Hmm, I manage to have a full brutal set and a nice PvE setup (Tier 6) while only playing for around two hours a day on average

You can't raid and do arena in only 2 hours, if that's really true I'll congratulate you

, I actually enjoy arena,

Good for you I guess

and spend no time in battlegrounds.

That's because you're not a new player, this thread is dedicated to new players. If you were running around in quest items you'd have to spend countless hours in BG in order to get pvp honor items IN ORDER TO even be able to compete in arena

But hey, maybe that's because I know what I'm doing.

And perhaps because you're a douche

I played WoW from release and 3 years after that. Nothing is fun forever and when you realise you aren't having fun anymore you can start to analays why that is. For me it was the fact that the sense of a community was non-existant. WoW had the worst mmo community ever from the mmos I've played, and I've tried about half of the games on the list to your left. The thing in WoW is that blizzard no longer seem to care about making the game fun, they only seem to be interested in getting people to stay but without the means you'd want to see, for example the whole honor system is one big screwup, once you hit 70 now you're like "oh now it's bg time again" and you play those godawful bgs until your eyes bleed. when you've gotten all the honor gear you're ready to compete in arena, or atleast try because most will have better gear than you (you will notice this if you roll an alt or are a new player). The arena is also one big grind where setup,spec and gear weighs in the most.

Pre-TBC you PvEd in order to kick ass in PvP. You could compete vs other players with the gear gained for raids. Now in TBC you get better at PvEing from PvEing which kinda defeats the purpose since every new instance scales with the gear you gain. So in theory you're still on the same step of the ladder since the roof keeps getting higher, you just manage to stay at the managable level of it.

WoW is in my oppinion a soulless beast with the worst community i've ever experienced. Blizzard managed to make it very addictive tho. I logged in for two months doing nothing but BG:s and hating every minute of it. Execpt when you got that crappy purple item after X-k honor, fantastic. Then i finally quit the damn game. Today I caught myself pondering if I'm gonna try the new x-pac Wotlk, then I just say one word to myself, battlegrounds. That usually puts me off the thought of ever playing WoW again.

has anyone mentioned yet the community for a reason WoW blows?

sucks because i will be avoiding WAR most likely, as that seems to be where the pre-teen wow crowd will be heading

Originally posted by Malvolentia

1.  Battlegrounds - be prepared to spend most of your life in here if you even want to try and compete.  There's a massive world that goes ignored while 90% of players are in here lookin for gear.

2.  Arenas - A failed attempt at an Electronic sport.  Even most players hate it.  Blizzard won't give it up so it's left as the major focus of the game.  Forget raiding Orgrimmar or Stormwind! hop in this cage for endless hours.

I also dislike Battlegrounds and Arenas, but i still play WoW-- for raiding!

Originally posted by Malvolentia

Lol.  The new "open PvP area"  I'll tell you right now what that's going to be and mark my words here.

  We know how Blizzard does "world pvp"  The new pvp area will be a worthless pit out in the middle of nowhere.  It will be far from questers cause we wouldn't want the poor babies questing experience interfered with on "PvP" server during a supposed war.  It will be secluded and hold no real weight in the world besides getting a couple pieces of gear.   After 2 months it will be a ghost town just like Halaa, EPL, and the other failed Control PVP areas Blizzard has attempted.  People want a war to interfere with other people.  Not play in controled playgrounds.

I see.  So it's only good PvP when you can grief someone.  You people are all alike.  You try to mask it real well, but in the end all you are really concerned with is ruining someone else's play experience.  I'm actually quite glad that Blizzard doesn't listen to people like you.
 

I've never been griefed in my life, because I'm cautious of it and even when it happens I don't let it bother me, everyone has only themselves to blame for taking it so seriously and giving the griefers what they want. And I still play Ultima Online on a free shard with old rules where real griefing happens.

But all these "XXX mmo sucks" threads are silly, because pretty much all mmos suck not just a few. They're all pretty much the same, every once and awhile you find one that you like for some superficial reason and stick with it until you finally get bored, while the companies suck in absurd amounts of money.

Originally posted by UncertaintyP

I've never been griefed in my life...and even when it happens....

So which is it?  Either you have been griefed or you haven't.  Whether or not you get upset about it has nothing to do with the intention.  The act of griefing does not cause grief, it's an ATTEMPT to cause grief.  Whether or not it succeeds is irrelevent.

