Originally posted by theguru22

Here's my big problem with ALL mmorpgs that are out of being released:

There's a general lack of consequence of action. Basically, everything you do in WoW is completely meaningless to anyone but you. Here's what I want, and I am well aware that it's rediculously difficult to implement; Meaningful PvP as well as meaningful PvE. Have my actions actually effect the game world and how it operates. I want to have quests that actually effect the state of the virtual world and provide my race/personal character with some sort of advantage. Have world PvP effect more than having a small combat or experience bonus.

Anyway, it may be a long way off, but it's something to shoot for. This is what sepparates good games from great games.

Ya I couldn't agree more.

Originally posted by Solude

WoW has two problems... its was released in 2004 with a graphics engine designed to accomidate everyone so by 2008 standards its looking dated and two, it came out in 2004 so the bulk of us have had our fill.  Doesn't make anything that has come since better, just different and after years in WoW that's really all it takes.  WoW is still the benchmark for what MMO quality and content should be though.

I agree with this.  Blizzard's games are always polished, good quality, superior UIs, and overall fun to play.

I just found WoW lacking in it's endgame and not what I wanted in an RPG game.  It feels more like an fps with no risk and no rewards.

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by fuzzylojik

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by fuzzylojik

Originally posted by AcidicTRG

As I said, 4 BGs + arena. 

Plus a dedicated PvP server.  I don't believe there's anything like this for any other MMO except maybe Fury which was designed as a PvP only game.

Actually daoc had more massive world pvp in it.  So does eve i hear but haven't tried it.

How many times have you engaged in end-game (max level) purposeful PvP in the world (while not battling for PvE objectives or ganking PvErs?)

Oh, I don't know, maybe a couple dozen times.  Have besieged Halaa on occasion.  Been known to break up a few Horde parties at the ring of blood.  Have fought over the towers in Terrokar Forest a few times.  Even beseiged Orgrimmar a couple times...oh but wait those are all either PvE objectives or ganking PvErs.  Guess I don't really need any "purposeful" PvP, I just like to engage in PvP I guess.  Guess that's why I chose a PvP server.  Not all of us NEED a purpose to engage in something we enjoy.

Ok no count how many times you've done world PvE and match up the numbers.  Halaa is a joke, the rewards are crap and the point of holding it is mainly for PvE purposes which outside of levelling and occasional farming is useless.  Sometimes its fun but really it does not hold a very big role in end-game PvP. 

Blizzards zone of PvP sounds like a step in the right direction but still.... 4 years too late and seems reactionary to WAR.  Why add it suddenly after 4 years?  Why talk about adding siege for 4 years and not do it?

Better late than never.  It's not like they have been doing nothing in the last 4 years.  They added a PvP honor system then revamped it, 4 BG's, Arena's, several PvP world objectives and a full blown PvP tournament server.  Slackers.

4 BGs and arena a scattered world objectives is not sufficient content addition vs what they have added for PvE.

Why shouldn't you compare it to all the PvE instances?  What was added to PvP in TBC? 1 BG, Halaa (which to me is fail),

Since it's fail to you, it's fail to everyone?  Personally I think it's a lot of fun.  The bombing runs are a great way for people with toons below 70 to help out and those geared for PvP get to rush the town.  What's not to like?  Is it used much?  Not a lot, but it's still there and I still see it change hands everyday.

Don't put words in my mouth.  Its fail to mean simply means its fail to me, when did i say it was fail to everyone? I don't use sweeping statements and neither should you.  Its lack of purposeful PvP imho.

No PvP quests.

Incorrect.  There are daily PvP quest in Honor Hold and Terrokar forrest which are actually pretty popular.  I see people capturing them all the time.  Granted that much of the time someone just runs in unapposed, but you'll see people fight over the objectives too.

Haha those are more like PvE quests.  There's hardly any opposition to that.  Anytime you see people running around without attacking another player and getting rewards, sounds like PvE to me or maybe PvNo-one.

No PvP progression.

Not sure what you mean by this.

If you don't get it this I guess you can't explain it.

No sieges or keep captures (cept for towers for PvE control) to date.

But coming in the next expansion.

Yeah that's what to date means.

No mainly PvP zones.

But coming in the next expansion.

