldn't really make them any more powerful than a normal full templated combat character), but there could be a possibility of some sort of penealty for getting killed while playing pretend Jedi.

In my ideal system, nobody would have ever been an actual Jedi, but they could have had some of the powers and pretended to be, which would have fit the timeline.

 

I like this idea, but I am not sure if the fans would have wnet for it. I, however, would have loved such a system!

Pre-Publish 9 in the Pre-CU days had the basic idea for implementing Jedi right (for most parts).

* A Jedi Knight or Master (not a wet-behind-the-ears Padawan) would be very, very potent.  Should be able to take down a few non-Jedi players down with savvy play.

* Leave the diversity of the Jedi skillbox/skilltrees, but some needed to be made more useful to allow a larger variety of builds.

* Permadeath.  x3 deaths (PvE or PvP), and that Jedi character is gone.  Forever.  Reroll a normal character.

* Retain visibility system but more danger.  Retain prospect of opportunistic, cunning Bounty Hunters trying to get Jedi.  Actually implement the chance of Darth Vader hunting the Jedi down with his personal army of Imperial forces.

This system would do several things:

Actually allow Jedi in the game but the visibility and Permadeath will keep them in check.  IMO, a fair balance with gameplay and continuity.

It would mean Jedi would be truly something special, not a "dime a dozen" like they later were or in the Prequel movies.  A Jedi showing himself for combat is a momentous occasion, but risks the full wrath of the Empire.

You will no longer see the travesty of having more Jedi onscreen than you would Stormtroopers or Rebel infantry.

Originally posted by Warmaker

Pre-Publish 9 in the Pre-CU days had the basic idea for implementing Jedi right (for most parts).

* A Jedi Knight or Master (not a wet-behind-the-ears Padawan) would be very, very potent.  Should be able to take down a few non-Jedi players down with savvy play.

* Leave the diversity of the Jedi skillbox/skilltrees, but some needed to be made more useful to allow a larger variety of builds.

* Permadeath.  x3 deaths (PvE or PvP), and that Jedi character is gone.  Forever.  Reroll a normal character.

* Retain visibility system but more danger.  Retain prospect of opportunistic, cunning Bounty Hunters trying to get Jedi.  Actually implement the chance of Darth Vader hunting the Jedi down with his personal army of Imperial forces.

This system would do several things:

Actually allow Jedi in the game but the visibility and Permadeath will keep them in check.  IMO, a fair balance with gameplay and continuity.

It would mean Jedi would be truly something special, not a "dime a dozen" like they later were or in the Prequel movies.  A Jedi showing himself for combat is a momentous occasion, but risks the full wrath of the Empire.

You will no longer see the travesty of having more Jedi onscreen than you would Stormtroopers or Rebel infantry.

That would have been cool. If I recall correctly I thought some of the jedi loudly complained 3 deaths was unfair because the might go LD etc. and they complained about visibility because they said it kept them from grouping with their friends in a mmorpg...

Not agreeing, those are just some of the arguments I remember.

jedi was fine after pub 9

it gave us a great quest that you had to work with and support other players to do

and jedi was the best quest reward ever.

it was fine the way it was till the nge ruined it.

The issue I had with Jedi in the game, the quest to become a Jedi BECAME the game. 

My the system would be100% random like a lottery. For simplicity sake, say a server could have 10 Jedi. With a scaled perma-death system, as one toon dies , a spot opens up and a random person is chosen for an unlock slot. They can I either choose to take the slot, not take the slot and wait for another random chance or keep the slot as a non Jedi toon but be removed from the random selection process altogether. Also upon death, the Jedi slot could be converted to a regular character slot, but again the player would be removed from the random selection. 

My approach would have allowed Jedi as an alpha class, maybe even more powerful then what they were Pre NGE, but only as they reached higher ranks, Knight and Master etc, But with great risk and required activity in both PvE and PvP as the character advances.

I also would include: 

Experience decay/skill decay with inactivity

Limited inventory and space and restrictions on what items a Jedi could posses

Limit on the amount of credits a Jedi could hold.

Master/Padawan system

Distinct Dark Side path. 

By removing any influence an individual player has on becoming a Jedi it would alleviate a lot of what I found wrong with the game as a whole, the grind for Jedi consuming a large portion of the playerbase. It would also keep Jedi rare and hidden, and only those truly committed to playing a Jedi the “correct” way would stand a chance on keeping them alive for a long period of time and achieving the higher ranks and the increased power that goes along with them. 

IMHO this is the most fair and balanced way to have an alpha class like Jedi in an MMO.

Originally posted by Zaush

My the system would be100% random like a lottery. For simplicity sake, say a server could have 10 Jedi. With a scaled perma-death system, as one toon dies , a spot opens up and a random person is chosen for an unlock slot. They can I either choose to take the slot, not take the slot and wait for another random chance or keep the slot as a non Jedi toon but be removed from the random selection process altogether. Also upon death, the Jedi slot could be converted to a regular character slot, but again the player would be removed from the random selection. 

My approach would have allowed Jedi as an alpha class, maybe even more powerful then what they were Pre NGE, but only as they reached higher ranks, Knight and Master etc, But with great risk and required activity in both PvE and PvP as the character advances

My approach?

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2155006#2155006

Great minds think alike.

Originally posted by TookyG

Originally posted by Zaush

My the system would be100% random like a lottery. For simplicity sake, say a server could have 10 Jedi. With a scaled perma-death system, as one toon dies , a spot opens up and a random person is chosen for an unlock slot. They can I either choose to take the slot, not take the slot and wait for another random chance or keep the slot as a non Jedi toon but be removed from the random selection process altogether. Also upon death, the Jedi slot could be converted to a regular character slot, but again the player would be removed from the random selection. 

My approach would have allowed Jedi as an alpha class, maybe even more powerful then what they were Pre NGE, but only as they reached higher ranks, Knight and Master etc, But with great risk and required activity in both PvE and PvP as the character advances

 

My approach?

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2155006#2155006

Great minds think alike.

The only issue I have doing at character creation is you would have people creating and deleting toons over and over until they got an unlock.

Originally posted by justkillswg

jedi was fine after pub 9

it gave us a great quest that you had to work with and support other players to do

and jedi was the best quest reward ever.

it was fine the way it was till the nge ruined it.

Of course the Jedi loved things after Publish 9.

* They bagan to hog up a disproportionately high amount of publish attention.  They received several passes while certain non-Jedi professions never received a revamp.

* SOE, after Publish 9, began to remove all the safeguards on containing the Jedi population.  Before Publish 9, you counted yourself as one of the lucky few who saw a Jedi in action.  It was a moment to remember.  After Publish 9, Jedi were EVERYWHERE, parading around in groups, dueling out in the open, etc.

* The Jedi population spun out of control.  There were more Jedi onscreen than Stormtroopers.  Jedi began to dominate the GCW/PvP scene.  If you weren't a Jedi or Doctor, you were a hindrance in PvP.