Originally posted by SquidvsBear

The WARHAMMER IP is so expansive. There is so much content to be drawn from it...How and/or why should we expect it to be "complete' at launch? Its in the nature of any respectable MMO to NEVER be complete until its offline. Patches and expansion packs will be made, so just chill.

Well said I was just about to post the same sentiment the whole point of an MMO is it never ends even with "End Game" content.

Originally posted by bverji

Originally posted by Ascension08

Originally posted by bverji

Cabe2323 a beta is not meant for the type of changes that have been announced. These type of changes this late in the development is a signifier that something is extremly wrong on many levels.Again this is the common argument about a game ready to be released into the dumpster and it's a foolish, clueless argument.

Oh a Beta isn't meant for these types of changes huh? So what is, an Alpha? Haha, yeah, when everything's basically still on paper and it looks good. That's really the time to change it.

 

 

The paper stage is not the ALPHA. When the game is being conceptualized and the engine developed it's in pre-production or pre-ALPHA. The ALPHA is when a working code is being placed . The Alpha phase includes a lot of testing and after being decide that the game is COMPLETE it goes to beta. BETA is the stage of deveolpment when the usability testing is being done. The beta is used to test for malfunctions and balance. The beta is not where the game conception is supposed to be changed. If this is needed basically the game is set back 2/3 of its production.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_stage#Pre-alpha

Originally posted by Capn23

Originally posted by bverji

Yes because if there are 3 stages to production and it goes back to the beginning of the 2nd stage that would make 2/3 a random number. I agree that the production time doesn't really mean anything, but you totally miss the point. The game isn't even ready to be in beta. They are piecing together a game; what are the chances that's going to work out well? I don't care if people play it or not. All I'm saying is don't ignore the patterns the game is following and jump in with both feet. The concerns people have are legitimate.

 

are you in beta?

Given the conversation what does that have to do with anything? If the game is making changes that should of been solid in Alpha...it's not ready for beta. 3 doesn't become before 2. I don't need to listen to someone count to know that.

Originally posted by bverji

 

  The paper stage is not the ALPHA. When the game is being conceptualized and the engine developed it's in pre-production or pre-ALPHA. The ALPHA is when a working code is being placed . The Alpha phase includes a lot of testing and after being decide that the game is COMPLETE it goes to beta. BETA is the stage of deveolpment when the usability testing is being done. The beta is used to test for malfunctions and balance. The beta is not where the game conception is supposed to be changed. If this is needed basically the game is set back 2/3 of its production.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_stage#Pre-alpha

 

Given the conversation what does that have to do with anything? If the game is making changes that should of been solid in Alpha...it's not ready for beta. 3 doesn't become before 2. I don't need to listen to someone count to know that.

Wiki as a source, LOL.   You DO know that's what people THINK beta is, right?

Mythic isn't making any game changing changes.  All the core elements are still there, and in place.  They removed 4 classes that weren't ready for release, and 4 cities that weren't anywhere close.

Beta is the final stage of making sure everything is ready for launch, as in bugs, working features, etc.  The 4 cities and classes weren't ready for launch, so they pulled them to polish them up for after launch.  All Alpha is, is a working version of the game that CAN be played.

If you've EVER played an MMO beta, or any type of beta for that matter, you'd know that major changes can and do take place during that stage of development.  That's what beta is for.  Beta is alpha, except more polished and (usually) open to more people to test the features available for changes.  I've never participated in an alpha (Or, the stage.  I've beta tested some things that seemed to still be in alpha, lol.) but I've participated in many betas, and I for one know how much and easily things change during it.

Originally posted by bverji

 

 

Originally posted by Capn23

Originally posted by bverji

Yes because if there are 3 stages to production and it goes back to the beginning of the 2nd stage that would make 2/3 a random number. I agree that the production time doesn't really mean anything, but you totally miss the point. The game isn't even ready to be in beta. They are piecing together a game; what are the chances that's going to work out well? I don't care if people play it or not. All I'm saying is don't ignore the patterns the game is following and jump in with both feet. The concerns people have are legitimate.

 

are you in beta?

Given the conversation what does that have to do with anything? If the game is making changes that should of been solid in Alpha...it's not ready for beta. 3 doesn't become before 2. I don't need to listen to someone count to know that.

