Originally posted by BushMonkey

 Sorry this thread fails, " The Players" never even entered into the equation.

They didnt?

They didnt have "sit downs" in zones when they didnt like something...causing servers to crash? Thats funny, news like that always flew over onto the EQ servers I was on, or sites like FoH.

Dont get me wrong, I wouldnt of been happy with the credit dupe bans...but folks still were disrupting service to those whom might not of been along for the ride(that is read they didnt have issues atm). There is a way to handle such matters, crashing servers is not it.

You see even unto this very day, when an MMO has an exploit blow up huge on a game, the company that runs said MMO has to do whatever they can to save their in-game economy. It isnt just SWG that bans accounts, then adds em back in when the company checks the accounts out....allowing the legit players back into game.

Another thing I hjave seen over the years is that even when something was wrong/balance breaking, and SOE would want to correct it, the players would revolt on boards etc to epic proportions. That was some other things I heard about during the time on various sites/in EQ.

I have watched the train wreck in the forum here since just after the NGE(Followed the OBs when NGE launched, until they had banned most the vets).

Everything I have seen first hand, or read about pertaining to SWG, has been nothing short of outright childish behavior by a number of the players.

That isnt to dismiss SOE/LA on their part...they swapped game to NGE with no warning/input from community, released a POS, etc etc

That still doesnt excuse how some have acted, and still act, even till this very day.

   SOE is the one to blame for the downfall.

I just hope that KOTOR 3 isn't ran by SOE.

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Originally posted by Moaky07

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Originally posted by BushMonkey

 Sorry this thread fails, " The Players" never even entered into the equation.

---

 
They didnt?
They didnt have "sit downs" in zones when they didnt like something...causing servers to crash? Thats funny, news like that always flew over onto the EQ servers I was on, or sites like FoH.
Dont get me wrong, I wouldnt of been happy with the credit dupe bans...but folks still were disrupting service to those whom might not of been along for the ride(that is read they didnt have issues atm). There is a way to handle such matters, crashing servers is not it.
You see even unto this very day, when an MMO has an exploit blow up huge on a game, the company that runs said MMO has to do whatever they can to save their in-game economy. It isnt just SWG that bans accounts, then adds em back in when the company checks the accounts out....allowing the legit players back into game.
Another thing I hjave seen over the years is that even when something was wrong/balance breaking, and SOE would want to correct it, the players would revolt on boards etc to epic proportions. That was some other things I heard about during the time on various sites/in EQ.
I have watched the train wreck in the forum here since just after the NGE(Followed the OBs when NGE launched, until they had banned most the vets).
Everything I have seen first hand, or read about pertaining to SWG, has been nothing short of outright childish behavior by a number of the players.
That isnt to dismiss SOE/LA on their part...they swapped game to NGE with no warning/input from community, released a POS, etc etc
That still doesnt excuse how some have acted, and still act, even till this very day.
 

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None of that has any relevance to the idea of whose fault is it that the game failed. When a business venture fails, it is the people that run that business that are at fault. By definition the customers are not to blame. how customers behave has no bearing on that equation at all.

It may be an interesting discussion, as a separate, sociological discussion, but it has nothing to do with blame and failure.

that is always 100% the fault of th business and the people running it.

In this case it is mostly SOE's (for making it happen through mismanagement, other mistakes and a lack of business ethics) and partially LA's (for not doing their homework, for trusting SOE to know what they were doing, and allowing it to happen).

You are a master-de-bater Fish...not even gonna go there with ya.

You can take someones meaning and twist it six ways to Sunday. Impressive skill as far as wordplay goes, yet it still doesnt change things in reality. The players themselves did indeed help tanrish the image. Yes the far majority falls upon SOE/LA...but their are a faction of players that made the whole smell "rank" to those of us outside the game.

Yep that word twisting is handy...reason why lawyers get paid the big bucks to get criminals out of trouble. They know how to re-arrange things to their advantage. When everything else fails, they throw down to semantics...or that nice little chat we had...about phalacies.

