WAR (Warhammer Online)

Originally posted by Rekam

lawl, and WoW wins again!

Suprising the topics as of the past two day are more sensical than many of the regular posters provide.For once the majority of people are actually trying to have a clear head debate.

But please, when spewing forth negative or positive comments at least know what your talking about. Every zone in the game is still implemented, the capital cities are cities although large. The zone that the capital city resides in is still there. These zones are pretty large themselves, all If I'm not mistaken with rvr elements. The removal of 4 capital cities isn't even close to 50% of the game.

As to the classes. Fans refer to the individual classes themselves, not the arch types. Even with the removal of the four classes we still have a dps in the form of mauraders and witch hunters. Tanks include the iron breaker.  All the archtypes in the game are still present. Specifically four of the classes aren't. And while mythic implemented some sort of mirror system where the dark sorceress and the bright wizard, and the shaman and the arch mage, use similiar mechanics. They will have different masteries and spells making them separate classes. 20 classes in all.

I'd just like to put this out there.

Every mmo generally has limited end game content on release, ie 1-2 raids, etc etc.

And more get patched in for more end game content.

Even though the DvG and DEvHE main cities are not "higher" in the progression chain, they are similar in the since they are additional end game raids.  Did people complain that Blackwing lair in wow or ZG weren't in the game at release?

I mean we all want war to be the best ever. but come on, as i said before.

20 classes(even though they fit into archetypes, it's still similar to saying destruction warlocks and fire mages are the same class, or how paladin and shaman are the same class)

9 zones per campaign(27 all together)

at least 4 scenarios(maybe 12)

Unknown amount of dungeons

2 capital cities. Each with their own dungeons, raid bosses, public quests, raid systems, instances.(more then a normal mmo raid)

we are losing 4 classes, and 4 main cities.

I can feel the classes, but what you people are failing to realize is that the "just release em half assed/boring i'll play it anyway" Is foolish, since it'll generate so much negativity of "this isn't balanced, this isn't balanced, we aren't fun etc etc" that it wouldn't be worth releasing, remember wow with it's half assed ret/prot paladins, elemental shaman, feral/balance druids, shadow priests, warlocks?  Remember how much negativity surrounded these builds and the people who played em?

Mythic doesn't want that.  And frankly neither do I.

But as i posted earlier,

1-2 months before a siege is even attempted.

1-2 months before a siege succeeds

1-2 months before a siege is "mastered"

1-2 months before someone "completes" their loot.

that's 4-8 months of end game content. 

Sieges aren't like WoW BG's, you don't just decide to do one, and then one side wins and one loses.  If you succeed in defending, it doesn't mean you won the war, you still have to fight to get to their side.

And Sieges aren't like DAoCs just get people outside the keep and begin.

A lot of the "end game PvP" is going to be fights in the t4 zones over keeps and the like.

Trust me people, you aren't gonna be running out of content anytime soon because of only 2 capital cities =P

Originally posted by Gazenthia

Originally posted by markoraos

Calm down.

All the races are in, all of their areas are in as well except the four capitals.

MBJ said that you'll have to control 2 out of 3 battlefronts in order to be able to lay siege to the capital. This very strongly implies that all the T4 areas are in as well - and that includes the greenskin/dwarf and the elven one.

So... Tier 4 areas for each pairing contain 5 zones - 2 capitals, 2 home zones and 1 neutral zone right at the middle. Humans will have all 5 zones while other pairings will have just those 3, at the beginning.

You fight in whatever T4 zone you want. All 3 battlefronts are in and complete. However, the end-endgame bit for now exists only in Empire/Chaos battlefront.

So.. It's business as usual for all the races, except that the final fight invariably takes place in either Inevitable City or Altdorf. Non-human races will have their "ambassadors" there to give out race-specific quests etc (I've actually seen them in a recent Altdorf vid).

Still better. But without Capital Cities, there is no point beyond novelty. We all know that doesn't hold interest very long.

So the zones/regions remain but without purpose.

I agree completely... but at long term perspective. In short term there shouldn't be any problem but things might get stale after a while - and  that's why they shouldn't wait too long with those other capitals.

I mean, you can reason this with the 2 out of 3 for win but only for so long. The game won't suffer much in the short term imo, but in the long run it really does need all 6 capitals and 3 battlefronts in constant flux to provide variety and dynamics.

And still, the question remains as to why they won't just simply delay. After the initial wave, nobody is going to be in those zones and people are going to get bored with 2 classes. Its still going to nuke the game.
 
Hmm, what two classes? Anyway, they did a calculation and came up with the solution that they figure would minimize the losses for everybody. And if you look from the perspective that for the first few months everybody's going to be completely taken up with leveling up, learning the game etc, then this complexity of end-game RvR really isn't crucial.

After the majority of players get to max level and manage to siege a capital or two, that might be the right moment to up the ante with 3 full parallel RvR endgames going on at the same time.  Up until then I doubt anyone will really feel that something's missing. Except for lore reasons, that's obvious, but even that can be fixed with some fancy storywork and a few race-specific quarters in the existing capitals.

