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Originally posted by Venger
So overly dramatic.
I would say the golden age is coming. I was around during the your "golden age". It had its good and bad points. WoW came along and did so good because people thought that is what they wanted with their linear quest lines, easy leveling and very simplified crafting. It will counter balance itself to be something in between mind numbing old and super simplistic new.

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Interesting point, I feel pretty much the same way. I was around during the "glory days" of UO and EQ as well, and back then it had worse issues than you see in MMO's today. I think the reason why people try to glorify it is due to the fact that it was their first MMO and the fact that there weren't as many MMO's out there at the time, so you were kinda stuck with what you have. The twisted part of this scenario, was that they started accepting the idea of gaming becoming a second job. WoW pretty much did away with that and made playing MMO's fun again (IMO anyway, there are other MMO's out there I'm sure that don't feel like a second job, LOTRO comes to mind.)

Originally posted by Recant

I don't want another MMORPG to drain my life away.  EQ required stupid amounts of time to get anywhere.

So what, newer games have faster levels?  Levels in those games just determined how many times you had to kill the same type of mobs before you can move onto some slightly different mobs in a slightly different area with your really impressive +1 level.  Or at least that's how things were in the "good old days".   And easier?  Not really... sure.. more solo content so that you're not waiting for 5 hours to find a healer just so you can start to play.   Easier to actually to actually play the freaking game you're paying for.

People say newer MMORPGs are watered down,  but these "golden age" games were the ones with the stretched out grinds, fewer options, the harshest timesinks, and things designed just soak up your time.  The older games were the ones watered down.   Lets not kid ourselves, EQ wasn't a masterpiece, it was an accident.  SOE have never been renowned game developers, they made B-grade games which sparked because of the advent of broadband and 3D graphics cards.

It's only when a real game developer came along and actually delivered a product that gave players a gameplay experience, and not a glorified chatroom with a game made by server programmers.  It sold millions, reviewed better than any MMORPG has ever been received, and is hated by more people than any game has caused people to hate it.  They love to hate it. 

Blizzard make cartoony, highly stylized games, arcade like almost - fast and easy to learn, but with longevity.   If that's not your cup of tea, then Bethesda, Bioware, and whoever else now on the bandwagon - the REAL game developers - not a collection of programmers, will produce truly great games.

And sure you have the copy cats who see WoW and try to replicate it, but that happens in every genre.  The truly great MMORPGs are yet to come.   SOE, Mythic, Funcom - all crap at making games.   Their age of mediocracy is past.  Blizzard blew them away and showed them what real game developmet is all about.  Now that the game developers are making MMORPGs, we'll see some amazing stuff.

Of course if you want to be all pessimistic and broody thinking that you'll never be entertained by an MMO again, that's a valid point of view too I guess.

Few around here know me as a guy that loves old school Ultima Online.  Mainly because it's such a small portion of us around anymore.  When I play a MMO I usually, no wait, ALWAYS compare the game to UO.  I've pretty much tried ever game on the market.  Shame that I have not played old school SWG.  I started playing Ultima Online in the fall of 1999.  Sure, I was not there for the hardcore crowd, but I think I came in at a good time of the game.  My UO career lasted for quite some time, all the way until 2007.

Anyways, with that put aside.  Sure quite a few of you will disagree but screw that.  World of Warcraft is one of the best MMO's I've played.  Not better than UO mind you, but up there with Asheron's Call and old school DAoC.  Sure it seems weird, since I'm came from a game that so hardcore that it scared people away to Everquest.  WoW gave players something that most games did not, we grew up.  It gave us time, it made us feel like we were put into a world of war (craft, lol) with conflict going on all around.  Sure alot of you think it ruined the genre, but in all honesty it showed what the genre of MMO can do.  It showed us a light so we do not accept unfinished game anymore.  Sure, WoW had it's issues at launch.  But anyone with a brain knows that WoW was polished when it came to MMO's.  It gives you a choice to group if you would like to simplify things, but if you want a bit of a challenge you can go solo.  I'll admit that at times I would like to do things on my own.  It's just the UO player in me, being able to defend myself etc. 

There are always a first in everything, something there to introduce itself to everyone.  But you always need that one thing there that will take what has been and create anew with it.  World of Warcraft did this.  It took what the god fathers of MMO's did and picked the best from them all.  Blizzard is known to create games that appeal to people and polished games.  World of Warcraft only proved that Blizzard can make a MMO like this too.  Hell, I know so many non-gamers that started to play games just because of WoW, my girlfriend being one. 