Currently none right?

There maybe many aspects of PvE where wow shines but for the serious PvPer, its nowhere near what an massive pvp centric game should be.

That's because it's NOT a PvP centric game.  The PvE and PvP sides are fairly well balanced.  It might tip a bit in favor of the PvE side, but it's not as bad as you're making it out.

See I'm not making it out to be anything, I'm presenting it as what it is the 4BG and arena which is the only serious endgame past level 70 PvP that actually matters.  (Not incidentals on trying to level up and gain control or help friends levelling but actually getting something out of it like rewards, progression etc... just as you would in arena/BGs)

In a PvP centric game objectives won't be increasing PvE dominance, more like the other way around.

Like I said, it's NOT a PvP centric game.  It caters to both the PvP player and non PvP player.  Sorry that's not what you prefer, many do.

Many don't as well, and many only conform because of lack of alternatives.

There is not plenty of opportunities for PvP for everyone, because its not enough PvP for me and last I looked, I'm part of everyone.

A very small part.

Your point?  I'm still a part.  You said it was enough PvP for everyone and its not for me... so? It's not everyone.  Just retract that part.

Thanks for ur reply.  Keep it coming imo I love talking about PvP.

 

 

 

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Originally posted by Malvolentia
I just found WoW lacking in it's endgame and not what I wanted in an RPG game.  It feels more like an fps with no risk and no rewards.

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So what should it be? What should they be including? How should these changes be implemented to fit within the current framework? What should the 'endgame' consist of that would please you yet not alienate the majority of the comunity?

Just on your little statement there is it that the game is not what you want in an MMO or an RPG, because those are two very different things and you haven't mentioned the lack of RP in your list unless that is what you meant about the world being a lie?

It is all very well to come on to forums, piss and moan about how the game does not meet your needs, but unless you relay those issues to the proper people with some constructive and meaningful alternatives it is all just hot air! Just playing until you are bored, moaning that it isn't what you want any more and closing your account in a strop isn't going to make the changes you want magically appear is it?

If you want to change a game you need to get involved with it's developers, take part in the testing so you can give the proper feedback, e-mail in your ideas with some details about how they would improve the game experience. Of course the majority of what anyone suggests will fall by the way side as Blizzard will have plans in place for a lot of stuff already and may see how some things fit a little differently, but if you don't get involved at all then you have no chance of influencing anything and really no right to complain!

I don't care about your list.

I still enjoy it. Have played alot of MMORPG's  and I just found this one the most fun.

So please, why are you trolling man?

Because it is trolling. It game doens't suck, you only don't like it.

That's alot of difference.

Then again, I don't care about your list.

Originally posted by AcidicTRG

It's not like you CAN'T raid Orgrimmar or Stormwind, there is just no point in it.

There is a point in doing something in any video game: to have fun. What kind of player are you? do you want  just to be the best of the best? I personally like to have fun in games.

Originally posted by AcidicTRG

Of course there's nothing meaningful - it's a video game. If you're looking for some sort of fulfillment, you probably won't find it in ANY MMO.

Well that's a problem most mmorpg developers don't tend to. I like in mmorpg's to feel like I'm a hero when I finish a task or get some new weapons/armor or kill some powerfull guy. However you rarely have a feeling like that in today's mmo's.

-Vladalf

HAHA, I love it when people complain about grinding, thats all you ever do in any game you will ever play, it's the nature of gaming. Dress it up however you wish, wrestle with the semantics on the word grinding all you wish but the act of playing is the essence of grinding.

When it comes down to it, enjoy a game or not. You have the right to your list and the well thought out points just as some have the right to refute your list with well thought out points.

I for one keep going back to WOW because I still have fun there, it's a world i enjoy, and aside from the given tools that blanket global chat with assinine comments, there are some actual good people who make the social aspect worthwhile.

If everyone on these boards spent as much time developing themselves to create games instead of just complaining/defending them then we might actually see some great games emerge in our lifetimes.

I do have to ask though, what do you mean by the "world is a lie" comment? I am just not smart enough to figure that one out.

No matter what anyone says it has a high addiction factor and it's a good gateway into the MMO genre for new players. How many people who have never played an MMO know how important or useless "endgame" is? Huh? After playing WoW, they get an idea.