 

IMO, in the short run those missing capitals aren't that problematic but they will be really crucial later on. Missing classes, on the other hand, are bad from the start. Races should be equal from the very first second of the game and they should stay that way. If I were making decisions I'd put fixing those 4 classes on the top of my list - I'd even try to squeezee them in at the release, even if they're not balanced or done well.

If I want to level my KOtBS from day 1 I should be able to do so - even if Mythic were to put a large "Work in progress" notice in char creation screen with a warning that the class is about to have a complete overhaul soon. When these classes appear they'll be at a severe disadvantage to existing ones simply due to not having enough time to advance. This could have long-lasting effects on global class balance.

Let's speak in wow terms...

it's kinda like blizz saying "we'll release MC but BWL, and NAX will come later"

For the sake of argument... let's say that each race has 1 zone for each tier... so that's 24 zones in total... now they said the game will be missing 4 cityes... that's 15% less content? yes... if you want to generalize... but personaly, i know i'll be busy the first 1-2 months just getting to lvl 40 with 1 char end trying to enjoy as much of the content i can till then... then i'll spend some more time looking at the 1 city on my side that IS ingame... then i'll maybe make an "alt" on another server to check the other side... so i have at LEAST 4 months of stuff to do... that is NOT counting the tome of knowledge... or NOT counting trying to get some cool loot from a PQ.. or NOT counting 1 month of basing heads in scenarios (and we all did that in wow if you played it)...

so... TONS of stuff to do while we wait on the other 4 cityes... and most importantly... there's a LOT of engema stuff there already...

but i DO have a concern and that is that maybe the other 4 races wont have ppl doing a lot of the content there mainly because they wont gather progression points for their race... so you might see a lot of ppl getting to lvl 5-10 and them moving to the zone where what they do actualy matters...

What some of you folks don't realise is the impact these decisions had on some of the "true" warhammer fans...from the tabletop game i mean. Taking out the empire knights and the "pureblood" orcs is a BIG mistake, regardless of class unstability. I know a lot of people who will be put off and think "the devs don't know shit about warhammer, Im not buying this game. They just bought the license to rip us off". Look I have a lvl 60 barbarian in AoC, yes in that game the bugs are awful (it's been a months and a few weeks since i stopped playing) but honestly? if the broken classes were not there the game could have done a LOT worse. Also consider this, do you think that only ONE capital city per race will offer you enough RvR and quests to keep going till top lvl?? I seriously doubt it. Now i played the tabletop game for many years, modelled, painted and bought many army books, and i honestly feel they took a WRONG turn taking four of the most representative classes for each race out. Also...um..orcs...living as "squatters" on some Chaos city? uh HELLO?! like they are the most unsociable race in the entire game! So to sum it all up for the last couple of months i was reading on a lot of improvements and so on a couple of new classes added and suddenly I log in and BAM!...at first sight i thought "haha nice try jokers", guess I was wrong. I had high hopes for the game to be the next best mmo...now i have high hopes that the game actually comes out and will at least be decent.

that's 4-8 months of end game content. 

I think you are factoring in the amount of time it took to start a siege before the other capital cities were cut. Also, you seem to think that they'll have this stuff in 4-8 months. My guess is that the endgame will take place in a 4-5 month window. 4-5 months does not seem like enough time for them to finish the other cities. Maybe, maybe, MAYBE one other pair will get pushed out. If everything goes really smoothly. But that never happens.

There are going to be a lot of critical issues that push cities to the back burner for a long time. When they finally get rolled out, everybody is going to be underwhelmed because they were rushed out ANYWAY and they only had to be 'good enough'.

Originally posted by Gazenthia

that's 4-8 months of end game content. 

I think you are factoring in the amount of time it took to start a siege before the other capital cities were cut. Also, you seem to think that they'll have this stuff in 4-8 months. My guess is that the endgame will take place in a 4-5 month window. 4-5 months does not seem like enough time for them to finish the other cities. Maybe, maybe, MAYBE one other pair will get pushed out. If everything goes really smoothly. But that never happens.

There are going to be a lot of critical issues that push cities to the back burner for a long time. When they finally get rolled out, everybody is going to be underwhelmed because they were rushed out ANYWAY and they only had to be 'good enough'.

 

The thing simply is, WAR's end game doesn't "run out" once you get the best gear.  I was merely stating that 4-8 months will  probably get you pretty set up.  But your still gonna play for the pvp experience.

If you look at wow terms, where the only point of arena was gear, the only point of bgs were gear, and the only point of raids were gear.  Then yes you'll be out faster.

The reason why beyond just a simple "not done-ness"(and why they aren't gonna delay the game for em) is that when people are slowly trickling into 40, if there were multiple sieges popping up at the same time, it would spread out the population at release.  Which while not game breaking, isn't the best thing either.

WAR is about RvR, if you don't like RvR then your not gonna be happy no matter what they do.

Right now you have 2 different end game raids. Defending yours, and taking the others, once the next set comes out(within 8 months, i'd bet money on it) you'll have 2 new raids to play around in.  And then 2 more 8 months after that.

But the game will still thrive.

And from what I've heard, the beta is pretty damn solid atm, and the critical issues, if anything, will be server related rather then AoCs "Stable servers, unstable game"