World of Warcraft was a necessity to this genre.  Without it I'm afraid this genre would be falling.  Instead we now have companies trying to do what WoW did.  It'll just take some time for a game to come and take what WoW has done best and evolve it into something else.  Agree with me or not, WoW is a success.  And remember, this is coming from an ex-UO player.  I know what hardcore is.  World of Warcraft is always welcomed with open arms.  I hope more games can take WoW's recipe and make a new entre out of it.

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Pale_Fire

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Joliust

 

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Originally posted by SignusM

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Originally posted by duffalpha

 

Just like anything with a massive market potential MMOs will eventually be perfected. Just like coca-cola, the big mac, and cigarettes. Its only gunna get better, and im pumped. America.

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If by perfected... you mean watered down and simplified to its most basic levels, void of all challenge or uniquness just to make a buck... then yes, we'll get there.

There is a chance for one or two great MMOs to come out, but the golden age ended the day WoW released.
EverQuest
Dark Age of Camelot
Ultima Online
Asheron's Call
Even SWG to an extent.
They were the greats, but merely memories now.

---

 

So to you the golden age has lasted nearly the entire extend that MMO's have existed?

 

Haha, not quite. It depends on how you look at the games. DAoC was released in 2001. SWG in 2003, you could consider that the end, or you could say that people continued playing past then, so its not technically the end.

For the purposes of my post, I'll go by launch, so that puts it ending around 2002/2003. Starting in 1999 with Ultima. It's been a steady, and then a steep decline since then. Nice exageration though.

 

"Don't assume that because you and a few other people don't like WoW that it's a bad game.  WoW IS a great game and they have the consistent population over an extending period of years to back that up.  And it will grow its population even further when WotLK is released.  I have a feeling they'll get it right just as they have been over the past few years."

 

As for that... they're getting it right, from a business sense, because the people just keep taking it. I don't know how you can classify any game as good when this is their strategy. Replace griding with mindless tasks of collecting body parts and call them quests, destroy communities and socialization, then force everyone back together into tight, angry clicks for raiding. The raiding itself is a joke... My friends raid 3-4 times a week, every week, just to get some kind of armor. And they keep doing it, over and over and over, the same exact instance. This gear doesn't help with PvP, that's another grind completely. Then when you finally have all your stuff, they release an expansion and mroe levels, making a new grind that's exactly the same. And people keep playing it, cause there hasn't been a good MMO since then. Its a sad sad system.

 

 

You know, you make a lot of baseless assertions, and that's all they are. 

"they're getting it right, from a business sense, because the people just keep taking it."   Again, you assume that since you don't like the game or it's features, that it's a bad game.  You also assume that most of those playing don't actually enjoy playing the game.

"Replace griding with mindless tasks of collecting body parts and call them quests," WoW has the same fare of quests as every other MMORPG out there.  And in fact, have quite a few innovative twists on many of their quests.  Your criticism is one you can level on just about every MMORPG in the market.

"destroy communities and socialization"  Well, not sure what you're referring to, but WoW doesn't do anything particularly different from other games in terms in game socialization.

"The raiding itself is a joke... My friends raid 3-4 times a week, every week, just to get some kind of armor. And they keep doing it, over and over and over, the same exact instance. This gear doesn't help with PvP, that's another grind completely. Then when you finally have all your stuff, they release an expansion and mroe levels, making a new grind that's exactly the same. And people keep playing it, cause there hasn't been a good MMO since then. Its a sad sad system"  Again, you assume because you don't like a feature, it must be a bad game.  Further, this isn't even a feature you have to participate in.  I did very little raiding when I played but had a great time playing the other elements of the game. 

If this is the best you can do for why WoW sucks, you've failed.  If you don't like the game, fine, but don't try and sell that it's a bad game.  It's a great game and will be for some time to come.

I never said that WoW sucked. It's a very well made, polished game. The gameplay on the other hand, I don't give it any credit for at all, because it didn't do anything new.

As for the quests... NOW quests are the way they are, because of WoW. In the good MMOs, quests weren' the main way to level, they took a slight effort to find (talk to NPCs), and gave you something worthwhile, along with a decent story.

The raiding is also a pretty bad system. Maybe if you had to do the raid once or twice, that'd be fine, but 4 times a week, for months? How do people not hate it? In DAoC raids were rare, fun, and difficult to pull off. I guess the reason is because they weren't the ONLY thing to do.