Sorry a wiki link pretty much doesn't help your case at all especially when it comes to game design.  Take a couple of courses and learn to make a game..come back and tell me again that Alpha is when things are final and I'll STILL damn laugh at you.   MMOS are techincally NEVER finished thats why they're an Online Game with labels of "content may change during gameplay" on the box for every single one.   Even for Single Player offline games alot of things can change the only difference is players aren't needed for testing Single Player games so we never KNOW of the changes.  With MMOs the community is heavily involved with the Beta Stages thus things the Dev's thought were cool are NOT necessarily cool with the players. 

Like the decision for keeps.  Originally Keeps were NOT part of the plan.  THey were Fubaring open world PvP completely except for end game.  After the Beta Testers got a hold of this ... well thank god for those early testers.  The Dev's went back to the drawing board on Open RvR & Keeps and guess what? Now we have Keeps & Fortresses in Open RvR areas to fight over.

Thats the thing about Games...games start on paper...once they hit production things that sounded great on paper aren't so great or don't work at all so guess what..it gets redesigned.  Sometimes you can get past the alpha stage and something still just doesn't work the way you want it too or tester feed back is that its completely boring and the general concensus is "its a sucky unnnecessary feature" or its "subpar" to the rest of the game..guess what..it comes out.   Some companies dont' give a damn what testers say other than bug reports so sucky ass features & content tend to stay in the game.  These games get labeled crap in the end by the gaming community.

Beta is still a heavy production & continuing design phase especially for MMOs.   MMOs have no final design phase, thats the beauty of online games you can keep designing and adding new ro better things or new places or new items.    You can't do that with a static game, maybe you can toss in an add on or two but its not the same as an MMO expansion.

Even WoW did a 180 between its Alpha & Beta stages.   Originally it was supposed to be a story based online game they were only going to run for 2 years.  Well the overwhelming numbers of players once it went live pretty much changed that.   What would of been a 2 year long storyline kinda like Lord of the Rings but with an ending..became a constant permant world.  That was NOT part of the alpha design at all.

Game Developers that can't be flexible & fast on their feet to make a changes for the better (sometimes the worst in our opinion) isn't going to be in the industry for long.  If Beta testers say something sucks wind for 2 years and the devs ignore it because its not Alpha anymore...well...go ask the AoC people who are angry right now...how that worked out for them.

I used wiki because it was the easiest to access on the web. Did you actualy read it or just scoffing at the source?  It is very consistent with other sources and provide sources in which the information was derived from. I also can provide other sources with the same information. While certainly changes are going to be made during beta these are extreme changes for a game in beta with a 4 moth release date. I'm going to mark this and when WAR come out with a thud show how foolish you were. this game is either getting pushed back another year or going to be underwelming (like AOC)  and I can predict that, like I have other games, based upon the changes they are doing in beta.

I agree it is too close to release for drastic changes to be occuring unless they knew months in advance that this was the course to take.

Originally posted by banthis

Originally posted by bverji

 

 

Originally posted by Capn23

Originally posted by bverji

Yes because if there are 3 stages to production and it goes back to the beginning of the 2nd stage that would make 2/3 a random number. I agree that the production time doesn't really mean anything, but you totally miss the point. The game isn't even ready to be in beta. They are piecing together a game; what are the chances that's going to work out well? I don't care if people play it or not. All I'm saying is don't ignore the patterns the game is following and jump in with both feet. The concerns people have are legitimate.

 

are you in beta?

Given the conversation what does that have to do with anything? If the game is making changes that should of been solid in Alpha...it's not ready for beta. 3 doesn't become before 2. I don't need to listen to someone count to know that.

 

Sorry a wiki link pretty much doesn't help your case at all especially when it comes to game design.  Take a couple of courses and learn to make a game..come back and tell me again that Alpha is when things are final and I'll STILL damn laugh at you.   MMOS are techincally NEVER finished thats why they're an Online Game with labels of "content may change during gameplay" on the box for every single one.   Even for Single Player offline games alot of things can change the only difference is players aren't needed for testing Single Player games so we never KNOW of the changes.  With MMOs the community is heavily involved with the Beta Stages thus things the Dev's thought were cool are NOT necessarily cool with the players. 

