It seems that mmorpg.com is the land of whatever the opposite of a WoW fanboi is. Both sides of the spectrum are just as blinded by their own opinions.

Either way, WoW does have a light death penalty, but remember - its ease of use is what allowed it its popularity. Sorry to say, but you hardcore death people are a very VERY small minority in the grand spectrum of things.

Originally posted by eric_w66

BTW, WoW's PvP is more PvP than Eve's Blob PvP....just had to say.

I spent 2 years as a Anti- pirate in 0.0 space in EVE.

played WoW for 2 years doing Pre-made BG, Arena 5v5.

I'm sorry to tell you this but WoW is an absolute joke when it comes to pvp.

EVE, UO, DAoC, Guild Wars > WoW in pvp game play, risk v reward and balance.

WoW is a spectacular game if ur a hardcore 5 man dungeon/raid guy but Pvp is tacked on.

I'm a big fan of Blizzards other games (diablo,SC, WC rts) and blizzard did a great job on designing instances.

I don't hate WoW i played for a while and have 5 70's two with very high tier raid gear but saying WoW is better than Eve in PVP is crazy talk

Originally posted by streea

Honestly, the elitism and stupidity of many of these comments is just comic.

So the time spent farming for gold to pay for repairs isn't a huge risk because it won't take you very long to do it.

But the time spent grinding out lost XP, lost items, or finding someone to rez you (or you'll lose your stuff) is a huge risk.

It's all time-based risks though! But because a person in game A has to farm something for an hour while game B requires *gasp* TWO HOURS, somehow the time in game A isn't a risk but time in B is. So what if it took you four months to farm this one item? It's still just time.

If you take loss of time as a risk out of the formula, then even things like paying someone to rez you isn't a risk.

If you follow this, then even losing a character isn't a real risk because it's just a loss of time.

So what is risk then? Whatever you want to define it. So stop criticizing people for defining risk differently. Just because you think that a day of work lost isn't a real risk doesn't mean that everyone has the same amount of time, and risk, to spare.

Risk is that you have a chance to LOSE something! Like in EVE online that your ship can be blown right out of the sky.

If it's a T1 frigate then it's not such a biggie, but if someone flies around in a T2 ship (can cost between 80million to couple hundred million ISK loss if blown up! As you cannot insure T2 ships).

That's what I call RISK!

Losing time is a lame excuse, as if you feel you are losing time, then you shouldn't be playing in the first place.

So World of Warcraft, how you try to put it, it just doesn't have any RISK! Nothing, Nada!

So like many other posters say. Article would have been more credible and logical if they changed RISK into Time Spend or Effort so to say.

Cheers

Originally posted by streea

Honestly, the elitism and stupidity of many of these comments is just comic.

So the time spent farming for gold to pay for repairs isn't a huge risk because it won't take you very long to do it.

But the time spent grinding out lost XP, lost items, or finding someone to rez you (or you'll lose your stuff) is a huge risk.

It's all time-based risks though! But because a person in game A has to farm something for an hour while game B requires *gasp* TWO HOURS, somehow the time in game A isn't a risk but time in B is. So what if it took you four months to farm this one item? It's still just time.

If you take loss of time as a risk out of the formula, then even things like paying someone to rez you isn't a risk.

If you follow this, then even losing a character isn't a real risk because it's just a loss of time.

So what is risk then? Whatever you want to define it. So stop criticizing people for defining risk differently. Just because you think that a day of work lost isn't a real risk doesn't mean that everyone has the same amount of time, and risk, to spare.

Anyone who starts off their post talking about elitism and stupidity and follows it up with something so stupid is definately a stupid elitist. :p

Farming effortless monsters for an hour with no likely cause of death or consequences is not the same type of penalty as a game with a real risk of loss.  First of all the time involved to recover is much higher in old games like EQ1... Secondly the death penalties had much more to it than just spending 1 hour grinding mindlessly ez monsters.  You had to rely on.... other people... 

Originally posted by Guillermo197

Originally posted by streea

Honestly, the elitism and stupidity of many of these comments is just comic.