Also, I think the only people really satisfied by WOW are the noobs to the MMO scene who's first MMO was WoW and all its subsequent clones. They are unaware of what was before, and I don't really blame them. But there are plenty of people waiting for a new good MMO, and keep saying things like "well I guess its back to WoW... again, until something comes out, nothing better to play"

Yup exactly WOW is a very well solidly made game for what it is. There is just no depth there nothing to keep many people like myself interested beyond a few months at best.
 

As for quests WOW doesn't have quests. WOW has tasks. You want quests go look at the old EQ  Coldain Prayer shawl or Coldain Ring quests or any of the original EPIC quests or even the BIC quest. Those were real quests and when they were first introduced they were not easy to do either.

The reason why WoW indirectly ruined the golden age of MMOs is because it showed game developers they should never target veterans but rather target the newbies that's never played an MMO.

This is why the new MMOs will all license major IPs like Warhammer, Conan, etc. They are targetting the masses that surely outnumber the jarred MMO veteran

MMO vets as summed up by Richard Bartle, tend to spend less and less time in MMO. This is why MMOs will follow the trend where they ignore the vets and optimize to appeal to newbies

We will see more:

1) controlled pvp (consentual)

2) reduced travel times

3) More Quests (helps make leveling more fair for all Classes; soloing). See DDO, LOTRO, etc I hear gamers complain about quest XP granting far more xp then grinding mobs. This is reason why

4) Levels / Classes will be strictly enforced (removes ability for noobs to gimp themselves). See old E3 vid why Cryptic originally dropped their complex system for a simple Class based one. but the long term negative effects hurt their game so Champions Online wont be like that (I hope)

 5) Instances (because newbies do not understand the benefit of open PVE worlds)

6) reduced death penalty (DPs feel like increased grinding to newbies)

Basically anything newbies like will become more and more emergent. Unlike Console games, MMOs follow a different model that is unfortunately, driven by newbies.

Notice so far at E3 we get innovative games like Mirror's Edge and so forth. MMO wise- meh, nothing coming up that is truly groundshaking no time soon. I do look forward to the independant titles like WELL Online, Mortal, etc where they are forced to innovate to get attention but not totally jumping off da wall for the mass market titles coming out

Nowadays, no. Communities are too demanding. Companies are held back due to hardware problems. Creativity got kicked out, and replaced with FedEx quests. big companies noticed there's money to be earned with MMORPG's so they create worthless MMORPG's which people thought would be good, because it's made by a famous company....

The only exception so far was Guild Wars, founded by some highly experienced people, but they at least took a different direction. If only more companies would attempt to do so, MMORPG's would be great, absolutely great. Let's say if WoW, GW and Darkfall got released at the same date, pretty much all the players would have been satisfied at that moment, no?

WoW then setting the new Meta for quests. Darkfall being there for the experienced players (mostly PvP probably). Guild Wars being there for the people who don't want to pay fees for a good game, want a decent storyline (only referring to prophecies ). 

That would've been a great 3-4 years indeed. Got sick of the one, go play to other, since all 3 of them are supposed to be very different. Add new content for every game to that...

On a more positive note, although I do feel WoW urshered in a dark regression era for MMOs it might possibly help spark a progression. WoW got a lot of people hooked into MMOs and now this industry has gotten a lot bigger. A lot of people can't get their 'fix' fully by playing single player / FPS games anymore.

so perhaps we will see independants try to each carve their own little pies in the market share and dominant a 'niche' in which vets can enjoy

You likely wont see the 'next great mmo' from a mainstream big-money corporation. They tend to have big budgets, and aim for big financial returns, therefore try to target the highest amount of players they can, therefore make watered down please-everyone mmorpgs, therefore making the same old craptastic clones that most of us long term gamers love to hate, which end up being the exact same game with different skins. ZZZzzz

Some some independent firm will make it, or no one will.

Anyway what your average gamer these days seems to want is a single player rpg style play whenever and who cares game, not a virtual world full of interconnected life where you can do your own thing and have a profound effect on the world.. so meh.

Was I the only one that thought the golden age on MMOs were not so golden.  They had some great ideas that I would like to see return, mainly skills and the ability to build houses etc., but by and large I found them to be very slow and time consuming, and really a giant grind.  I always liked the concept of MMOs but found the old ones to be very lackluster, the ability to choose your own skills, in depth crafting or own a home does not matter much if the core of the game is dull.  So I like many concepts from older MMOs but I never want to see their slow ploding pace and time sinks return.

