Second Life

Originally posted by Lydon

 We'll all agree that World of Warcraft is a game, right? Now chatting is one of the features of gameplay.

The ability to communicate with other players in the game is one of the features of the game. Its not the focus of the game.

Let me put it to you this way: If I install a washing machine in your car does it cease to be a car? No, it doesn't. Because the primary function of the car is still to travel between point A and point B.

By the same token: If you have a washing machine in your car does that make it a laundromat? No, because it would still lack many of the requirements to qualify as a laundromat (such as a dryer and the ability to serve many customers at once).

WoW is a game because its primary function is that of a game, you play it. It may have some similar features to that of a chat room but that doesn't make it a chat room.

Second Life is a chat room because its primary function is that of a chat room, chatting. Yes, it may have the ability to be modified by the users to mimic some of the features of a game, but that doesn't nullify its original function. And it doesn't change the fact that reguardless of what you call it, the majority of the people using the service aren't treating it as a game, they treat it as a chat room (by doing the things that people would do in a chat room such as yelling at each other, acting crazy and having cyber sex).

Originally posted by Lydon

I'd be very interested to find out exactly what you consider to be a game. Is it questing? Killing mobs? What exactly is it? It sounds to me as if you've got the typical generic MMO in mind and don't quite grasp the concept of a sandbox MMO.

Second Life may fit the description of a "Sandbox" and it may fit the description of an "MMO" but that doesn't make it a game.

My idea of a "Sandbox MMOG" would be a game like Darkfall where the emphasis is not on leveling or questing but on PvP combat, building player owned cities and developemt of the storyline of the game (which the players would have the control of). Of course I realise that Darkfall is just vaporware but many other games have tried a similar strategy. Shadowbane had the exact same concept, the developers were just incompetent liars and the game never worked right. One of the early descriptions of Horizions described it as having a similar style with alot of hardcore roleplaying rules, player owned cities and perma-death. I'm not sure what the hell happened to that game because it has none of those things anymore as far as I'm aware. EvE Online has some of the features of a Sandbox as players can and do start their own factions in the game to take control of various parts of space by building space staions and mining resources.

We have yet to see a really good Sandbox GAME made. Most attempts have been failures which is why so many developers refuse to try to develop such games anymore. Until someone invents the holodeck from Star Trek I don't think we will have the technology to make a true sandbox game a reality.

Second Life may behave like a (very buggy and easily abused) Sandbox, but its still a LONG way away from being a game.

It's the ultimate sandbox MMO with a crafting that can help you get a job in RL.

Originally posted by Raltar  

The ability to communicate with other players in the game is one of the features of the game. Its not the focus of the game.

Let me put it to you this way: If I install a washing machine in your car does it cease to be a car? No, it doesn't. Because the primary function of the car is still to travel between point A and point B.

By the same token: If you have a washing machine in your car does that make it a laundromat? No, because it would still lack many of the requirements to qualify as a laundromat (such as a dryer and the ability to serve many customers at once).

WoW is a game because its primary function is that of a game, you play it. It may have some similar features to that of a chat room but that doesn't make it a chat room.

Second Life is a chat room because its primary function is that of a chat room, chatting. Yes, it may have the ability to be modified by the users to mimic some of the features of a game, but that doesn't nullify its original function. And it doesn't change the fact that reguardless of what you call it, the majority of the people using the service aren't treating it as a game, they treat it as a chat room (by doing the things that people would do in a chat room such as yelling at each other, acting crazy and having cyber sex).

I never said that it is the focus of gameplay, but it is a part of gameplay. No matter how big a part it plays, it still plays a part.

Now let's use your washing machine example. As unrealistic as it is, if you install a washing machine in your car you obviously have some intent to use it, correct? Then the primary focus may be for the car to take you from point A to B still, but it's secondary purpose is to do your laundry. Just because it's a car that drives you from one point to another does that change the fact that it has a washing machine installed in it? No. That's no regular car, it's a multipurpose vehicle.

Secondly, a large portion of the SL community are developers. The majority of the game is created by them. It is not advertised as a simply chat room - the appeal is that you can do what you want, when you want. It's a pure sandbox MMO.