I don't let griefers get to me either.  That doesn't mean I want a game designed to encourage griefing.  There's no reason you can't design a game that allows for LOTS of different types of play styles.  WoW does a very good job of this.  Some people would have Blizzard FORCE people to play a particular style that THEY enjoy.  I like the way Blizzard does it.  It ALLOWS for PvP, but doesn't punish those who attempt to avoid it.

If I'm attacked by someone that I have a decent chance of killing, I'll stand and fight and tip my hat to him if he kills me.  On the other hand if I get attacked by someone 3 or 4 levels above me, while engaged and my health is at 50% already...well I just can't be bothered with those people.  I'll just die, rez and escape thank you very much.  I get as much enjoyment out of escaping this person as I do a win in a fair fight...maybe even more.

Personally I thought the best pvp they had though a bit unsteady due to being released after the game went live by a few months or whatever, was when Av first came out . It did feel epic in a sense IMO clashing in the field of strife for 12 hours was the way I thought it should have been. But even then people complained it took to long and blahh blahh.

That was the whole point it was two factions going at it for supremacy. But noooo everyone wanted to be able to get 20 av's in in the 25 mins online every night or whatever. I think av should have been treated like the plans for public quests in WAR that would have been a much better design plan imo. reward people for comming and going for what amount of dps they do or how many npc's they kill and so on. But nope blizz went the way of grind fest and what did we end up with 5 minute races to kill the boss.(GO KILL ONY if you want just boss kills.) But W/E I'm not ranting just stating a design flaw that could have been taken in a more healthy way for the game as a whole yet blizz seemed to take the short path on pvp.(again and again since the addition of bg's and so forth)and went all out on the PVE side to what avail. Now more people are in bg's grinding gear then raids it seems. I cant attest to that but it sure feels like it when all activity in the world seems to mob around battle masters.

I think that once they made the decision to add pvp/bg's/areanas that the focus on all development should have been split between the two so that both grew as close to evenly as would be apropriate but it seems like the pvp gets no love.

Nerfs and changes and nothing new persay.Give me 10 times the honor for killing someone in open pvp that might stimulate the world pvp and energy a bit or something. Even another type of point system to record such a thing so I could get diferent gear indicating that I will kill you in the wilderness if given the opertunity.

Anywho just trying to kill time at work but thought i would toss in a tid bit.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by UncertaintyP

I've never been griefed in my life...and even when it happens....

So which is it?  Either you have been griefed or you haven't.  Whether or not you get upset about it has nothing to do with the intention.  The act of griefing does not cause grief, it's an ATTEMPT to cause grief.  Whether or not it succeeds is irrelevent.

I don't let griefers get to me either.  That doesn't mean I want a game designed to encourage griefing.  There's no reason you can't design a game that allows for LOTS of different types of play styles.  WoW does a very good job of this.  Some people would have Blizzard FORCE people to play a particular style that THEY enjoy.  I like the way Blizzard does it.  It ALLOWS for PvP, but doesn't punish those who attempt to avoid it.

If I'm attacked by someone that I have a decent chance of killing, I'll stand and fight and tip my hat to him if he kills me.  On the other hand if I get attacked by someone 3 or 4 levels above me, while engaged and my health is at 50% already...well I just can't be bothered with those people.  I'll just die, rez and escape thank you very much.  I get as much enjoyment out of escaping this person as I do a win in a fair fight...maybe even more.

Well said.

The first time we will see organised open world PvP in a structured way of "some" balanced classes in an MMORPG will be WotLK.

Dark Age of Camelot had SOOOO much issues with the balancing of classes they had to call it a RvR system, because as a team based PvP system the game was a laugh in play balance.

Tx to Arena,...  Blizzard at least gave a decent try to balance something in 3vs3 and 5vs5. More just can't be done in an MMORPG, but at the same time this Arena study will at least result in a better class balance in open world fights IF the rules and balancing techniques will be further finalized by Blizz.

Some say there are "only" 4 BG's in Wow with a 5th coming out in WotLK, but the "polishment" and play value of these BG's are constantly tweaked.

And IF you are a really hardened PvP player you LOVE Arena. If you don't love it, you are just a ganker of low levels in Strangleton Vale and the Crossroads.

No merits or rewards by Blizzard on that kind of playing style and justly so!

Actually, if griefing doesn't cause grief why would it be called griefing.  That's like saying someone is angering me but I'm not angry.  Doesn't make sense.  So he did have a point, although it's semantics :P

I do agree DAOC was extremely unbalanced, and in WOW arena helped iron out "some" of the kinks in balance for small groups.