Something I like about WoW was making progression in the game faster and less grinding by proximity, they also sped the combat up which to me makes it more fun.  I was able to tolerate the grind, something I couldn't do in older MMOs.

Somethings like strict verticle leveling,  hierarchal skills/levels and items and too much character focus I find to be a negative aspect to all MMOs, new and old, and will be glad when someones makes one without it.

Then again I didn't play PnP games, I found them dull, so I was never much of a roleplayer, I came from action adventure games, but I was also interested in playing with other people and persistant worlds.  From my perspective MMOs are improving, they are feeling less like work and more like a game, as they should.

At some point in time someone came up with a new idea.  The idea of allowing players to use existing technology to play together in a persistent world.  The new ideas don't just happen every day and I think we're in a period now where it just doesn't seem new anymore.  At some point though someone is going to come along and come up with another new idea and we'll all wonder why noone thought of it before.

For new players to the genre that feeling of excitement over a new experience continues.  It's just us old farts that don't appreciate it as much anymore.

Originally posted by vajuras

The reason why WoW indirectly ruined the golden age of MMOs is because it showed game developers they should never target veterans but rather target the newbies that's never played an MMO.

This is why the new MMOs will all license major IPs like Warhammer, Conan, etc. They are targetting the masses that surely outnumber the jarred MMO veteran

MMO vets as summed up by Richard Bartle, tend to spend less and less time in MMO. This is why MMOs will follow the trend where they ignore the vets and optimize to appeal to newbies

We will see more:

1) controlled pvp (consentual)

2) reduced travel times

3) More Quests (helps make leveling more fair for all Classes; soloing). See DDO, LOTRO, etc I hear gamers complain about quest XP granting far more xp then grinding mobs. This is reason why

4) Levels / Classes will be strictly enforced (removes ability for noobs to gimp themselves). See old E3 vid why Cryptic originally dropped their complex system for a simple Class based one. but the long term negative effects hurt their game so Champions Online wont be like that (I hope)

 5) Instances (because newbies do not understand the benefit of open PVE worlds)

6) reduced death penalty (DPs feel like increased grinding to newbies)

Basically anything newbies like will become more and more emergent. Unlike Console games, MMOs follow a different model that is unfortunately, driven by newbies.

Notice so far at E3 we get innovative games like Mirror's Edge and so forth. MMO wise- meh, nothing coming up that is truly groundshaking no time soon. I do look forward to the independant titles like WELL Online, Mortal, etc where they are forced to innovate to get attention but not totally jumping off da wall for the mass market titles coming out

Well if by veteran you mean the masochistic niche market then you would be correct.  Your 1, 2, 5 and 6 have nothing to do with making a game great.  2, 5 and 6 are time sinks and nothinn more, while 1 could be  a great asset if pk sisies would be willing to accept real consequences or risk for their actions.  I have to laugh when people say this crap was the golden age of mmos.

3 I'm not sure how mob grinding vs quest grinding is better one way or the other.  I would say quest brought to much linearness to mmos.  They don't feel like a online world anymore.  You are being led by the nose from area to area.

4 UO was always gimp proof.  I would say classes took hold and have stayed because it is much easier to balance several classes vs hundreds of skills and people comfort level with classes.

5 I don't get why people get so excited about instances.  It was a nightmare in UO fighting over every spawn.  WoW micro raid instances were terrible but I like how AoC handled it's instances.

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Originally posted by CactusmanX

Something I like about WoW was making progression in the game faster and less grinding by proximity, they also sped the combat up which to me makes it more fun. I was able to tolerate the grind, something I couldn't do in older MMOs.

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See, this is why we won't have any big budget excellent mmo's anymore, these kinds of instant gratification single-player rpg'er style gamers are the lowest common denominator, and the big developers aim for these guys, and we end up with games that arent about living in the world and experiencing it, but rather insta-win end-gamer types. Pretty soon they will do away with 'leveling' completely and just give everyone instant end-game access, killing the mmorpg genre even more.

