General Discussion

Who made up the term SandBox?

 The post you are replying to by jybgess, posted on 7/10/08 4:08:04 PM

Originally posted by Wolfenpride

A sandbox mmo is eve online, go figure it out yourself im to lazy to type anymore

I have to dissagree with this statement, while Eve is a very open ended game it is not a true sandbox game.  The reason being is your character development is curved and based on time.  The skill system in it is what makes it a non-sandbox game, however it is the closest a "Game" can come to a Sandbox game.  There is only 1 true sandbox MMO out there and that is Second Life, now don't get me wrong I am not promoting Second Life, personally I hate it simply because there is no "game" like structure to it.  There are no goals at all in the game that you can even search out, only create and do what you can do normally in the real world.  If you know how to code you can make things to sell, if you don't then all you can do is talk to people...like I said no real goals in the game.  Eve on the other hand does have some goals preset for you, those are the missions, but to advance you don't need to participate in them.  You could go your entire Eve Career and just Mine for profit.  Again though the skill system is the only thing really that stops Eve from being a TRUE Sandbox MMORPG.

Another game that came close I feel is Asherons Call, the only thing that really stopped it from being a full "Sandbox MMORPG" was the "levels" in it.  I know the level really didn't mean anything other then a marker because your experiance was spent on skills and attributes.  The only thing the "level" did was determine really when you got more skill credits to buy new skills.  Other then that AC is the next closest thing to a true "Sandbox MMORPG".

Originally posted by vesavius

 

I havent read Zorn's other posts in the thread you refer to, but from what I made out he wasnt saying here that WoW was a sandbox game, he was saying that it had sandbox elements.

I think he was saying that, in fact, most MMOs have sandbox elements?

I think he was also saying that a true sandbox game hasnt been made yet. Including Eve.

I actually agree with these points.

Eve as a true sandbox game would have started all the players off on an asteroid loaded with resources,with the potentiol to develop and craft the means to expand out into the galaxy and everything that entails. It would not have any dev infrastructure at all past the tools to interect with the world. It would have no given plots, history, or lore; all story would be player generated. It would have no non natural points of interest past those which the players build, it would have no economic forums (AH etc), factions, or guilds, except those which the players establish.

In short, the universe would be 100% player created and player driven.

I am not saying Eve isnt a good game, it obviously is, and it obviously has a stronger set of sandbox elements then most out there, but it isnt a true sandbox game.

That hasnt been made yet.

ATitD2 came closest I think, but that fails for pretty obvious reasons.

That thread which Zorndorf made actually similar to what he posted here, except he continuously posting what he said as "facts" and that all others are posting are opinions...

His own words throughout the thread keep repeating how:

1.) There is no true sandbox (ok, this is debatable, so it isn't really a fact.  Sandbox and Sandbox MMO do have some difference, so it comes down to the core systems/elements of the game to see if it fits the sandbox model.)

2.) Since there is no true sandbox, people's definitions are opinion (again, a bit bias, and still debatable)

3.) WoW is a sandbox game because he can do .....  (opinions, not facts...)

And when people, including myself, asking how WoW can be a sandbox with ............... (different people asked different set of questions relate to the same issues and the focus on core element/system)  Zorndorf do not answer the questions (since answering it would prove him wrong), and continue to claim he "proved" that WoW is a sandbox game...

As for sandbox and sandbox game, I believe that your opinion on player-driven vs dev-driven are not fully correct.  That definition is going by extreme, and may seem to be correct, (since people use sandbox vs linear as two extreme), but it is misused if you go to extreme.

Sandbox game doesn't mean it's all player-driven contents and such.  Player-driven contents are derived from of the core element Dynamic World.  The idea that sandbox game is player-driven is that since player-driven contents are the only thing around, they will be the only thing that affect the game-world, hence the feel of a dynamic world is created.

A sandbox game would have to balance between player-driven contents and developer-driven contents.  Most of the developer-driven contents should be re-designed to fit the sandbox game, so you can't just copy the quest system from games like WoW and LOTRO to fit a sandbox game.  It has to make sense to the sandbox game and not overpowering the player-driven contents.

As for sandbox game having no story, no plot, that's a false assumption to think that with it the game is not sandbox.  Like the tool to interact with the world, background stories and general plot are also there for players to develop the directions of the stories (so I actually think these would be interesting to have, where one server the force of good may be winning while on the other server the force of evil may be winning due to players' involvement.)  So having it doesn't diminish the core element of Dynamic World at all, hence this may or may not be used in sandbox game, but it's all up to the developers to design it.

Originally posted by vajuras

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Originally posted by Majinash

I think people are getting too complex.

 

A sandbox MMO is a game that drops you into a player driven world.  Players are given tools, and sand, and they get to make whatever they want with it.  just like when you were a kid in your sandbox with a shovel and pail.  You didn't have much fancy stuff, but you had fun.

 

a non-sandbox MMO has already made all the fun for you, there is no sand, its a playground or a "themepark".  its not about you creating content, its about having fun with what the devs made.  like when you used to climb around on the monkey bars or whatever.

 

simple eh? player driven vs dev driven.

While that might be a great definition of your sandbox, it is one few will play in.  Without dev created content, and lots of it, there are few that will be bothered with it.  Dev created content does not remove the sandbox moniker at all, it enhances it. 

I think rikilii's definition pretty much covers it.  Severius's though is flawed because he allows classes.  You cannot have character classes in a sandbox game, that is a big no no.