Like the decision for keeps.  Originally Keeps were NOT part of the plan.  THey were Fubaring open world PvP completely except for end game.  After the Beta Testers got a hold of this ... well thank god for those early testers.  The Dev's went back to the drawing board on Open RvR & Keeps and guess what? Now we have Keeps & Fortresses in Open RvR areas to fight over.

Thats the thing about Games...games start on paper...once they hit production things that sounded great on paper aren't so great or don't work at all so guess what..it gets redesigned.  Sometimes you can get past the alpha stage and something still just doesn't work the way you want it too or tester feed back is that its completely boring and the general concensus is "its a sucky unnnecessary feature" or its "subpar" to the rest of the game..guess what..it comes out.   Some companies dont' give a damn what testers say other than bug reports so sucky ass features & content tend to stay in the game.  These games get labeled crap in the end by the gaming community.

Beta is still a heavy production & continuing design phase especially for MMOs.   MMOs have no final design phase, thats the beauty of online games you can keep designing and adding new ro better things or new places or new items.    You can't do that with a static game, maybe you can toss in an add on or two but its not the same as an MMO expansion.

Even WoW did a 180 between its Alpha & Beta stages.   Originally it was supposed to be a story based online game they were only going to run for 2 years.  Well the overwhelming numbers of players once it went live pretty much changed that.   What would of been a 2 year long storyline kinda like Lord of the Rings but with an ending..became a constant permant world.  That was NOT part of the alpha design at all.

Game Developers that can't be flexible & fast on their feet to make a changes for the better (sometimes the worst in our opinion) isn't going to be in the industry for long.  If Beta testers say something sucks wind for 2 years and the devs ignore it because its not Alpha anymore...well...go ask the AoC people who are angry right now...how that worked out for them.

Couldn't agree more.  Sum it up in one line :  It might look great on paper, but when it's in the game it might not work as intended.

That said, nothing drastic has changed.  The classes weren't a drastic change, neither were the cities.  A loss, yes, and it sucks, but it's not that drastic.

I read the wiki, and like I said, it's obviously what people think.  You avoided the beta question you was asked earlier, saying it has nothing to do with it.  It does.  If you've been through betas, you'd know what is stated in that wiki is complete BS.  It's wrong about alpha and beta.

And when you have a game that has been in closed beta as long as WAR has, things are bound to change.  Closed beta is meant for drastic changes like that.  Granted, I'll give you nothing major should change in open beta.  Open beta is the bug squashing stage, CB is still getting features in and tweaking them.

Originally posted by Tee312

Originally posted by banthis

Originally posted by bverji

 

 

Originally posted by Capn23

 

 

Couldn't agree more.  Sum it up in one line :  It might look great on paper, but when it's in the game it might not work as intended.

That said, nothing drastic has changed.  The classes weren't a drastic change, neither were the cities.  A loss, yes, and it sucks, but it's not that drastic.

I read the wiki, and like I said, it's obviously what people think.  You avoided the beta question you was asked earlier, saying it has nothing to do with it.  It does.  If you've been through betas, you'd know what is stated in that wiki is complete BS.  It's wrong about alpha and beta.

And when you have a game that has been in closed beta as long as WAR has, things are bound to change.  Closed beta is meant for drastic changes like that.  Granted, I'll give you nothing major should change in open beta.  Open beta is the bug squashing stage, CB is still getting features in and tweaking them.

I have played Muds as long as you have been alive and know I have experinced more beta's then you. I can tell you with certainty, that the games that more closely follow the model given are more successful.
 

Originally posted by bverji

Originally posted by Tee312

Originally posted by banthis

Originally posted by bverji

 

 

Originally posted by Capn23

 

 

Couldn't agree more.  Sum it up in one line :  It might look great on paper, but when it's in the game it might not work as intended.

That said, nothing drastic has changed.  The classes weren't a drastic change, neither were the cities.  A loss, yes, and it sucks, but it's not that drastic.

I read the wiki, and like I said, it's obviously what people think.  You avoided the beta question you was asked earlier, saying it has nothing to do with it.  It does.  If you've been through betas, you'd know what is stated in that wiki is complete BS.  It's wrong about alpha and beta.