It's fun for a while it's certainly not the best but I'm comfortable saying it's the McDonald's of MMOs. Popular, decent in it's own right, has certain health risk factors if you're not careful (AHHH THE SUN IT BURNS! 8 hours raiding AGHHHH) but overall it's not half bad. Until you're bored of it.

Originally posted by jason_webb

 

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Originally posted by Malvolentia
I just found WoW lacking in it's endgame and not what I wanted in an RPG game.  It feels more like an fps with no risk and no rewards.

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So what should it be? What should they be including? How should these changes be implemented to fit within the current framework? What should the 'endgame' consist of that would please you yet not alienate the majority of the comunity?

Just on your little statement there is it that the game is not what you want in an MMO or an RPG, because those are two very different things and you haven't mentioned the lack of RP in your list unless that is what you meant about the world being a lie?

It is all very well to come on to forums, piss and moan about how the game does not meet your needs, but unless you relay those issues to the proper people with some constructive and meaningful alternatives it is all just hot air! Just playing until you are bored, moaning that it isn't what you want any more and closing your account in a strop isn't going to make the changes you want magically appear is it?

If you want to change a game you need to get involved with it's developers, take part in the testing so you can give the proper feedback, e-mail in your ideas with some details about how they would improve the game experience. Of course the majority of what anyone suggests will fall by the way side as Blizzard will have plans in place for a lot of stuff already and may see how some things fit a little differently, but if you don't get involved at all then you have no chance of influencing anything and really no right to complain!

Well for starters, how about a death penalty?  No death penalty = fps.  A death penalty could easily be implemented, but it's a soft MMO so it most likely won't happen.

I don't see how an actual war as advertised would "alienate" the community.  Blizzard has alienated a lot of its pvp with their controled instances and grabass ctf games.  Where's the war?

The developers do not care what people want.  They want to optimize the game for banking.  Not for pleasing the community.  It's about keeping people addicted by tossing gear rewards in you have to grind for, not for having an enjoyable enviroment.  When I realized this I left.  When I realized the war wasn't happening outside of the minigames I realized what a joke WoW is.

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Originally posted by Malvolentia
Well for starters, how about a death penalty?  No death penalty = fps.  A death penalty could easily be implemented, but it's a soft MMO so it most likely won't happen.
I don't see how an actual war as advertised would "alienate" the community.  Blizzard has alienated a lot of its pvp with their controled instances and grabass ctf games.  Where's the war?
The developers do not care what people want.  They want to optimize the game for banking.  Not for pleasing the community.  It's about keeping people addicted by tossing gear rewards in you have to grind for, not for having an enjoyable enviroment.  When I realized this I left.  When I realized the war wasn't happening outside of the minigames I realized what a joke WoW is.
 
 

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From a personal perspective, the only thing that a death penalty would do in this game is punish new players as you only tend to die a lot when you are just learning the game. If you are on your 2nd, 3rd, 10th toon it is very rare that you die in the normal course of play anyway, so i don;t see what it would add to the game, in fact the only people i can see it annoying would be the raiders & PvP'ers anyway???

True that there has never been a 'war' as such in the game, even though some attempts at showing one have been put in from time to time, but again we need to wait and see what they do with this new open PvP area because if that is done well it could restore the feeling of us and them again.

I am a little annoyed about your last statement as you contradict yourself, as in another thread you complain that 'carebears' have ruined the game with their moaning and forcing Blizzard to make the changed that they way, which would mean that Blizzard do actually listen to their players and you can't have it both ways?? Again i would ask if you have ever actually taken part in any testing and supplied feedback or sent any suggestions in to the devs at any point because unless you are telling them what you want then they don't really have a chance to even consider it do they??

As for having an enjoyable environment, any MMO is what you make it and you will only get out of it what you put in for the most part. I enjoy the social aspects of the game far more than anything else and the 'perfect build' or 'tier kit' is a secondary consideration at best for me, but again it really depends on your gameplay perspective.