Not that you arent entitled to your type of game, CactusmanX, but its not the kind of mmorpg that people were (and still are) wishing for, its more of an fps-style instant action game type and not a virtual alternate reality game

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Originally posted by CactusmanX
Was I the only one that thought the golden age on MMOs were not so golden. They had some great ideas that I would like to see return, mainly skills and the ability to build houses etc., but by and large I found them to be very slow and time consuming, and really a giant grind. I always liked the concept of MMOs but found the old ones to be very lackluster, the ability to choose your own skills, in depth crafting or own a home does not matter much if the core of the game is dull. So I like many concepts from older MMOs but I never want to see their slow ploding pace and time sinks return.
Something I like about WoW was making progression in the game faster and less grinding by proximity, they also sped the combat up which to me makes it more fun. I was able to tolerate the grind, something I couldn't do in older MMOs.
Somethings like strict verticle leveling, hierarchal skills/levels and items and too much character focus I find to be a negative aspect to all MMOs, new and old, and will be glad when someones makes one without it.
Then again I didn't play PnP games, I found them dull, so I was never much of a roleplayer, I came from action adventure games, but I was also interested in playing with other people and persistant worlds. From my perspective MMOs are improving, they are feeling less like work and more like a game, as they should.

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No, you're not the only one, I feel the same way. I was there for the "golde ages" of UO and EQ, and while they had some good aspects, they were FAR from being the "perfect MMO" and they did become huge time sinks at some points, something I completely and utterly hate, if I'm going to pay someone money to play an MMO, it better be so that I can play and have FUN, and not think of my MMO like a second job.

Originally posted by duffalpha

Just like anything with a massive market potential MMOs will eventually be perfected. Just like coca-cola, the big mac, and cigarettes. 

Perfected? There is no such thing as the perfect MMO, just like Coca-cola is not the perfect drink.

There will never, ever, be one MMO that can meet the needs and wants of every online gamer.

Originally posted by CactusmanX

Was I the only one that thought the golden age on MMOs were not so golden.  They had some great ideas that I would like to see return, mainly skills and the ability to build houses etc., but by and large I found them to be very slow and time consuming, and really a giant grind.  I always liked the concept of MMOs but found the old ones to be very lackluster, the ability to choose your own skills, in depth crafting or own a home does not matter much if the core of the game is dull.  So I like many concepts from older MMOs but I never want to see their slow ploding pace and time sinks return.

Something I like about WoW was making progression in the game faster and less grinding by proximity, they also sped the combat up which to me makes it more fun.  I was able to tolerate the grind, something I couldn't do in older MMOs.

Somethings like strict verticle leveling,  hierarchal skills/levels and items and too much character focus I find to be a negative aspect to all MMOs, new and old, and will be glad when someones makes one without it.

Then again I didn't play PnP games, I found them dull, so I was never much of a roleplayer, I came from action adventure games, but I was also interested in playing with other people and persistant worlds.  From my perspective MMOs are improving, they are feeling less like work and more like a game, as they should.

There really isn't an MMO out there that isn't grindy to an extent. Maybe there is Second Life and Guild Wars (rare exception) but those have different payment models

Many would argue these newer titles tend to more grindy due to the extreme focus on gear and end game

In UO, at least pre-AoS, from what I recall items gave much less bonuses. This is a farcry from gear you see nowadays which is more like 50% or something....

Originally posted by deedelechach

Originally posted by duffalpha

Just like anything with a massive market potential MMOs will eventually be perfected. Just like coca-cola, the big mac, and cigarettes. 

 

Perfected? There is no such thing as the perfect MMO, just like Coca-cola is not the perfect drink.

There will never, ever, be one MMO that can meet the needs and wants of every online gamer.

He meant perfected in the American sense of mass marketing and profit. It will be "perfected" to the point of selling millions and millions on something horrible for you. Mcdonalds sucks, cigarettes kill, coca-cola is bad for you. But everyone loves them, buys them, spends a crap ton of money on them. Why make a good MMO, when you can "perfect" the business model and make millions.

Originally posted by Venger

Originally posted by vajuras

The reason why WoW indirectly ruined the golden age of MMOs is because it showed game developers they should never target veterans but rather target the newbies that's never played an MMO.

This is why the new MMOs will all license major IPs like Warhammer, Conan, etc. They are targetting the masses that surely outnumber the jarred MMO veteran

MMO vets as summed up by Richard Bartle, tend to spend less and less time in MMO. This is why MMOs will follow the trend where they ignore the vets and optimize to appeal to newbies

We will see more:

1) controlled pvp (consentual)

2) reduced travel times

3) More Quests (helps make leveling more fair for all Classes; soloing). See DDO, LOTRO, etc I hear gamers complain about quest XP granting far more xp then grinding mobs. This is reason why

4) Levels / Classes will be strictly enforced (removes ability for noobs to gimp themselves). See old E3 vid why Cryptic originally dropped their complex system for a simple Class based one. but the long term negative effects hurt their game so Champions Online wont be like that (I hope)

 5) Instances (because newbies do not understand the benefit of open PVE worlds)

6) reduced death penalty (DPs feel like increased grinding to newbies)

Basically anything newbies like will become more and more emergent. Unlike Console games, MMOs follow a different model that is unfortunately, driven by newbies.