And when you have a game that has been in closed beta as long as WAR has, things are bound to change.  Closed beta is meant for drastic changes like that.  Granted, I'll give you nothing major should change in open beta.  Open beta is the bug squashing stage, CB is still getting features in and tweaking them.

I have played Muds as long as you have been alive and know I have experinced more beta's then you. I can tell you with certainty, that the games that more closely follow the model given are more successful.
 

You can say that with absolute certainty huh?  You know me that well?

Well I can tell you with absolute certainty that the wiki link you posted isn't always what happens, rarely actually.  You want to tell me a game that has been in CB, closed the CB to mess with features, and then reopened in CB (months and months of CB) is ALL for testing the features in the game?

If you believe that, that's pretty foolish of you.  OB is for stress testing and the final polish.  Finding the bugs, that's why theres a lot of people, so they find bugs that wouldn't always show up.  CB is for the core features, adding and removing.

All Alpha is, is a playable version of the game.  A lot of stuff doesn't work in Alpha, but the game will play.  That is where a lot of the development is still happening, but when they add in more people (Beta) and get more opinions, things will change.  Large and small.

I don't know, or care, how many betas or alphas you've been in.  I've been in betas for more than just MMOs, I know how it works.  I know features will be added and changed.

Still missing my other point, nothing drastic has changed.  So, they cut 4 classes?  Not a huge deal, people will either find another class or wait for new classes.  The cities are a bigger deal, but they're coming in after launch, we're not losing the contact, it's just compacted into two cities instead of six.

Originally posted by bverji

I used wiki because it was the easiest to access on the web. Did you actually read it or just scoffing at the source?  It is very consistent with other sources and provide sources in which the information was derived from. I also can provide other sources with the same information. While certainly changes are going to be made during beta these are extreme changes for a game in beta with a 4 moth release date. I'm going to mark this and when WAR come out with a thud show how foolish you were. this game is either getting pushed back another year or going to be underwelming (like AOC)  and I can predict that, like I have other games, based upon the changes they are doing in beta.

 Though I do not work for a gaming company I have worked in the software industry for over 10 years for several large companies that have gaming divisions.  But no two companies apply the development process the same. MMO's are fluid by design and I would imagine the game will change about 80% after the first 6 month's live being fluid they are going to have to adapt it based on live customer feed back but nothing will be fixed overnight. No MMO is ever finished keep in mind also Gameworkshop holds a tight nose on it's IP and they have high standards to be held and if they are not met then the IP could be at risk ultimately  I think that the new system of rotations is a smart move and all this content will be back in game with in the 6 to 12 months

 

Still missing my other point, nothing drastic has changed.  So, they cut 4 classes?  Not a huge deal, people will either find another class or wait for new classes.  The cities are a bigger deal, but they're coming in after launch, we're not losing the contact, it's just compacted into two cities instead of six.

This just shows your inexperience. Cutting 4 classes totally changes the dynamic of how the game plays. The game was designed with those classes in mind. As was all the content. Everytime you have a team now they will always be missing an important element.

Originally posted by bverji

 

Still missing my other point, nothing drastic has changed.  So, they cut 4 classes?  Not a huge deal, people will either find another class or wait for new classes.  The cities are a bigger deal, but they're coming in after launch, we're not losing the contact, it's just compacted into two cities instead of six.

 

This just shows your inexperience. Cutting 4 classes totally changes the dynamic of how the game plays. The game was designed with those classes in mind. As was all the content. Everytime you have a team now they will always be missing an important element.

Shows my inexperience?  I don't have any experience with WAR, I'm not in WAR beta.  But you don't realize the ones complaining that 4 classes being removed being such a drastic change are a small minority.

They won;t be missing an important element.  If anything this encourages teams to take in other classes, instead of a constant tank and spank method.  If they want a tank, they'll find another tank.  It's not a drastic change, from my viewpoint.  Will it change things?  Sure.  But it's not going to make or break the game.  And if the classes are as underplayed as Mythic says they are, then it's going to effect it even less.

And yes, I'm not in WAR beta.  That doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about, because I have local friends that have been in beta since it came back up after the 2 week break.  And from what I've seen, all it has done is encourage more class diversity in group play.