So list me every broken rule in the book of arguements ya wish...it still doesnt change that SWg was perceived, by many of us not playing, as having a fracked up player base. And YES...I am sure it changed some folks mind when it come to the issue of "should I try this game out?".

Do us both a favor though...take a look at what is going on right now...and see what some of your fellow "vets" have been about all along. The ones I have prodded all this time.

They are easy to spot...they keep making flame threads on the main general brds pretty much attacking everyone on this site.

You need to realize the folks, whose company you keep, arent exactly angels in all this.

Whatever happened with SOE has nothing to do with Bioware...yet already the fight has begun. And what is up with them always throwing mental insults at anyone that didnt like SWG...or accusing them of being SOE employees/whatever else comes to their minds?

I can tell ya already...before I ever sign up for KOTOR online(if there will indeed even be one), it wont be until I know where the "vets" have settled on the various servers.

That way I can avoid em like the plague.

The players are responsible for the failure of SWG? Sounds like a viral marketing campaign to me!

SOE is getting really desperate...

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Originally posted by Moaky07
You are a master-de-bater Fish...not even gonna go there with ya.
You can take someones meaning and twist it six ways to Sunday. Impressive skill as far as wordplay goes, yet it still doesnt change things in reality. The players themselves did indeed help tanrish the image. Yes the far majority falls upon SOE/LA...but their are a faction of players that made the whole smell "rank" to those of us outside the game.
Yep that word twisting is handy...reason why lawyers get paid the big bucks to get criminals out of trouble. They know how to re-arrange things to their advantage. When everything else fails, they throw down to semantics...or that nice little chat we had...about phalacies.
So list me every broken rule in the book of arguements ya wish...it still doesnt change that SWg was perceived, by many of us not playing, as having a fracked up player base. And YES...I am sure it changed some folks mind when it come to the issue of "should I try this game out?".
Do us both a favor though...take a look at what is going on right now...and see what some of your fellow "vets" have been about all along. The ones I have prodded all this time.
They are easy to spot...they keep making flame threads on the main general brds pretty much attacking everyone on this site.
You need to realize the folks, whose company you keep, arent exactly angels in all this.
Whatever happened with SOE has nothing to do with Bioware...yet already the fight has begun. And what is up with them always throwing mental insults at anyone that didnt like SWG...or accusing them of being SOE employees/whatever else comes to their minds?
I can tell ya already...before I ever sign up for KOTOR online(if there will indeed even be one), it wont be until I know where the "vets" have settled on the various servers.
That way I can avoid em like the plague.

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so in other words, since you can't actually win an argument with me, you attack me by complimenting my skills, and imply I am twisting things and other nonsense. You then throw in more irrelevancies like guilt by association.

/yawn

next?

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Originally posted by vet-in-exile
The players are responsible for the failure of SWG? Sounds like a viral marketing campaign to me!
SOE is getting really desperate...

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First they blamed Raph Koster. then they blamed WoW, then they blamed the players. Shifting blame is pretty much the standard SOE tactic throughout this whole debacle.

Originally posted by Fishermage

 

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Originally posted by vet-in-exile
The players are responsible for the failure of SWG? Sounds like a viral marketing campaign to me!
SOE is getting really desperate...

---

 

First they blamed Raph Koster. then they blamed WoW, then they blamed the players. Shifting blame is pretty much the standard SOE tactic throughout this whole debacle.

The leak that Bioware's MMO is in fact going to be Star Wars has riled up a few folks it seems.  I think we'll be seeing a renewed effort to absolve SOE of any responsibility from here on out.  They would have gotten away with it to, if it wasn't for those meddling facts and that dog...

Scooby-dooby-dooo!

Hah Fisher....

I knew you wouldnt resist the urge. Bait taken.

Jokes on you  pal...your "partners in crime" are tripping over themselves with this news being released. Frantic that they wont get the "precious" that has been craved for 2.5 yrs now.

Folks still going on about "We will get classic servers anyday". Yes indeed...any day. Shall I link the posts...or are you capable of finding them? Must admit...I dont think it has been this frantic since  when the NGE was first dropped.

Now where have we heard the line about "any day"  I wonder? Oh thats right...we have heard it for 2.5 yrs now.