I liked arena when it first came out but it gets boring as the only form or serious PvP sides the 4 BGs.  World PvP is too scarce.  No massive feel to it, everything endgame is instanced.  One more BG? LOL. That's pathetic.

Why did they wait 4 years to add a PvP structured zone? That's just sad.

Arena would be better if they let you be in more than one team then at least you could spend time with different teams when different people are on.

As for running away from griefing, if you're lower level and don't have an epic mount/flyer you can't really run away if they camp. 

[quote][i]Originally posted by Zorndorf[/i] [b][quote][i]Originally posted by Pappy13[/i] [quote][i]Originally posted by UncertaintyP[/i] Normal 0 MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 I've never been griefed in my life, because I'm cautious of it and even when it happens I don't let it bother me, everyone has only themselves to blame. And I still play Ultima Online on a free shard with old rules where real griefing happens, not these new MMOs where griefing means "three guys killed me (but I just respawned and only lost some xp...)" /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} Normal 0 MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} I've never been griefed in my life...and even when it happens.... [/quote] So which is it? Either you have been griefed or you haven't. Whether or not you get upset about it has nothing to do with the intention. The act of griefing does not cause grief, it's an ATTEMPT to cause grief. Whether or not it succeeds is irrelevent. I don't let griefers get to me either. That doesn't mean I want a game designed to encourage griefing. There's no reason you can't design a game that allows for LOTS of different types of play styles. WoW does a very good job of this. Some people would have Blizzard FORCE people to play a particular style that THEY enjoy. I like the way Blizzard does it. It ALLOWS for PvP, but doesn't punish those who attempt to avoid it. If I'm attacked by someone that I have a decent chance of killing, I'll stand and fight and tip my hat to him if he kills me. On the other hand if I get attacked by someone 3 or 4 levels above me, while engaged and my health is at 50% already...well I just can't be bothered with those people. I'll just die, rez and escape thank you very much. I get as much enjoyment out of escaping this person as I do a win in a fair fight...maybe even more. [/quote] Well said. The first time we will see [u]organised open world PvP [/u]in a [u]structured [/u]way of "[u]some" balanced [/u]classes in an MMORPG will be WotLK. Dark Age of Camelot had SOOOO much issues with the balancing of classes they had to call it a RvR system, because as a team based PvP system the game was a laugh in [u]play balance[/u]. Tx to Arena,... Blizzard at least gave a decent [u]try to balance [/u]something in 3vs3 and 5vs5. More just can't be done in an MMORPG, but at the same time this Arena study will at least result in a better class balance in open world fights IF the rules and balancing techniques will be further finalized by Blizz. Some say there are "only" 4 BG's in Wow with a 5th coming out in WotLK, but the "polishment" and play value of these BG's are constantly tweaked. And IF you are a really hardened PvP player you LOVE Arena.

I can not agree with only this part of what you say and below only cause it is not possible for a newer player just hitting 70 's or w/e and enjoying anything about going against a season 3 geared person. No matter what lvl of player skill he has he will be anialated  for just exsisting near the same space as the geared person.That in my opinion is where blizz messed up badly but with rading gear and such they had no choice. So in essence the nail was in the coffin from the get go.. I just cant understand why they went in such a hardened lineare path.

  I personnally think they shot themselves in the foot cause soon you will get the EvE mentality of why bother starting now Ill never catch up. I tryed a few arenas and did not like it  but I am sure that had to do with the fact that I was not in game for season 1and 2. So comming into the game to face gear that could kill me without anyone's avatar even being in it made it pointless to the point that I only log in to toss a few spells and see the pretty pixels now. 99% of the time im in bg's now I barely pay attention and only do it to try to make myself believe that I do want all the bullcraptastic gear.(till something better comes along)

If you don't love it, you are just a ganker of low levels in Strangleton Vale and the Crossroads. No merits or rewards by Blizzard on that kind of playing style and justly so!

For your information I had some of the best times in the game at Crossroads and the vale.(in my 20's-30's)(somewhat remotely similar to  fighting for spawns in UO) I can recall some pretty damn good fights happening back in the day in the world pvp spectrum.Once i hit 50 I was all instances back then for XP. That or Bg's for rank...

Its sad I remember thinking before WoW came out I can't wait to burn down a town as WAS advertised to be in game.(Alas It didnt happen)

[/b][/quote][/quote][/quote]

Originally posted by fuzzylojik

Actually, if griefing doesn't cause grief why would it be called griefing.  That's like saying someone is angering me but I'm not angry.  Doesn't make sense.  So he did have a point, although it's semantics :P

As for running away from griefing, if you're lower level and don't have an epic mount/flyer you can't really run away if they camp.  