So the time spent farming for gold to pay for repairs isn't a huge risk because it won't take you very long to do it.

But the time spent grinding out lost XP, lost items, or finding someone to rez you (or you'll lose your stuff) is a huge risk.

It's all time-based risks though! But because a person in game A has to farm something for an hour while game B requires *gasp* TWO HOURS, somehow the time in game A isn't a risk but time in B is. So what if it took you four months to farm this one item? It's still just time.

If you take loss of time as a risk out of the formula, then even things like paying someone to rez you isn't a risk.

If you follow this, then even losing a character isn't a real risk because it's just a loss of time.

So what is risk then? Whatever you want to define it. So stop criticizing people for defining risk differently. Just because you think that a day of work lost isn't a real risk doesn't mean that everyone has the same amount of time, and risk, to spare.

 

Risk is that you have a chance to LOSE something! Like in EVE online that your ship can be blown right out of the sky.

If it's a T1 frigate then it's not such a biggie, but if someone flies around in a T2 ship (can cost between 80million to couple hundred million ISK loss if blown up! As you cannot insure T2 ships).

That's what I call RISK!

Losing time is a lame excuse, as if you feel you are losing time, then you shouldn't be playing in the first place.

So World of Warcraft, how you try to put it, it just doesn't have any RISK! Nothing, Nada!

So like many other posters say. Article would have been more credible and logical if they changed RISK into Time Spend or Effort so to say.

Cheers

Oh so so wrong, losing time is the ONLY risk, nothing else is a risk.  You have risk in any game because you lose time doing it.   The only reward is your enjoyment of such.  Some of you are so blinded by what you consign to risk you can't think outside the box.   Try stepping back and using that thing inside your head.

Originally posted by Cereo

I want there to be a Hardcore server, like from D2. Your character dies, YOU die forever. Sure you can make a new character but you get my point. How would this hurt WoW, I don't understand? Make ONE server hardcore, what do they have to lose? The millions that hate it can play on one of the other 999 servers.

Also, there is risk in older games. I played UO and I went to Fel to get my ore because less people were there farming ore. But my risk was a red would come along and kill me and take my ore. Now while it was really only time I lost, that is a risk to me. Doing a raid vs doing BG is not a risk, its just something different to do. Both ways lead you to EPICZ, in UO that led me to being SOL.

But that risk = a thrill for some, like me ... its not a thrill to risk raiding and doing BG instead.

What, pray tell, is stopping you from rerolling your toon when you die?  You can have this risk at any time.

But the problem is, the other players aren't doing that, are they?  Which drives you bonkers.

It's not about your risk and reward, obviously.  It's about everyone elses.  Misery not only love company, misery DEMANDS it.

Originally posted by SioBabble

Originally posted by Cereo

I want there to be a Hardcore server, like from D2. Your character dies, YOU die forever. Sure you can make a new character but you get my point. How would this hurt WoW, I don't understand? Make ONE server hardcore, what do they have to lose? The millions that hate it can play on one of the other 999 servers.

Also, there is risk in older games. I played UO and I went to Fel to get my ore because less people were there farming ore. But my risk was a red would come along and kill me and take my ore. Now while it was really only time I lost, that is a risk to me. Doing a raid vs doing BG is not a risk, its just something different to do. Both ways lead you to EPICZ, in UO that led me to being SOL.

But that risk = a thrill for some, like me ... its not a thrill to risk raiding and doing BG instead.

 

What, pray tell, is stopping you from rerolling your toon when you die?  You can have this risk at any time.

But the problem is, the other players aren't doing that, are they?  Which drives you bonkers.

It's not about your risk and reward, obviously.  It's about everyone elses.  Misery not only love company, misery DEMANDS it.

Exactly. Permanent death is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of, and anyone who wants it really REALLY needs to get their priorities in life straight. If you would absolutely love to put time into something and have it just become a complete waste after one mistake, to do the same thing again, you have WAY too much time on your hands.

