General Discussion

Originally posted by vajuras

 

You forget, items have level restrictions on them. Twinking is a problem in WoW because the game is such a loot fest. City of Heroes didn't suffer from that and many other MMORPGs

 

Besides in most linear titles you often have no economy to begin with. This is really their advantage, it makes them much simplier games to play for casuals. They dont have to worry about grinding out gold or anything

And low level content is already worthless in most linear titles. You have no reason to ever go back there. Compare that to a sandbox like eVE where vets go to high sec all the time never leaving trade hubs. Even a newbie can produce an item a veteran can use. Isn't that something?

Linear titles are seriously not trying to have a complex economy to begin with. Bop items by far had most value in WoW when I played. You had to raid or do pvp for best equips

I like the way that City of Heroes handles these issues.  Enhancements, once applied to a skill, are really the same as soulbound, since you cannot then resell them on the player market.

Placing level restrictions on equipping or using stuff is quite effective in some games. 

Eve uses level restrictions as to what equipment you can use on your ship.  Its just that in Eve, it is called minimum skill requirements.

Also, having high level items being only partially effective on low level toons is very effective in some games.   With this type of item, it improves as you level, so you do not have to keep upgrading.  A high level item that is partially effective on a low level character  can still be a very good item without being massively overpowered,  Its just a matter of getting formula right when used by low level toons.  A level 1 toon using a godly maximum level  item  would be way too powerful for the content if it got full benefit, but if the benifits were scaled down correctly, it can still be powerful without being overpowered.

Never liked the idea of people buying their way through a game.  It supports gold farming.  It supports lazyness.  The best stuff in a MMO should only be obtained from actually playing and experiencing the game.  If you see a player with that sword of n00b slaying, you know they actually did something to get it.  If I know that anyone willing to spend REAL money can get exactly what I can, I have no reason to want anything.  It trivializes my effort.  It makes playing the game pointless and my time seem wasteful.

Thats why BOP works.    In a game based on progression and defeating tough encounters, who wants to play when you can easily just buy your way through it all?  Its moronic. 

If its a VW and people are just existing and chating, then I can see buying and selling everything there is.  What else is there to do in that sort of game?

Originally posted by Josher

Never liked the idea of people buying their way through a game.  It supports gold farming.  It supports lazyness.  The best stuff in a MMO should only be obtained from actually playing and experiencing the game.  If you see a player with that sword of n00b slaying, you know they actually did something to get it.  If I know that anyone willing to spend REAL money can get exactly what I can, I have no reason to want anything.  It trivializes my effort.  It makes playing the game pointless and my time seem wasteful.

Thats why BOP works.    In a game based on progression and defeating tough encounters, who wants to play when you can easily just buy your way through it all?  Its moronic. 

If its a VW and people are just existing and chating, then I can see buying and selling everything there is.  What else is there to do in that sort of game?

This is essentially the heart of the matter.  However I'm all for a crafting system that allows for a BOP component to be used.  Allow that BOP component to be traded (but unable to be used by anyone but the original looter)  allow experimentation of crafters and quality of materials

and you have a possibility of a more robust economy than what we see now in the majority of MMO's.

Gold farming is a controversial issue, I don't particularly care for it, but too many people believe that you should be able to do RMT for time savings in these games.  Always forgetting the concept of game and risk/reward/time investment.  So they shortcut one of them sadly :(

Originally posted by Josher

Never liked the idea of people buying their way through a game.  It supports gold farming.  It supports lazyness.  The best stuff in a MMO should only be obtained from actually playing and experiencing the game.  If you see a player with that sword of n00b slaying, you know they actually did something to get it.  If I know that anyone willing to spend REAL money can get exactly what I can, I have no reason to want anything.  It trivializes my effort.  It makes playing the game pointless and my time seem wasteful.

Thats why BOP works.    In a game based on progression and defeating tough encounters, who wants to play when you can easily just buy your way through it all?  Its moronic. 

If its a VW and people are just existing and chating, then I can see buying and selling everything there is.  What else is there to do in that sort of game?

I agree with this view, but there are different systems of design that can defeat this trend without hindering the crafting-based economy.