Because they are attempting to grief you.  Saying someone is angering you means that you are angered.  If you are not angered, then they are not angering you.  But you're talking about your reaction to what they are doing, not what they are doing which regardless is the same.

The same is true in WoW.  They are called griefers not because of how you react to them, but rather what they expect to accomplish.  They could be doing any one of 10 million things that griefers do to try to get you upset.  The only thing that matters to them is the end result of you being upset.  That is why they are called griefers, because they are trying to cause you grief.  It doesn't matter if they actually succeed or not, that's still what they are attempting to do.  Someone who tries to grief you and fails does not become a non griefer, they are just a poor griefer.

Well there are lots of ways to avoid a griefer.  If you have some kind of stealth you can use that.  If you don't there are potions that will stealth you.  If you don't have that available, you have a fair bit of real estate with which you can rez and attempt to sneak away unnoticed.  If they are a hunter for example and none of the above will work you can simply wait them out.  Very few griefers will wait around for very long if you don't rez. and will run off to look for another person to prey on.  And if none of that will work you can always switch to your level 70 hunter and camp their butt for awhile which is my favorite option.

people complain about them never adding anything new, remember for a few months after the game came out there wasnt even a pvp system for rewards or anything, or even battleground....and lets not forget hardcore raiding didnt even start till MC was released months after release... and all they have done is keep adding more stuff like that to keep people playing and feed their addiction

Originally posted by Deadsyzz0mg

people complain about them never adding anything new, remember for a few months after the game came out there wasnt even a pvp system for rewards or anything, or even battleground....and lets not forget hardcore raiding didnt even start till MC was released months after release... and all they have done is keep adding more stuff like that to keep people playing and feed their addiction

Yup you said it....."feed their addiction". That's why you have the posting like the OP.

Originally posted by Deadsyzz0mg

people complain about them never adding anything new, remember for a few months after the game came out there wasnt even a pvp system for rewards or anything, or even battleground....and lets not forget hardcore raiding didnt even start till MC was released months after release... and all they have done is keep adding more stuff like that to keep people playing and feed their addiction

MC was in at release.  The following was taken from the patch notes of release 1.2  which was the very first patch released on 12/18/04.

"If you die in Molten Core, you will now be able to retrieve your corpse at the Blackrock Depths instance line. "

If MC was not in at release, how did they manage to patch it in the very first patch?

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by fuzzylojik

Actually, if griefing doesn't cause grief why would it be called griefing.  That's like saying someone is angering me but I'm not angry.  Doesn't make sense.  So he did have a point, although it's semantics :P

As for running away from griefing, if you're lower level and don't have an epic mount/flyer you can't really run away if they camp.  

Because they are attempting to grief you.  Saying someone is angering you means that you are angered.  If you are not angered, then they are not angering you.  But you're talking about your reaction to what they are doing, not what they are doing which regardless is the same.

The same is true in WoW.  They are called griefers not because of how you react to them, but rather what they expect to accomplish.  They could be doing any one of 10 million things that griefers do to try to get you upset.  The only thing that matters to them is the end result of you being upset.  That is why they are called griefers, because they are trying to cause you grief.  It doesn't matter if they actually succeed or not, that's still what they are attempting to do.  Someone who tries to grief you and fails does not become a non griefer, they are just a poor griefer.

Well there are lots of ways to avoid a griefer.  If you have some kind of stealth you can use that.  If you don't there are potions that will stealth you.  If you don't have that available, you have a fair bit of real estate with which you can rez and attempt to sneak away unnoticed.  If they are a hunter for example and none of the above will work you can simply wait them out.  Very few griefers will wait around for very long if you don't rez. and will run off to look for another person to prey on.  And if none of that will work you can always switch to your level 70 hunter and camp their butt for awhile which is my favorite option.

Still doesn't make sense to me, since there is no "official" definition hard to say which of you is right.  If your definition is right then the word is a misnomer. For instance, a killer only is called one he kills another dead.  If the person doesn't die he isn't a killer.

Thus a more valid argument about "griefer" would be if he griefed someone else before.

Most griefers just patrol the same area and if ur still questing there when they come back they just kill you again.

The thing I hate most is the raiding so I don't take part. I just do the parts of the game I still tolerate. I would love to see 5man versions of all the raid dungeons I don't care if they lower the loot I just want to see some new stuff. My life does not revolve around the gear my toon has it is just a game  nothing more nothing less.