Yep Fish...you twist words great. The master de-bater supreme.

Doesnt change facts...no "precious"...not for the last 2.5+ yrs...nor in the future. Doesnt change the bad rep a segment of the vet crowd has...and is making worse currently.

And in the quest for the "precious", we are going to see a lot of heads rolling off MMORPG very soon with all the attacks being made towards those of us who feel the "precious" was a POS. 

Keep those fallacies sharpened Fish...that and 50 cents will get ya a cup of coffee.

What it wont do is get the "precious" back. Gotta luv it.

Good day to ya :)

Originally posted by Moaky07

Hah Fisher....

 

I knew you wouldnt resist the urge. Bait taken.

Jokes on you  pal...your "partners in crime" are tripping over themselves with this news being released. Frantic that they wont get the "precious" that has been craved for 2.5 yrs now.

Folks still going on about "We will get classic servers anyday". Yes indeed...any day. Shall I link the posts...or are you capable of finding them? Must admit...I dont think it has been this frantic since  when the NGE was first dropped.

Now where have we heard the line about "any day"  I wonder? Oh thats right...we have heard it for 2.5 yrs now.

Yep Fish...you twist words great. The master de-bater supreme.

Doesnt change facts...no "precious"...not for the last 2.5+ yrs...nor in the future. Doesnt change the bad rep a segment of the vet crowd has...and is making worse currently.

And in the quest for the "precious", we are going to see a lot of heads rolling off MMORPG very soon with all the attacks being made towards those of us who feel the "precious" was a POS. 

Keep those fallacies sharpened Fish...that and 50 cents will get ya a cup of coffee.

What it wont do is get the "precious" back. Gotta luv it.

 

Good day to ya :)

What the heck are you rambling about?

You make as much sense as Smedley talking about how Monthly subscription in MMORPG's are failing..

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Originally posted by Moaky07
Hah Fisher....
 
I knew you wouldnt resist the urge. Bait taken.
Jokes on you  pal...your "partners in crime" are tripping over themselves with this news being released. Frantic that they wont get the "precious" that has been craved for 2.5 yrs now.
Folks still going on about "We will get classic servers anyday". Yes indeed...any day. Shall I link the posts...or are you capable of finding them? Must admit...I dont think it has been this frantic since  when the NGE was first dropped.
Now where have we heard the line about "any day"  I wonder? Oh thats right...we have heard it for 2.5 yrs now.
Yep Fish...you twist words great. The master de-bater supreme.
Doesnt change facts...no "precious"...not for the last 2.5+ yrs...nor in the future. Doesnt change the bad rep a segment of the vet crowd has...and is making worse currently.
And in the quest for the "precious", we are going to see a lot of heads rolling off MMORPG very soon with all the attacks being made towards those of us who feel the "precious" was a POS. 
Keep those fallacies sharpened Fish...that and 50 cents will get ya a cup of coffee.
What it wont do is get the "precious" back. Gotta luv it.
 
Good day to ya :)

---

If you have to ask Wolf, you either havent been following the vet brds...or you didnt read the thread.

Everything is self evident.

And Fish... for the record...you took a strawman and run with it. I knew if I threw up a distraction, you would miss it entirely.

My stated position was that a section of the vet population has a bad rep. It added to why folks didnt wanna play SWG. You tried to turn it into a "I stand by SOE" or "it doesnt matter cause I said so"....which is not contained in my posts. I gave far majority credit to SOE/LA for their part.

I pointed out negatives about a segment of the vet population...and you offered nothing besides how "great" you are.

I know I know...there is a special Fish gets a second chance "get out of jail" squared...to the third degree with honors type rule thing. Please quote it for us...then respond to my actual statements this time.

Vanity...it is some individual's downfall. Next time... stick to the post before you put your shoulder out of socket from "patting yourself on the back" or "front... or whatever it is you masters do.

And as I said before....have a great day cause I dont think things could be peachier around MMORPG AFAIAC.

O and for my long time fan out there, who has made a habit the last 2 yrs of attempting to get me banned...I got last nights warning you submitted rescinded. I see you arent posting today....guess you werent so lucky.