Such as the dynamic world setting (that is, all cities are newbie friendly, and that the further you are away from cities, the rules gets less and less, such as cities bans all PvP except Duels in arenas, x range from City consent-PvP turns on, and further on out you get FFA PvP...)  combine with systems which doesn't judge by items/levels to dictates player's power, and that only those who are capable will get ahead than those who "buy they way to the top..."   How do you buy to the top when upward progression are limited and that there are no character levels?  Those who tries would get beaten by those who know of their character, and play to its strength.

But that's all based on the design.  With the present design, people will still be able to do "buy your way to the top..."  whether be gold farming, powerleveling, etc...

There needs to be certain "NO TRADE" items, but only items that are important either stat-wise or lore-wise. Those items would truly be legendary and would stay with the character forever, but items that he used in the past (say a level 30 sword, and he's level 50) shouldn't be bound to him forever. He could sell it or give it to another character if there wasn't any rules preventing that. This would help keep the low level economy cheap, which is essential, because a level 30 is never going to have as much money as a level 50...legally.

Only reason I want to see it gotten rid of is for a full loot system. With a full loot system you can't have bound stuff.

Games are just better when you can loot your opposition dry to the bone.

Originally posted by gath

Originally posted by Zygote007
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and gold sellers?

[...]

 

The soulbound items are the best answer to fight gold selling. Saying gold selling is a problem, then saying one of the key features against it should be removed, doenst make much sense.

You give an example that guild sell 'runs'. Guess what? Farmers also did that. They never got very far with it since it doenst work properly from the "exploiter" point of view, making it not profitable.

Altought isnt very funny, but i dont have much problem with guild runs. Prefer to have some few downsides, then having alot of downsides. In the end, those same guild sellers, will regreat it, since they lost their time gearing up everyone else, and they got passed by.

Also, binded items is a good way to reward player for achievments. Ok, so someone kills the hardest boss in the game, gets a sword, then sells it to some 'noob' that bought gold. Does it sound interesting?

So now what? The 'noob' goes PvP with his godly gear, without having to had any trouble getting it?

I remember the days of D2, and the mass item sellout by farmers, and i just hope D3 will have soulbound gear, else, it will become the biggest joke ever.

 

Some studies point that gold sellers will make more profit then game makers, in the next few years... fun times ahead... not.

Dont try to remove the biggest gold selling 'block'... (that exists so far...)

People still buy gold to buy mats. Making items BoP or BoE does not deter anything. It just make it a little harder to get, but obviously still viable since guilds sell off items in raid runs.

Also, the guilds who do this are the top guilds on their servers. They are not behind anyone.

Secondly, the devs for D3 already stated that there will be no BoE or BoP items in D3. The Diablo community does not want this. It would ruin the game. Diablo is all about finding items and trading. So I guess you can start crying now.

Originally posted by Aethios

 

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Originally posted by DeserttFoxx
Soulbound items in my opinion just force players to experience the game. Back when there was no need to farm for anything, players would just take heaps of gold and buy it, never experiencing certain boss encounters or certain dungeons.

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For more specific examples, see Runescape.

That game is an exercise in people playing a game without actually playing the game. They just grind and grind and grind and never actually do anything. Then they spend the billions of gold they've earned on a piece of gear they'll never use because they don't risk their stuff killing the hard monsters that drop the good loot.

Personally, I think soulbound items are a terrible idea, but it's pretty much required unless you have some sort of permanent durability system in place. If items are destroyed after too much use, it becomes a money sink to wear gear over your "pay grade," so to speak. People won't be in such a rush to buy stuff better than they could earn themselves.

BoP/BoE do not force you to experience the game, they force you to grind. Look at WoW. The game is an asian grinder in disguise, it's just that all you who praise it cant see that the quests and "lore" (what a joke of a lore it is) is just a veil. Instead of just killing mobs and not doing a quest, you kill X amount of mobs and turn in X number of bear paws for some extra XP. You grind hour upon hour upon hour for rep and hour upon hour upon hour to raid.

MMO's are all grinds. Some are just more fun than others when they give you a sense of accomplishment, like EQ1 and the original MMOs did. The new style of MMOs that have popped up in the last 4 years are all jokes. It's a cake walk in an amusement park that you're guided around by an invisible hand. A perpetual and dull merry-go-round.