Originally posted by Tuck2000

Originally posted by bverji

I used wiki because it was the easiest to access on the web. Did you actually read it or just scoffing at the source?  It is very consistent with other sources and provide sources in which the information was derived from. I also can provide other sources with the same information. While certainly changes are going to be made during beta these are extreme changes for a game in beta with a 4 moth release date. I'm going to mark this and when WAR come out with a thud show how foolish you were. this game is either getting pushed back another year or going to be underwelming (like AOC)  and I can predict that, like I have other games, based upon the changes they are doing in beta.

 Though I do not work for a gaming company I have worked in the software industry for over 10 years for several large companies that have gaming divisions.  But no two companies apply the development process the same. MMO's are fluid by design and I would imagine the game will change about 80% after the first 6 month's live being fluid they are going to have to adapt it based on live customer feed back but nothing will be fixed overnight. No MMO is ever finished keep in mind also Gameworkshop holds a tight nose on it's IP and they have high standards to be held and if they are not met then the IP could be at risk ultimately  I think that the new system of rotations is a smart move and all this content will be back in game with in the 6 to 12 months

I'm not saying that this is a carved in stone. I certainly realise that there is flexability. I;m saying what the point of these stages are. You have to take into consideration my original post was into response to someoen who said alpha was nothing more then a paper stage. That being said the increasing flexability of these stages haven't seem to help MMO developers. The point is, however, that the games who have made huge cuts right before release to squeeze in a dead line or didn't realise that content shouldn't of ever been included...haven't had good track records thus far.

Originally posted by bverji

 

Still missing my other point, nothing drastic has changed.  So, they cut 4 classes?  Not a huge deal, people will either find another class or wait for new classes.  The cities are a bigger deal, but they're coming in after launch, we're not losing the contact, it's just compacted into two cities instead of six.

 

This just shows your inexperience. Cutting 4 classes totally changes the dynamic of how the game plays. The game was designed with those classes in mind. As was all the content. Everytime you have a team now they will always be missing an important element.

From a PVP perspective some MMORPG's are dominated by melees while others are dominated by ranged avatars.

WAR seems to lean too much in favor of ranged currently but to early to say.

Originally posted by Hoplites

Originally posted by bverji

 

Still missing my other point, nothing drastic has changed.  So, they cut 4 classes?  Not a huge deal, people will either find another class or wait for new classes.  The cities are a bigger deal, but they're coming in after launch, we're not losing the contact, it's just compacted into two cities instead of six.

 

This just shows your inexperience. Cutting 4 classes totally changes the dynamic of how the game plays. The game was designed with those classes in mind. As was all the content. Everytime you have a team now they will always be missing an important element.

 

From a PVP perspective some MMORPG's are dominated by melees while others are dominated by ranged avatars.

WAR seems to lean too much in favor of ranged currently but to early to say.

maybe at the beginning, but they will eventually add 4 careers back in, whether they be the same ones or totally new ones.

Originally posted by Tee312

Originally posted by bverji

 

Still missing my other point, nothing drastic has changed.  So, they cut 4 classes?  Not a huge deal, people will either find another class or wait for new classes.  The cities are a bigger deal, but they're coming in after launch, we're not losing the contact, it's just compacted into two cities instead of six.

 

This just shows your inexperience. Cutting 4 classes totally changes the dynamic of how the game plays. The game was designed with those classes in mind. As was all the content. Everytime you have a team now they will always be missing an important element.

Shows my inexperience?  I don't have any experience with WAR, I'm not in WAR beta.  But you don't realize the ones complaining that 4 classes being removed being such a drastic change are a small minority.

They won;t be missing an important element.  If anything this encourages teams to take in other classes, instead of a constant tank and spank method.  If they want a tank, they'll find another tank.  It's not a drastic change, from my viewpoint.  Will it change things?  Sure.  But it's not going to make or break the game.  And if the classes are as underplayed as Mythic says they are, then it's going to effect it even less.

we will see a couple months after it release...like I said I bookmarked this thread adn I'll point out what you and bas had to say.

I have made my point and pretty sure that'll i'll be proven right. I usually hav a pretty open mind towards games but when I noticed these trends I have had avery good track record thus far of calling it when a game is in trouble..