Next time ,might wanna not report me, when you are the one throwing specific insults a persons way. :)

LOL, is that all you guys got?

Originally posted by Fishermage

 

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Originally posted by Jatwhal
MikeMB. Yep I was there and am still there.  I'm a Fellucan pvp'er since launch.  But I'm on the good side of it.  Never played a red char was always the pk hunter...
Again I think it was a combination of things but it puzzles me (well not really I know it's blind hatred) that the Vet*H8rs don't recall it.
Maybe it was because they were inexperienced mmorpg players and the "I can't win" people but whenever I went to the forums I saw the writing on the wall.  There wasn't even rationale to their claims.  Some of their claims were self contradicting.
Here's an example;  I thought this was Star Wars, it's pokeman online "Everybody" is a CH and if you're not you can't pvp!!  NERF CH !!
Now wait- if "everybody" is a CH then wouldn't it be balanced? If everybody is a CH then how could one not be a CH?
Typical I can't win with my profession against (insert) their profession. 
It's like pvp'ers without a combat Doc or combat medic in their group.  You were doomed.  But nerf this or nerf that because you choose to not maximize your fighting power?
Remember the /citywarn, /cityban debacle?  I posted on the SOE forums that it was a completely player controlled issue to not get griefed this way.  It was very simple. CLONE at an NPC city!!!  I got flamed off the boards there that no it was an unstoppable griefing tool, rofl
I remember a day in UO when a friend and guildmate wanted so and so booted from the guild because he was standing at the healers repeat killing new rez's in faction fighting.
He actually told me, So and so killed me like 16 times in a row!!  I simply asked why would you repeat res in front of him and why didn't you just go to another healer?
His reply was, it's the closest healer and I wanted to get back ot the fight as fast as I could.   I then asked if running to the next healer would have been faster than getting res killed 16 times?
He said , That's not the point, he SHOULDN'T be doing that!!!
Many a Vet has taught a newer player tough lessons in PvP in all games.
But in some cases the so called griefed player WAS in control of the situation. 

---

 

Nothing you wrote here even remotely bolsters your argument. What players said is irrelevant to the equation: if players said stupid things, and SOE listened to them, that is SOE's fault.

Customers are never to blame for a business failure. That is an absurd position.
 

I'm not sure if I should call you a demeaning name that implies your lack of intelligence or ..........
 

So let's take the high road...

Does your opinion then prove the point that the Vet*H8r's had nothing to do with the decline of SWG?

Customers are one of the biggest aspects for a business, survival or failure.

My post was mostly into reply to MikeMB's post about UO. 

But honestly anyone who denies these things didn't happen within SWG and other mmorpg forums is well not in touch with reality.

I just can't understand the Vet*H8r contradiction of "WE WON" Our relentless posts on game forums have swayed the gaming industry, but yet the very vocal SWG forum players posts have/had no effect on anything that had to do with game changes....  

 Its never the customers fault and the customer is always right. The down fall lays on the shoulders of SOE and lucas arts alone -poor implimentation of a game and poor management of a game.

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Originally posted by Moaky07
If you have to ask Wolf, you either havent been following the vet brds...or you didnt read the thread.
 
Everything is self evident.
 
And Fish... for the record...you took a strawman and run with it. I knew if I threw up a distraction, you would miss it entirely.
 
My stated position was that a section of the vet population has a bad rep. It added to why folks didnt wanna play SWG. You tried to turn it into a "I stand by SOE" or "it doesnt matter cause I said so"....which is not contained in my posts. I gave far majority credit to SOE/LA for their part.
I pointed out negatives about a segment of the vet population...and you offered nothing besides how "great" you are.
I know I know...there is a special Fish gets a second chance "get out of jail" squared...to the third degree with honors type rule thing. Please quote it for us...then respond to my actual statements this time.
 