 

Well, definitions are not set by the amount of people that 'will play in them' surely? Surely they are set by the fact of what something is or isnt?

btw... can't have classes in a sandbox? Who says? Lotsa PnP RPGs use classes, and they are the ultimate sandbox games. Lets not say what can or can't be done too soon. Especially as a true sandbox has not been made yet.

Maj is right. It is simply player driven vs dev driven. Thats the only defintion that matters. It's not his fault that the majority seem to  lack the self motivation, imagination, and dedication to make a true sandbox a big hit.

Maybe a game like Spore, with mass market appeal, will change the landscape with in regards to player created content and the industry's view of true sandbox gaming. Who knows? maybe in 10 years there will be an indie dev will come up with something.

 

Again, pure sandboxes are here d/l the client for Second Life and it is already a big hit. It's just not popular here at mmorpg.com because most of us are achiever / killer subtypes

 

I do not consider SL as a MMORPG or a part of what we were talking about here so I didnt consider it. I can understand your point in mentioning it though. As a part of sandbox gaming, it has merit, but as a sandbox MMORPG? Nah... Might as well consider Spore a sandbox MMORPG as well if it is, and we all know that it isnt. Anyone making a true sandbox MMORPG could learn a lot from both though...

In my view, you would have been better using A Tale in the Desert 2 as an example, but the lack of combat in it is an obvious barrier.

Anarchy Online is a sandbox game.

i

Originally posted by Forcan

Originally posted by vesavius

 

I havent read Zorn's other posts in the thread you refer to, but from what I made out he wasnt saying here that WoW was a sandbox game, he was saying that it had sandbox elements.

I think he was saying that, in fact, most MMOs have sandbox elements?

I think he was also saying that a true sandbox game hasnt been made yet. Including Eve.

I actually agree with these points.

Eve as a true sandbox game would have started all the players off on an asteroid loaded with resources,with the potentiol to develop and craft the means to expand out into the galaxy and everything that entails. It would not have any dev infrastructure at all past the tools to interect with the world. It would have no given plots, history, or lore; all story would be player generated. It would have no non natural points of interest past those which the players build, it would have no economic forums (AH etc), factions, or guilds, except those which the players establish.

In short, the universe would be 100% player created and player driven.

I am not saying Eve isnt a good game, it obviously is, and it obviously has a stronger set of sandbox elements then most out there, but it isnt a true sandbox game.

That hasnt been made yet.

ATitD2 came closest I think, but that fails for pretty obvious reasons.

 

Ok, thanks for bringing me up to speed there :)

 As for sandbox and sandbox game, I believe that your opinion on player-driven vs dev-driven are not fully correct.  That definition is going by extreme, and may seem to be correct, (since people use sandbox vs linear as two extreme), but it is misused if you go to extreme.

Well, I think a definition *has* to be 'extreme' by it's very nature... It has to be concise to avoid confusion and argument. It certainly isnt a misuse I think to keep the term 'sandbox' true to what it started out as.... That is it's meaning a tray full of sand and the tools to manipulate it in whatever way you choose you. Noone gives the kids in the sand a script to follow, and noone tells them what characters to create, and noone tells them the ending that must happen for them to be considered a success. They make all that stuff up for themselves. Thats the definition of true sandbox.

Sure, use terms like 'semi-sandbox' or whatever to cover the middle ground, but lets not attempt to bury every game, no matter how many sandbox elements it has, under 1 term. It will just lead to confusing debates like the one you are seeing here.

EQ2 has sandbox elements, Eve hs sandbox elements, and, yes, even WoW has the odd sandbox element. I stand by the assertion that none of them are true sandbox games though. They would all fall comfortably under a 'semi-sandbox' category in  my eyes. I think any MMORPG that has an open free market and crafting would as well.

Sandbox game doesn't mean it's all player-driven contents and such.  Player-driven contents are derived from of the core element Dynamic World.  The idea that sandbox game is player-driven is that since player-driven contents are the only thing around, they will be the only thing that affect the game-world, hence the feel of a dynamic world is created.

A sandbox game would have to balance between player-driven contents and developer-driven contents.  Most of the developer-driven contents should be re-designed to fit the sandbox game, so you can't just copy the quest system from games like WoW and LOTRO to fit a sandbox game.  It has to make sense to the sandbox game and not overpowering the player-driven contents.

What you are describing is semi-sandbox :)

 As for sandbox game having no story, no plot, that's a false assumption to think that with it the game is not sandbox. Like the tool to interact with the world, background stories and general plot are also there for players to develop the directions of the stories (so I actually think these would be interesting to have, where one server the force of good may be winning while on the other server the force of evil may be winning due to players' involvement.) 

Again, you describe a semi-sandbox MMORPG. Nothing wrong with that of course, a great game could be made using this model, but it just isnt true sandbox.

Like I say, the closest true sandbox MMORPG ever made was A Tale in the Desert 2, and we all saw how that turned out... People hated it because they couldnt fight each other.

SoR also started going down the right path with 'The Ring', and hopefully it will continue to do so now it' coming back. In fact, you 'sandbox' guys need to get behind that game 100% and make ita huge success as far as I can see if you wanna encourage more devs to make more semi-sandbox/ sandbox games :)

IMO, Someone needs to buy the NWN1 engine, tart it up graphically, add some fuller MMORPG feature, put up a perpeptual server with a giant blank world on it, and let the creator community fill it. THAT for me would be a game worth playing :)