I dont play WoW anymore. But coming from someone that does not play it anymore. Besides SWG a few months after launch WoW has been the best mmo period. SWG / Eve Online / WoW have been the three most original mmos that did not or bearly took any ideas from any other previous mmo and thats what made all three of them great.  I have a feeling all the upcoming mmos are going to be blow outs. Warhammer looks like a WoW copy. AOC took to many ideas from wow and its filled with a bunch of 5 year olds that run around naked.  Eve online is just to time consumeing for the average american.

Originally posted by jason_webb

 

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Originally posted by Malvolentia
Well for starters, how about a death penalty?  No death penalty = fps.  A death penalty could easily be implemented, but it's a soft MMO so it most likely won't happen.
I don't see how an actual war as advertised would "alienate" the community.  Blizzard has alienated a lot of its pvp with their controled instances and grabass ctf games.  Where's the war?
The developers do not care what people want.  They want to optimize the game for banking.  Not for pleasing the community.  It's about keeping people addicted by tossing gear rewards in you have to grind for, not for having an enjoyable enviroment.  When I realized this I left.  When I realized the war wasn't happening outside of the minigames I realized what a joke WoW is.
 
 

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From a personal perspective, the only thing that a death penalty would do in this game is punish new players as you only tend to die a lot when you are just learning the game. If you are on your 2nd, 3rd, 10th toon it is very rare that you die in the normal course of play anyway, so i don;t see what it would add to the game, in fact the only people i can see it annoying would be the raiders & PvP'ers anyway???

True that there has never been a 'war' as such in the game, even though some attempts at showing one have been put in from time to time, but again we need to wait and see what they do with this new open PvP area because if that is done well it could restore the feeling of us and them again.

I am a little annoyed about your last statement as you contradict yourself, as in another thread you complain that 'carebears' have ruined the game with their moaning and forcing Blizzard to make the changed that they way, which would mean that Blizzard do actually listen to their players and you can't have it both ways?? Again i would ask if you have ever actually taken part in any testing and supplied feedback or sent any suggestions in to the devs at any point because unless you are telling them what you want then they don't really have a chance to even consider it do they??

As for having an enjoyable environment, any MMO is what you make it and you will only get out of it what you put in for the most part. I enjoy the social aspects of the game far more than anything else and the 'perfect build' or 'tier kit' is a secondary consideration at best for me, but again it really depends on your gameplay perspective.

A death penalty adds some risk into going forth with pvp.  No death penalty?  Just a bunch of people suiciding into eachother much like an FPS.  IMO it adds excitement and a risk and reward for pvp.

Lol.  The new "open PvP area"  I'll tell you right now what that's going to be and mark my words here.

  We know how Blizzard does "world pvp"  The new pvp area will be a worthless pit out in the middle of nowhere.  It will be far from questers cause we wouldn't want the poor babies questing experience interfered with on "PvP" server during a supposed war.  It will be secluded and hold no real weight in the world besides getting a couple pieces of gear.   After 2 months it will be a ghost town just like Halaa, EPL, and the other failed Control PVP areas Blizzard has attempted.  People want a war to interfere with other people.  Not play in controled playgrounds.

About my carebear statement.  What I said was Blizzard listens to the bank, and most likely they bent over and softened the game cause carebears came to a pvp server, got owned, then canceled their account crying about being pvped on a pvp server.  The only comments Blizzard is going to listen to are those on the account cancelation page.

Agreed on your final statement.

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Originally posted by Malvolentia
Lol.  The new "open PvP area"  I'll tell you right now what that's going to be and mark my words here.

We know how Blizzard does "world pvp"  The new pvp area will be a worthless pit out in the middle of nowhere.  It will be far from questers cause we wouldn't want the poor babies questing experience interfered with on "PvP" server during a supposed war.  It will be secluded and hold no real weight in the world besides getting a couple pieces of gear.   After 2 months it will be a ghost town just like Halaa, EPL, and the other failed Control PVP areas Blizzard has attempted.

About my carebear statement.  What I said was Blizzard listens to the bank, and most likely they bent over and softened the game cause carebears came to a pvp server, got owned, then canceled their account crying about being pvped on a pvp server.  The only comments Blizzard is going to listen to are those on the account cancelation page.
Agreed on your final statement.

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Well i will mark your words, but in the same token it would be nice to drop back when it is in to reprise this convo. As for a for a worthless pit in the middle of nowhere, they have already said it is a whole area about the size of Westfall smack in the middle of the continent, so that pretty much covers your first thoughts i think.