Vanity...it is some individual's downfall. Next time... stick to the post before you put your shoulder out of socket from "patting yourself on the back" or "front... or whatever it is you masters do.
And as I said before....have a great day cause I dont think things could be peachier around MMORPG AFAIAC.
O and for my long time fan out there, who has made a habit the last 2 yrs of attempting to get me banned...I got last nights warning you submitted rescinded. I see you arent posting today....guess you werent so lucky.
Next time ,might wanna not report me, when you are the one throwing specific insults a persons way. :)

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You're still no making any sense at all.

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Originally posted by Jatwhal

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Originally posted by Fishermage

 

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Originally posted by Jatwhal
MikeMB. Yep I was there and am still there.  I'm a Fellucan pvp'er since launch.  But I'm on the good side of it.  Never played a red char was always the pk hunter...
Again I think it was a combination of things but it puzzles me (well not really I know it's blind hatred) that the Vet*H8rs don't recall it.
Maybe it was because they were inexperienced mmorpg players and the "I can't win" people but whenever I went to the forums I saw the writing on the wall.  There wasn't even rationale to their claims.  Some of their claims were self contradicting.
Here's an example;  I thought this was Star Wars, it's pokeman online "Everybody" is a CH and if you're not you can't pvp!!  NERF CH !!
Now wait- if "everybody" is a CH then wouldn't it be balanced? If everybody is a CH then how could one not be a CH?
Typical I can't win with my profession against (insert) their profession. 
It's like pvp'ers without a combat Doc or combat medic in their group.  You were doomed.  But nerf this or nerf that because you choose to not maximize your fighting power?
Remember the /citywarn, /cityban debacle?  I posted on the SOE forums that it was a completely player controlled issue to not get griefed this way.  It was very simple. CLONE at an NPC city!!!  I got flamed off the boards there that no it was an unstoppable griefing tool, rofl
I remember a day in UO when a friend and guildmate wanted so and so booted from the guild because he was standing at the healers repeat killing new rez's in faction fighting.
He actually told me, So and so killed me like 16 times in a row!!  I simply asked why would you repeat res in front of him and why didn't you just go to another healer?
His reply was, it's the closest healer and I wanted to get back ot the fight as fast as I could.   I then asked if running to the next healer would have been faster than getting res killed 16 times?
He said , That's not the point, he SHOULDN'T be doing that!!!
Many a Vet has taught a newer player tough lessons in PvP in all games.
But in some cases the so called griefed player WAS in control of the situation. 

---

 
Nothing you wrote here even remotely bolsters your argument. What players said is irrelevant to the equation: if players said stupid things, and SOE listened to them, that is SOE's fault.
Customers are never to blame for a business failure. That is an absurd position.
 

---

I'm not sure if I should call you a demeaning name that implies your lack of intelligence or ..........
 
So let's take the high road...
Does your opinion then prove the point that the Vet*H8r's had nothing to do with the decline of SWG?
Customers are one of the biggest aspects for a business, survival or failure.
My post was mostly into reply to MikeMB's post about UO. 
But honestly anyone who denies these things didn't happen within SWG and other mmorpg forums is well not in touch with reality.
I just can't understand the Vet*H8r contradiction of "WE WON" Our relentless posts on game forums have swayed the gaming industry, but yet the very vocal SWG forum players posts have/had no effect on anything that had to do with game changes....  

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man you guys are just not making any sense at all; looks like the Bioware/EA news has caused a lot of folks to truly become unhinged.

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Originally posted by Elowyn
 Its never the customers fault and the customer is always right. The down fall lays on the shoulders of SOE and lucas arts alone -poor implimentation of a game and poor management of a game.

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Here we go. Thanks for making sense out of the nonsense being thrown about here!

I enjoyed SWG before the NGE.  I did not afterwards, so I do not play anymore.  Current players enjoy the game, hence that is why they are still playing.  I disagree with how SOE changed the game.  But, the way I show my dislike, is I choose to play something else.  Get over it people, I have.  Don't play SWG if you don't like it, and leave the people who enjoy the game the hell alone.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Jatwhal

 

Well let's blame it on the players, Lucas Arts and accountants. 

 

I honestly have to say that somewhere someone or a group of "non designers" were calling the shots.