Originally posted by bverji

Originally posted by Tee312

Originally posted by bverji

 

Still missing my other point, nothing drastic has changed.  So, they cut 4 classes?  Not a huge deal, people will either find another class or wait for new classes.  The cities are a bigger deal, but they're coming in after launch, we're not losing the contact, it's just compacted into two cities instead of six.

 

This just shows your inexperience. Cutting 4 classes totally changes the dynamic of how the game plays. The game was designed with those classes in mind. As was all the content. Everytime you have a team now they will always be missing an important element.

Shows my inexperience?  I don't have any experience with WAR, I'm not in WAR beta.  But you don't realize the ones complaining that 4 classes being removed being such a drastic change are a small minority.

They won;t be missing an important element.  If anything this encourages teams to take in other classes, instead of a constant tank and spank method.  If they want a tank, they'll find another tank.  It's not a drastic change, from my viewpoint.  Will it change things?  Sure.  But it's not going to make or break the game.  And if the classes are as underplayed as Mythic says they are, then it's going to effect it even less.

 

we will see a couple months after it release...like I said I bookmarked this thread adn I'll point out what you and bas had to say.

I have made my point and pretty sure that'll i'll be proven right. I usually hav a pretty open mind towards games but when I noticed these trends I have had avery good track record thus far of calling it when a game is in trouble..

It that case, just about every MMO in history would be in trouble, even the great WoW. 

Originally posted by Capn23

Originally posted by Hoplites

Originally posted by bverji

 

Still missing my other point, nothing drastic has changed.  So, they cut 4 classes?  Not a huge deal, people will either find another class or wait for new classes.  The cities are a bigger deal, but they're coming in after launch, we're not losing the contact, it's just compacted into two cities instead of six.

 

This just shows your inexperience. Cutting 4 classes totally changes the dynamic of how the game plays. The game was designed with those classes in mind. As was all the content. Everytime you have a team now they will always be missing an important element.

 

From a PVP perspective some MMORPG's are dominated by melees while others are dominated by ranged avatars.

WAR seems to lean too much in favor of ranged currently but to early to say.

 

maybe at the beginning, but they will eventually add 4 careers back in, whether they be the same ones or totally new ones.

The problem with eventually adding classes in is the fact that the balance they were trying to build on with the existing classes could be disrupted with the introduction of these new classes being put in abruptly.  That is why expansions introducing new classes take so long to make becuase they can not be patched in over night without any thought.

Originally posted by Hoplites

Originally posted by Capn23

Originally posted by Hoplites

Originally posted by bverji

 

Still missing my other point, nothing drastic has changed.  So, they cut 4 classes?  Not a huge deal, people will either find another class or wait for new classes.  The cities are a bigger deal, but they're coming in after launch, we're not losing the contact, it's just compacted into two cities instead of six.

 

This just shows your inexperience. Cutting 4 classes totally changes the dynamic of how the game plays. The game was designed with those classes in mind. As was all the content. Everytime you have a team now they will always be missing an important element.

 

From a PVP perspective some MMORPG's are dominated by melees while others are dominated by ranged avatars.

WAR seems to lean too much in favor of ranged currently but to early to say.

 

maybe at the beginning, but they will eventually add 4 careers back in, whether they be the same ones or totally new ones.

 

The problem with eventually adding classes in is the fact that the balance they were trying to build on with the existing classes could be disrupted with the introduction of these new classes being put in abruptly.  That is why expansions introducing new classes take so long to make becuase they can not be patched in over night without any thought.

 

And the same is true about just removing them, but you can't tell him anything in 21 years he has learned everything there is to know about making games. He's compared WAR to WOWs batea twice now (with no facts) and he isn't even old enough to legally of been in WOWs beta.
 

I think people need to look at it this way after reading the classes again I think the problem is they had was the classes were to close in styles, example the Choppa and the Black Ork. I would guess the play style ended up being to close or the Choppa ending up under powered you need to have enough difference to make it playable if it released gimped and got owned then this forum would now be fill with ton's of threads bashing Mythic about putting a class in that sucks.

I myself wonder why Dwarf slayers are not in as playable yet as I would have preferred them to be one of the first classes. Keep in mind they have a whole lot more IP to add to this game overtime and they will need to have a defined balance system to make it smooth so I would rather have them do it prior to release then 3 months after.  As long as they keep the content coming we will all be fine.