But yet they're still building a "revolutionary technology platform for online games"

http://razorwax.com/

i would think they just haven't taken the website down... besides if you want to argue such facts(not that i do) you have to remember razorwax is not longer around its Aventurine now...

Bankruptcy doesnt always mean you are done. It is normally a way to restructure your finances and prevent creditors from hounding you while you are working to get your affairs back in order.

Originally posted by namelessbob

Bankruptcy doesnt always mean you are done. It is normally a way to restructure your finances and prevent creditors from hounding you while you are working to get your affairs back in order.

What you're talking about is debt restructuring and it's done with the consent and often cooperation of your creditors, that's the normal way. Filing for bankruptcy to "prevent creditors from hounding you while you are working to get your affairs back in order" is, at least where I come from (and European law is far less lenient with bankruptcy), fraud and thus a crime. True enough it does not always mean you are done, the percentage of recovering businesses is from 7% to 20% depending on the source, though that's after many of their assets are liquidated.

Razorwax goes bankrupt, Aventurine buys Razorwax really cheap, everyone is happy...

Looks like more of a nice trick to me..

Bankruptcy is not what you think it is.

Greektown Casio here in Detroit filed for Bantruptcy but they are far from going out of business.  It is a way to just restructure your debt and at the sametime not allow creditors to file lawsuits to obtain there money.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Bankruptcy is not what you think it is.

Greektown Casio here in Detroit filed for Bantruptcy but they are far from going out of business.  It is a way to just restructure your debt and at the sametime not allow creditors to file lawsuits to obtain there money.

Bankruptcy is not what you think it is.

Debt restructuring is debt restructuring, you don't file bankruptcy for that. Now go and check who's deciding Greektown Casino's business plan and who's deciding the control of its assets. That's the creditors via court. Then check if the company is still around (or owned by the same people)  in 18 months from filing. If the debtor does not meet the court's, and by extension the creditors', expectations (including payment plans), it gets liquidated. Bankruptcy is not some "timeout" from debts and liabilities. Using it to avoid creditors is fraud.

I urge you to read about bankruptcy, especially chapter 11 which is what this type of company would usually file under so we can have a better discussion. I am, of course, only speaking about US laws, which are the ones I'm familiar with, but from what I understand European bankruptcy laws are even less lenient than this.

I understand you want to be optimistic about the unorthodox business practices of your favorite developers, but casting bankruptcy in a positive light without knowing what it entails is just ridiculous.

Edit: After some light research: It's Greektown Casino and it did change hands during the proceedings and is under the control of the courts who subject all business plans and decisions to votes between the creditors. It's now finishing an expansion with emergency financing (i.e. more debt) approved by courts and expects to be out of bankruptcy next year. Prospects look good, good for them, the courts were very lenient on them (financing approval, not strictly enforcing fines, etc) apparently because of wagering tax income to the city and the fact that some creditors own equity in the company. After all the creditors have a lot of say in the ultimate fate of a bankrupt company, and if they decided to keep it running until it runs black then this case is in the minority. Most of the times  (80% to 93% of the time, depending on the source) they choose not to. Whether it can succesfully emerge from bankruptcy, though probable, still remains to be seen.

Just one thing Bankruptcy laws varies a lot from one country to another.  No idea how they are in Norway.  In my country it means huge troubles and the future of the company will be in the hands of a judge who will be more interested in paying the creditors and the salaries of the employees than in business continuation.

Usually the judge will call the creditors and the employees as he/she start liquidating whatever the company has left.

In some cases the creditors and/or employees may become owners of the company, specially when there isn't enough to pay them with.

Depending on the kind of society that the company is, the judge may go after the owner's assests and/or directors.  If the directors made illegal stuff, they may face prision too.

Originally posted by Keeper2000

Just one thing Bankruptcy laws varies a lot from one country to another.  No idea how they are in Norway.

Here in Norway, bankruptcy CAN be a "positive" thing for a company, espcially when they owe lots of money, and at the same time only have virtual assets. Basicly, you lose the money tied up in the stocks/shares, but gets rid of your debts. A common procedure is to found a new company and buy these assets for almost nothing. It's illegal to sell cheap to yourself like this as a pre-bankruptcy strategy, but if the old company assets are virtual, or very hard to sell, the creditor who filed for bankruptcy will often settle for very little money instead of nothing.

Silvarch, you may know US laws, but certainly NOT Norwegain. Bankruptcy may not be a "timeout" from creditors, but a very, very efficient escape. And it's not a fraud, it's perfectly legal.

The most common form of company in Norway, is an AS (Aksjeselskap). This means a stockholding company, equal to British "Ltd" I believe. Whenever an AS goes bankrupt, the owner's private assets can ONLY be confiscated if there's some major frauds involved. This happens very rarely, almost never.