Originally posted by Raltar  

Originally posted by Lydon

I'd be very interested to find out exactly what you consider to be a game. Is it questing? Killing mobs? What exactly is it? It sounds to me as if you've got the typical generic MMO in mind and don't quite grasp the concept of a sandbox MMO.

My idea of a "Sandbox MMOG" would be a game like Darkfall where the emphasis is not on leveling or questing but on PvP combat, building player owned cities and developemt of the storyline of the game (which the players would have the control of). Of course I realise that Darkfall is just vaporware but many other games have tried a similar strategy. Shadowbane had the exact same concept, the developers were just incompetent liars and the game never worked right. One of the early descriptions of Horizions described it as having a similar style with alot of hardcore roleplaying rules, player owned cities and perma-death. I'm not sure what the hell happened to that game because it has none of those things anymore as far as I'm aware. EvE Online has some of the features of a Sandbox as players can and do start their own factions in the game to take control of various parts of space by building space staions and mining resources.

Exactly. That's your description of a sandbox MMO.  It's most definitely not mine as you use the word "emphasis," meaning you still want the game to encourage you in a general direction. I consider a sandbox MMO to allow me to do whatever I want. Should I wish to craft and trade, I should be allowed to - both features that are present in Second Life.

Originally posted by Lydon

Just because it's a car that drives you from one point to another does that change the fact that it has a washing machine installed in it? No. That's no regular car, it's a multipurpose vehicle.

You could call the car from my analogy a "multipurpose vehicle" and that may even be an accurate statement but that doesn't nullify my analogy, it merely ignores the key point of the analogy.

Your car may be able to do your laundry because it has a washing machine in it but it still doesn't qualify as a laundromat because it is still lacking many of the features required to qualify as a laundromat. This is the point of the entire analogy because Second Life has the same issue. It may have some features in common with an MMOG but it doesn't have enough to actually qualify as an MMOG. Just look at the way you guys keep calling it a "Sandbox MMO" but not an MMOG. Thats because even you can see its missing the game part.

Some of the users of SL may have modified parts of the world to have a few basic features of a game, but that doesn't make SL itself a game any more than having a washing machine in your car makes the entire car a laundromat. At best you could claim that very small parts of the Second Life "Metaverse" are being used as a game, in the same sense that parts of your car are being used to do your laundry. But that doesn't make Second Life itself a GAME which is what this debate is about.

Originally posted by Raltar

Originally posted by Lydon

Just because it's a car that drives you from one point to another does that change the fact that it has a washing machine installed in it? No. That's no regular car, it's a multipurpose vehicle.

You could call the car from my analogy a "multipurpose vehicle" and that may even be an accurate statement but that doesn't nullify my analogy, it merely ignores the key point of the analogy.

Your car may be able to do your laundry because it has a washing machine in it but it still doesn't qualify as a laundromat because it is still lacking many of the features required to qualify as a laundromat. This is the point of the entire analogy because Second Life has the same issue. It may have some features in common with an MMOG but it doesn't have enough to actually qualify as an MMOG. Just look at the way you guys keep calling it a "Sandbox MMO" but not an MMOG. Thats because even you can see its missing the game part.

Some of the users of SL may have modified parts of the world to have a few basic features of a game, but that doesn't make SL itself a game any more than having a washing machine in your car makes the entire car a laundromat. At best you could claim that very small parts of the Second Life "Metaverse" are being used as a game, in the same sense that parts of your car are being used to do your laundry. But that doesn't make Second Life itself a GAME which is what this debate is about.

 

Firstly, the reason we call it an MMO (at least for me) is because I cba to type "MMORPG" every time.

Moving on...your analogy simply does not compare the two well at all. You're assuming that everyone needs all of the features of a laundromat in order to do their laundry. The person with the car + washing machine combo can do their laundry just as well as someone who uses a full-on laundromat, they just go about doing it differently. Instead of using the tumble-dryer they could hang their washing out to dry. Either way the end result is: laundry has been done! So what you're stating is that because the SL creators haven't said to their users "we have laid out everything for you and this is how you will do your laundry," that players can't do their laundry...

In the end, my little friend named The Dictionary will sort this out easily:

Video game (noun) -any or various games played using a microcomputer with a keyboard and often joysticks to manipulate changes or respond to the action or questions on the screen.

That's exactly what SL is. Case closed.