Notice so far at E3 we get innovative games like Mirror's Edge and so forth. MMO wise- meh, nothing coming up that is truly groundshaking no time soon. I do look forward to the independant titles like WELL Online, Mortal, etc where they are forced to innovate to get attention but not totally jumping off da wall for the mass market titles coming out

 

Well if by veteran you mean the masochistic niche market then you would be correct.  Your 1, 2, 5 and 6 have nothing to do with making a game great.  2, 5 and 6 are time sinks and nothinn more, while 1 could be  a great asset if pk sisies would be willing to accept real consequences or risk for their actions.  I have to laugh when people say this crap was the golden age of mmos.

3 I'm not sure how mob grinding vs quest grinding is better one way or the other.  I would say quest brought to much linearness to mmos.  They don't feel like a online world anymore.  You are being led by the nose from area to area.

4 UO was always gimp proof.  I would say classes took hold and have stayed because it is much easier to balance several classes vs hundreds of skills and people comfort level with classes.

5 I don't get why people get so excited about instances.  It was a nightmare in UO fighting over every spawn.  WoW micro raid instances were terrible but I like how AoC handled it's instances.

I agree I would say guild wars optimized itself to hit all 6 points perfectly and its a fun game. It's debatable if it's a virtual world though. I'm not saying whether the new linear games are better or worse per se. Just saying that is where industry is headed. Obviously I don't prefer them which is why I play EVE.

Originally posted by vajuras

There really isn't an MMO out there that isn't grindy to an extent. Maybe there is Second Life and Guild Wars (rare exception) but those have different payment models

Many would argue these newer titles tend to more grindy due to the extreme focus on gear and end game

In UO, at least pre-AoS, from what I recall items gave much less bonuses. This is a farcry from gear you see nowadays which is more like 50% or something....

Yeah no kidding I hate gear grinds, I will be glad to see gear that doesn't make or break your character.

Good thing is though in most newer MMOs the majority of grind is at the end, so I don't even do it, I level at a timely pace up til max then usually stop.

Now if you could combine UO notions of gear and WoW leveling speed I think that would be great.

some points why I feel older MMOs were golden age and way AHEAD of their time:

1) There were seamless worlds (non-instanced). In UO you could drop a house in the world itself and it was visible to everyone. You could display your trophies, etc for all to see

2) Skill-based system allowed you to skillup doing what you wanted. In UO, you could skillup in a duel. Pvpers are jumping up and down because WAR will grant XP from PVP. <laughs> UO had that a LONG time ago

3) Gear was much less overpowered in UO pre-AoS. can someone remember what were the stats wasn;'t it like +3? compare that to 200%+ that purples grant in WoW

4) Real time dodging

5) Collision detection

6) Light barriers between friends. A vet and a newb could grind on same mobs as long as the newb can survive

7) Housing allowed players to organize their own communities; impact the world itself

8) dyes for armor

9) rich world pvp with IMPACT. Two guilds could be at war and due to loss of resources and consequence wars would end. guilds would surrender. Compare that to nowadays on WoW where guilds fight on forums <laughs>

Some of this is coming back here and there and Devs tout it like a major feature when they were here in original MMOs

Originally posted by CactusmanX

Originally posted by vajuras

There really isn't an MMO out there that isn't grindy to an extent. Maybe there is Second Life and Guild Wars (rare exception) but those have different payment models

Many would argue these newer titles tend to more grindy due to the extreme focus on gear and end game

In UO, at least pre-AoS, from what I recall items gave much less bonuses. This is a farcry from gear you see nowadays which is more like 50% or something....

 

Yeah no kidding I hate gear grinds, I will be glad to see gear that doesn't make or break your character.

Good thing is though in most newer MMOs the majority of grind is at the end, so I don't even do it, I level at a timely pace up til max then usually stop.

Now if you could combine UO notions of gear and WoW leveling speed I think that would be great.

yes I agree that would be sweet