Again you contradict, because now you are saying that they only listen when people close their accounts and they lose money, yet you have closed your account along with countless others you would have us believe because of these changes yet you claim to have not been listened to???? Throw us a bone here!

Originally posted by Zorndorf

To all who post here to just bash on Wow and Wow-users ! : I would like them to stop posting.... on a WOW forum.

You ALL played Wow for 6 months to 2 years or whatever until you got tired of it. But YOU played it and long.

This has NOTHING to do with Wow: you are burned out and btw the game after patch 2.3 just got better and better in its end game. Period.

All those S H IT spawning from these guys just doesn't make sense, because they don't play it anymore and no longer have fun,

So they think those who do like it are morons, so they laugh at people who enjoy Wow.

You have to look at some of these posts HOW personal these guys get. Sickening really.

While the ONLY things they do is type MILES of text just to prove to themselves they don't like the game.

Well get over it MILLIONS in the western world like it and millions will like it even more after WotLK and the REAL open world Siege PvP Conan lacked.

And MMORPG's have NOTHING to do with the food industry either. Let the Director of Conan make a fool of himself, but be a little more intelligent than this guy.

What would YOU think of a Director of BMW stating that Ford was a MacDonalds car. :)))

Every game has flaws, to be a non-fanboi/hater you have to see objectively the good and bad of a game.  It's always good to debate the deficiencies/proficiencies of a game without getting personal.  If you haven't said anything good about a game or anything bad for that matter u probably fall into one of the above categories, because no game is perfect or all bad (although I'm sure there are ones that come close....)

Personally, wow has been a milestone in MMORPG development for me but a step back in massive PvP development in an MMORPG vs DAOC.

Originally posted by Lustmord

Originally posted by Hrothmund

Hmm, I manage to have a full brutal set and a nice PvE setup (Tier 6) while only playing for around two hours a day on average, I actually enjoy arena, and spend no time in battlegrounds.

But hey, maybe that's because I know what I'm doing.

More likely you're a Rogue.

 

I'm sick of WOW's craptastic pvp. I can't wait for the DAoC Server to open.

Wrong, I'm a druid AND I'm balance for PvP, resto for PvE.

Originally posted by jason_webb

 

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Well i will mark your words, but in the same token it would be nice to drop back when it is in to reprise this convo. As for a for a worthless pit in the middle of nowhere, they have already said it is a whole area about the size of Westfall smack in the middle of the continent, so that pretty much covers your first thoughts i think.

Again you contradict, because now you are saying that they only listen when people close their accounts and they lose money, yet you have closed your account along with countless others you would have us believe because of these changes yet you claim to have not been listened to???? Throw us a bone here!

Sorry I don't understand what you're trying to say here?  I never contradicted myself.  What I said was the only thing the developers listen to is what's on the account cancelation page.  I think you were trying to say otherwise. 

I'm just one person with an opinion on the game.  Do I expect them to change the game around just for me?  No.  What I said was the reason the game became so soft is to help all the whiners that couldn't manage on a pvp server.  Which we saw.  DKs, Instanced pvp, endless spawning guards, no loot off city bosses, etc..

I don't expect them to change the game for me.  I just left the game.

Well well well... another discussion of why WoW sucks...where do I begin?

• It has one of the most unbalanced classes in any MMO.
• Many call it World of Arenacraft or World of Meleecraft.
• Many people hate it for the fact that many people play it.
• It has something I like to call PvP killer. (Arena)
• Too many classes are weak against every single class.
• Only fun the first time you level your character.
• At  level 70, in one month you will get BORED!
• The Devs don't listen to the customers or tell them important facts.
• Not competitive at any level.
• Too easy to play.
• ...zzz...
• Did I mention it was boring???
• ...zzz.......zzzz...........zzzzzzzzz.........................................

Originally posted by Malvolentia

Originally posted by jason_webb

 

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Well i will mark your words, but in the same token it would be nice to drop back when it is in to reprise this convo. As for a for a worthless pit in the middle of nowhere, they have already said it is a whole area about the size of Westfall smack in the middle of the continent, so that pretty much covers your first thoughts i think.