Man if you dont enjoy doing that then  dont do it. The great thing about WOW is that it gives you alot of options in how you can earn gear. I personally like way and I play very casually.

Originally posted by fuzzylojik

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by fuzzylojik

Actually, if griefing doesn't cause grief why would it be called griefing.  That's like saying someone is angering me but I'm not angry.  Doesn't make sense.  So he did have a point, although it's semantics :P

As for running away from griefing, if you're lower level and don't have an epic mount/flyer you can't really run away if they camp.  

Because they are attempting to grief you.  Saying someone is angering you means that you are angered.  If you are not angered, then they are not angering you.  But you're talking about your reaction to what they are doing, not what they are doing which regardless is the same.

The same is true in WoW.  They are called griefers not because of how you react to them, but rather what they expect to accomplish.  They could be doing any one of 10 million things that griefers do to try to get you upset.  The only thing that matters to them is the end result of you being upset.  That is why they are called griefers, because they are trying to cause you grief.  It doesn't matter if they actually succeed or not, that's still what they are attempting to do.  Someone who tries to grief you and fails does not become a non griefer, they are just a poor griefer.

Well there are lots of ways to avoid a griefer.  If you have some kind of stealth you can use that.  If you don't there are potions that will stealth you.  If you don't have that available, you have a fair bit of real estate with which you can rez and attempt to sneak away unnoticed.  If they are a hunter for example and none of the above will work you can simply wait them out.  Very few griefers will wait around for very long if you don't rez. and will run off to look for another person to prey on.  And if none of that will work you can always switch to your level 70 hunter and camp their butt for awhile which is my favorite option.

 

Still doesn't make sense to me, since there is no "official" definition hard to say which of you is right.  If your definition is right then the word is a misnomer. For instance, a killer only is called one he kills another dead.  If the person doesn't die he isn't a killer.

Thus a more valid argument about "griefer" would be if he griefed someone else before.

Most griefers just patrol the same area and if ur still questing there when they come back they just kill you again.

 

So I guess you don't believe that someone should be convicted of ATTEMPTED murder?

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you.  Most people believe that trying to kill someone and failiing is nearly as bad as somone who does kill someone.  Perhaps you wouldn't call them a killer, but I firmly believe the name griefer applies to anyone who attempts to grief.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by fuzzylojik

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by fuzzylojik

Actually, if griefing doesn't cause grief why would it be called griefing.  That's like saying someone is angering me but I'm not angry.  Doesn't make sense.  So he did have a point, although it's semantics :P

As for running away from griefing, if you're lower level and don't have an epic mount/flyer you can't really run away if they camp.  

Because they are attempting to grief you.  Saying someone is angering you means that you are angered.  If you are not angered, then they are not angering you.  But you're talking about your reaction to what they are doing, not what they are doing which regardless is the same.

The same is true in WoW.  They are called griefers not because of how you react to them, but rather what they expect to accomplish.  They could be doing any one of 10 million things that griefers do to try to get you upset.  The only thing that matters to them is the end result of you being upset.  That is why they are called griefers, because they are trying to cause you grief.  It doesn't matter if they actually succeed or not, that's still what they are attempting to do.  Someone who tries to grief you and fails does not become a non griefer, they are just a poor griefer.

Well there are lots of ways to avoid a griefer.  If you have some kind of stealth you can use that.  If you don't there are potions that will stealth you.  If you don't have that available, you have a fair bit of real estate with which you can rez and attempt to sneak away unnoticed.  If they are a hunter for example and none of the above will work you can simply wait them out.  Very few griefers will wait around for very long if you don't rez. and will run off to look for another person to prey on.  And if none of that will work you can always switch to your level 70 hunter and camp their butt for awhile which is my favorite option.

 

Still doesn't make sense to me, since there is no "official" definition hard to say which of you is right.  If your definition is right then the word is a misnomer. For instance, a killer only is called one he kills another dead.  If the person doesn't die he isn't a killer.

Thus a more valid argument about "griefer" would be if he griefed someone else before.

Most griefers just patrol the same area and if ur still questing there when they come back they just kill you again.

 

 

So I guess you don't believe that someone should be convicted of ATTEMPTED murder?

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you.  Most people believe that trying to kill someone and failiing is nearly as bad as somone who does kill someone.  Perhaps you wouldn't call them a killer, but I firmly believe the name griefer applies to anyone who attempts to grief.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

If you don't succeed in murdering someone ur not a murderer period.  Being just as bad is another story but does not affect the name.