Employees will not lose any money here in Norway, if a company goes bankrupt. The government will pay the salaries, though it might take a few months. This is "Lønnsgarantifondet", in case any Norwegians doesn't know about it. They will even pay for what you should have been paid your next upcoming vacaction ("Feriepenger"), and they will also pay normal salary for "Oppsigelsestid" - this means they assume you were fired at bankruptcy date, but had your job a certain period of time after that, usually 1, 2 or 3 months, depending on how long you worked for that company.

Interesting to see how it differs. I stated I was only familiar with US laws, so I'm honestly surprised Norwegian law is so lenient on bankruptcy filings, sounds almost like consumer bankruptcy. AS is a form of limited liability partnership, that much I had gathered. Having read this, I don't see how it can be very positive, especially these stipulations:

"The debtor and/or its directors may be quarantined and barred for a period of up to two years from starting new business/accepting new directorships if thought unfit or if they are under criminal investigation. The court may also disqualify the debtor/a director from other existing directorships.

A director or a shareholder may become liable to pay damages in tort to creditors on the basis of negligence or wilful misconduct in their roles as directors and shareholders respectively."

which I believe are relevant to the case. You already sort of mentioned them though, and the proceedings were probably more in line with what you expect.  Unless they committed fraud, though, it's safe to assume they simply ran out of money. I just don't see how going bankrupt is a good thing.

Originally posted by Freemasons

But yet they're still building a "revolutionary technology platform for online games"

http://razorwax.com/

 

Sorry my stupidity. Couldnt find any info on Razorwax going bankrupcy? Can you fill me in?

Originally posted by Siduris

i would think they just haven't taken the website down... besides if you want to argue such facts(not that i do) you have to remember razorwax is not longer around its Aventurine now...

True. Aventurine is the company Developing Darkfall now, not Razorwax.

Originally posted by Silvarch

Interesting to see how it differs. I stated I was only familiar with US laws, so I'm honestly surprised Norwegian law is so lenient on bankruptcy filings, sounds almost like consumer bankruptcy. AS is a form of limited liability partnership, that much I had gathered. Having read this, I don't see how it can be very positive, especially these stipulations:

"The debtor and/or its directors may be quarantined and barred for a period of up to two years from starting new business/accepting new directorships if thought unfit or if they are under criminal investigation. The court may also disqualify the debtor/a director from other existing directorships.

A director or a shareholder may become liable to pay damages in tort to creditors on the basis of negligence or wilful misconduct in their roles as directors and shareholders respectively."

which I believe are relevant to the case. You already sort of mentioned them though, and the proceedings were probably more in line with what you expect.  Unless they committed fraud, though, it's safe to assume they simply ran out of money. I just don't see how going bankrupt is a good thing.

About the 2 years quarantine:

The common workaround for this, is to establish the new company in someone else's name, ie a wife, close friend etc, and when the 2 years are up, simply buy all the stocks for whatever amount they agree upon. During those 2 years, the official owner is usually just a silent partner. There has been lots of talk about restricting this, but I haven't heard anything suggesting this has happened yet. The quarantine is a "may" on paper, but will in reality be there in most cases.

The "good" thing about bankruptcy is to get rid of debts, but of course, this only applies if you're able to start over again. Which isn't always the case.

there was no bankruptcy. just another troll invention, move along.

How can a company that doesn't exist go bankrupt? Razorwax isn't doing Darkfall, Aventurine SA is. A GREEK company.

Originally posted by SignusM

How can a company that doesn't exist go bankrupt? Razorwax isn't doing Darkfall, Aventurine SA is. A GREEK company.

Same people. It's the company that was doing Darkfall and ran out of money before it all moved to Greece and Adventurine was formed.

Originally posted by dirtknap69

there was no bankruptcy. just another troll invention, move along.

translate.google.com/translate verifiable information on Razorwax's 2006 bankruptcy.

Originally posted by dirtknap69

there was no bankruptcy. just another troll invention, move along.

You really need to research a little before letting the fanboism do the typing. It's already been documented in a few threads here.

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Originally posted by Silvarch

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Originally posted by dirtknap69

there was no bankruptcy. just another troll invention, move along.

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translate.google.com/translate verifiable information on Razorwax's 2006 bankruptcy.

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How does that really relate to Darkfall in any meaningful way? Aventurine SA took over the development of the project, and took in all the Razorwax people back in 2002, leaving Razorwax just as a name and an address as a company.

The link even says that Razorwax has zero employees.

Originally posted by Freemasons

But yet they're still building a "revolutionary technology platform for online games"

http://razorwax.com/

 

but razorwax is no more developing darkfall. Aventurine took the project.