Again you contradict, because now you are saying that they only listen when people close their accounts and they lose money, yet you have closed your account along with countless others you would have us believe because of these changes yet you claim to have not been listened to???? Throw us a bone here!

Sorry I don't understand what you're trying to say here?  I never contradicted myself.  What I said was the only thing the developers listen to is what's on the account cancelation page.  I think you were trying to say otherwise. 

I'm just one person with an opinion on the game.  Do I expect them to change the game around just for me?  No.  What I said was the reason the game became so soft is to help all the whiners that couldn't manage on a pvp server.  Which we saw.  DKs, Instanced pvp, endless spawning guards, no loot off city bosses, etc..

I don't expect them to change the game for me.  I just left the game.

The one thing I take exception too is that you say "whiners" or "carebears" dictate what happens with WOW because people can't make it on a pvp server. Do me a favor and count the number of full population pvp servers and the full population pve servers. PVP dictates nothing in WOW until WotLK because WAR is a threat for subscription numbers so Blizzard is beefing up their pvp. Whiners on pvp servers dictate nothing.

What dictates what happens in WOW is the casual player. Period. Do you think WOW has so many subs because all of those players are hardcore pvp'ers or raiders even? Nope, they are casuals. They play 1-2 hours a night. The largest age bracket is late 20s or 30s. WOW's numbers are what they are because they made a game that anyone can approach and enjoy. it is not complicated or hard to play; it is simply fun. Perfect, no? But just fun.

The problem, to me, is that Blizzard is now trying to make the game everything for everyone. Instead of focusing on one major area of MMOs, they are trying to make the game enjoyable and perfect for all playstyles: pve, pvp, raiders, arena (Battle.net) players, etc.... I think they are spreading theirselves too thin across all of these areas.

The other issue (and I somone [theguru?] maybe?) mentioned it earlier. I think the problem is risk versus reward. There is no risk in WOW. You die? So what! The raid wipes? So what! You die in pvp? So what! There is nothing to risk other than time. No death penalty, no corpse looting, no battles worth fighting to gain major advantages...... In DAOC or EQ, I actually cheered when I leveled! I was excited because I felt like I accomplished something. I loved it when we took a keep because it was a long, protracted battle and it affected the game world. In WOW, I level and there is nothing. There is no payout because you risk nothing. Anyone remember the hell levels in EQ? tell me you didn't feel an accomplishment when you got past one of those!

The key to the next MMO, albeit WAR, AION, TCOS, etc, is to find a way to balance the casual player with risk versus reward. That will be the next big game. Because WOW has now proven that casual players = major money (think the original EQ devs foresaw 10 million players?) every dev company knows how profitable MMOs can be. And its not the hardcore pvp'er, raider or uber-guild that they want. And just so you know, no, I am not a fan of the current easy risk versus reward in mmo's today.

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Originally posted by templarga
What dictates what happens in WOW is the casual player. Period. Do you think WOW has so many subs because all of those players are hardcore pvp'ers or raiders even? Nope, they are casuals. They play 1-2 hours a night. The largest age bracket is late 20s or 30s. WOW's numbers are what they are because they made a game that anyone can approach and enjoy. it is not complicated or hard to play; it is simply fun. Perfect, no? But just fun.

The problem, to me, is that Blizzard is now trying to make the game everything for everyone. Instead of focusing on one major area of MMOs, they are trying to make the game enjoyable and perfect for all playstyles: pve, pvp, raiders, arena (Battle.net) players, etc.... I think they are spreading theirselves too thin across all of these areas.

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On your first point, that was mine too, that it is the casuals who keep the game going and that is why the game has developed in the way it has in all areas like quick BG's for PvP, smaller raid numbers and so on..

On your second point, as you said it is what has made WoW such a success across the whole MMO community, in that it does not do one thing exceptionally at the expense of everything else but all things reasonably well.

The only game on the market at the moment that does meet the demands of all players while still employing an open ended style with a good risk vs reward system is EVE, it is just a shame it employs such a restrictive character and training system (ie only able to train one character at a time) along with such massive travel times, otherwise it could give all other games a run for their money.

There is one general reason: missing of general MMO concept. In most details WoW is great, but as game at all its too weak for me.