Originally posted by Lydon

In the end, my little friend named The Dictionary will sort this out easily:

Video game (noun) -any or various games played using a microcomputer with a keyboard and often joysticks to manipulate changes or respond to the action or questions on the screen.

That's exactly what SL is. Case closed. 

LOL, case closed eh? By that definition you just handed the arguement to me because you can't run Second Life on a microcomputer!

Clearly whatever dictionary you got this from consdiers a "video game" to be the type of game you would play on a console style system hooked up to your TV set as opposed to the modern software that we run on our home computers. Sorry bud, I don't think a book written by stuffy old people 20 some years ago can save you today.

Originally posted by Lydon

Moving on...your analogy simply does not compare the two well at all.

Fair enough, it was a rather far-fetched concept. So I'll hit you up with not just one but TWO new scenarios I thought of while waiting for your brilliant dictionary maneuver.

Scenario #1:

Lets take an MMORPG like Asheron's Call. Remove ALL the players from the game and revert the software back to its original condition as of the date it was first released to the public. The game is now in a totally pristine condition: There are no player-owned houses and no updates to the game from the developers beyond what they originally intended for the world to look like.

Now, allow ONE PERSON to enter that world. Is he playing a game? Yes, he is. Because Asheron's Call was designed as a game and had all of the features of a game at the time of its inception. It did not need to be modified or altered in any way to become a game. It IS a game.

Lets repeat this process with Second Life. Remove all the "residents" from the "metaverse" ane revert the "metaverse" itself to the condition it was in when Second Life was first released to the public. There are no user created objects or enviroments in the "metaverse" any longer, only those objects and enviroments which Linden Labs added to the world.

Now, allow ONE PERSON to enter the "metaverse" that Linden Labs has created. Is this person playing a game? No, he isn't. The current "metaverse" does not have the features of a game because in its original condition as invisioned by Linden Labs those features did not yet exist.

So, as we can see here, Second Life was NOT designed by Liden Labs to fulfill the function or purpose of a game the way that an actual MMOG is.

Scenario #2:

Lets take a single-player game like Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. We know this is a game.

Now, lets allow someone to modify the game. Lets say this person decides that he likes the graphics of the game but hates the combat. This person decides that hes going to create a mod to remove all combat from the game as well as leveling, falling damage, monsters, spells and nearly every other feature of the game. He is however going to allow players to alter the appearance of their character any way they want. Then hes going to allow multiple people to enter the same world at the same time. Lastly, hes going to create a chat interface so the players can send text-based messages to each other.

What we have now is a mod that effectively transforms Oblivion into a chat room with high tech graphics. And there isn't anything wrong with that. Maybe there are folks out there who would enjoy this mod for role playing purposes.

By merit of the fact that this mod exists, does Oblivion itself (in its original unmodified state) cease to be a game? No, it doesn't. Just because some guy made a mod that changed the game into a chat room doesn't mean that I can't still use the original version of the software as a game.

Now, lets reverse this scenario for Second Life. Due to the results of Scenario #1 we already know that Second Life (in its original unmodified state) is a piece of software which does NOT meet the definition of a game.

But lets say we release thousands of people in the "metaverse" of Second Life. A few of them decide to modify small parts of the game world to resemble a game. They allow a small number of people at one time to enter a limited area and whack each other with swords. After a certain number of wacks from a sword a person "dies" and is teleported to another part of the "metaverse" where their sword doesn't function.

By merit of the fact that this small group of players altered a small portion of the "metaverse" to resemble a "game" of a sort, does that change the entire piece of software into a game? No, it doesn't. Because that still isn't the primary function of the software, nor does it change the fact that the majority of users of that software are not using it as a game.

Thus, Second Life, even after being modified by its users, still DOES NOT qualify as a game.

And here is the bottom line: Second Life is not a game because the original software as designed by its original creators was not a game and cannot be used as such. Any piece of software can be reasonably altered to preform a function its original creators did not intend for it to fulfill. But that doesn't alter the function of the original software.

And the original creators of Second Life (Linden Labs) state quite clearly on their own website that Second Life is a "Metaverse" and NOT a game. If you can find me even one example of Linden Labs officially and clearly calling Second Life a game then I will take back everything I have said and concede this debate to you. But until that happens Second Life is unarguably NOT a game.