Anyone who knows George Lucas' history of his tight grip on everything "Star Wars" (rightly so) can easily understand that he was more than likely "at the helm" of SWG.  

 

SWG started off with some of the greatest MMORPG "minds and talent" in the industry.   If anyone ever read some of their original plans/goals they can see where they completely compromised or had their design compromised after they left.

 

The leaving of these devs and the continual in and out of others makes one think of the possible conflicts that were ongoing with LA.

 

I've played since launch and I could probably find some of the posts from Devs about how rare Jedi were going to be and how hard it was going to be to play them. 

 

Can anyone say character perma-death!!

 

I think some bean counters went onto the SWG forums and without MMORPG game forum experience saw all the "whiners" posts.

 

Anyone who has been around knows game forums attract the whiny people who have more forum time than game time. 

 

I honestly believe that SWG attracted a large portion of Star Wars fans that weren't "gamers".

 

These gamers came to SWG to play Jedi and yes other professions but let's face it the "Master Replicas" is in the lightsaber memorabilia business, WalMart sold tons of lightsabers with the new movies, not blasters and power hammers.

 

Everyone remember "I want Jedi to be rare ,except for my account?"  Sure you do, you all claim to be glorious SWG vets.

 

That post held so true for the SW fans and even some of the gamer "elitists" who relish accomplishments over other players.

 

That was the first pressure from the players base....

 

Most of those posts were about how hard it was to figure out how to become a Jedi. 

Even though all the press had told them it would be hard they still complained and wanted it "rare, except for their account" while the rest of us were ingame working on it.  

 

Shoot, the game population(me included) was so slow that the devs had to give us hints. That was my first clue they were giving into the whiners. 

 

Then when those people got their Jedi they whined about the finality of their characters life. So there went perma death, then visibility, then open pvp!

 

Now who's to blame for that?  Think rationally now.  It started with the player base.  " I want Jedi, Jedi is too hard, stop the forced pvp."  While we "gamers" were in game trying to avoid perma death, visibility, loving the rarity and hardcoreness of our profession those others were the very vocal populace on the SOE forums getting listened to by ???? The devs? Lucas Arts? SOE?   

 

All the press told us what it was going to be like to play a Jedi yet those types got into the game and then flooded the forums till Jedi got nerfed to crap. 

Imagine what this game would be like if just those things had stayed in place with Jedi.  

 

Jedi was designed for the "hardcore" and only the hardcore would have stuck with it. 

 

As for the arguement of timeline- give me a break. First off lose your console mentality.  This is an MMORPG there is no "end game" there is no time "lock".   It's a forward moving world.

 

I once posted to those same whiners, then delete your Jedi if you are so thoroughly convicted to "canon".

Guess how many did?

 

Well somewhere some non gamer geek said all our models from Everquest and Everquest2 show that players like to have things handed to them. WoW's success proves these theories to be true so we need to change SWG to those styles.  

 

Well we all know how wrong they were now. 

It sure did drive subscriptions....away

 

I recently read somewhere on a forum about someone complaining about some game's interface and the reply was "it's the basic WoW interface, the industry standard. It's what all MMORPG's will use.

 

How boring is that?

 

Well I tried to play WoW at launch and 2 more times since. I never lasted more than a couple of weeks. 

 

I'm an mmorpg player, not a "console player online"

 

I've played Ultima online since launch and the only other mmorpg that I've kept playing in 10 years is SWG.    *EQ2 doesn't count since I only play that because my wife likes it* rolleyes:

Let's see now players, accountants, LucasArts.  Whose missing from this equation?  Oh yeah, SOE.  It must be everyone's fault but theirs, even though their development team came up with the NGE.  Yes, I think I see where you're coming from -_^.  I think most of the people that read these forums will also get your drift.
 

World of Warcraft has never had a combat revamp since the game launched thats what slowed swg's growth to a crawl ,not Jedi. I do believe the whiners had a little to do with it,but all in all it was the fact SOE and Lucas Arts both made bad decisions in the direction of the game,but I am now playing swg again and I am enjoying it and I see new players daily returning to the game its not in a downward spiral anymore its growing slowly.