Originally posted by SioBabble

Originally posted by Cereo

I want there to be a Hardcore server, like from D2. Your character dies, YOU die forever. Sure you can make a new character but you get my point. How would this hurt WoW, I don't understand? Make ONE server hardcore, what do they have to lose? The millions that hate it can play on one of the other 999 servers.

Also, there is risk in older games. I played UO and I went to Fel to get my ore because less people were there farming ore. But my risk was a red would come along and kill me and take my ore. Now while it was really only time I lost, that is a risk to me. Doing a raid vs doing BG is not a risk, its just something different to do. Both ways lead you to EPICZ, in UO that led me to being SOL.

But that risk = a thrill for some, like me ... its not a thrill to risk raiding and doing BG instead.

 

What, pray tell, is stopping you from rerolling your toon when you die?  You can have this risk at any time.

But the problem is, the other players aren't doing that, are they?  Which drives you bonkers.

It's not about your risk and reward, obviously.  It's about everyone elses.  Misery not only love company, misery DEMANDS it.

You fail to understand that part of the challenge is healthy competition. Most MMOGs are item centric or goal centric so healthy competition is part of the design, especially with PvP. It is just plain stupid to suggest players wishing for more challenge assign a more difficult ruleset for themselves if other players are not subject to the same ruleset.
 

Originally posted by RedwoodSap

Originally posted by SioBabble

Originally posted by Cereo

I want there to be a Hardcore server, like from D2. Your character dies, YOU die forever. Sure you can make a new character but you get my point. How would this hurt WoW, I don't understand? Make ONE server hardcore, what do they have to lose? The millions that hate it can play on one of the other 999 servers.

Also, there is risk in older games. I played UO and I went to Fel to get my ore because less people were there farming ore. But my risk was a red would come along and kill me and take my ore. Now while it was really only time I lost, that is a risk to me. Doing a raid vs doing BG is not a risk, its just something different to do. Both ways lead you to EPICZ, in UO that led me to being SOL.

But that risk = a thrill for some, like me ... its not a thrill to risk raiding and doing BG instead.

 

What, pray tell, is stopping you from rerolling your toon when you die?  You can have this risk at any time.

But the problem is, the other players aren't doing that, are they?  Which drives you bonkers.

It's not about your risk and reward, obviously.  It's about everyone elses.  Misery not only love company, misery DEMANDS it.

You fail to understand that part of the challenge is healthy competition. Most MMOGs are item centric or goal centric so healthy competition is part of the design, especially with PvP. It is just plain stupid to suggest players wishing for more challenge assign a more difficult ruleset for themselves if other players are not subject to the same ruleset.
 

Obviously, some people don't want a real challenge.  They want the ruleset to equalize everyone in the same way so that they don't have to work to hard to pwn the n00bies.

If the death penalty obsessed were really interested in a challenge, they'd willingly reroll every single time they die and desperately grind to catch up with those who do not.  To demonstrate their inate superiority.

But they don't.  I wonder why?  Why is it that these people are so concerned about how others play the game?

Why are these people INSISTING that WoW change to accomodate them?  They've got the reroll on death option available to them at all times.

Here's the deal: obviously market research has demonstrated that for many casual players, severe death penalties are a turn off.  As in a "screw this shit, I'm not paying  $9.99 a month for this sort of abuse" kind of reaction.

Which is not good for MMOs as an ongoing business concern.

Risk?? What risk? WoW got no risk, WoW only got timesinks. There is no penalty dying in WoW, except the passing of time. The gold you need for repairs are easilly earned back doing a few dailys. Its pvp got no risk. If you die while pvp'ing it only means you need to spend a little more time getting the same reward at the end.

To be honest, true risk dont fit well into todays mmo's. Permadeath, xp-loss, itemloss and all those things that made mmo'ers tiptoe through their mmo-worlds aint welcome but by the minority in todays mmo market. Allthough quite vocal at times they're hardly even a niche. That go for singleplayer games today too. Nowadays you bind quicksave and quickload to the left and right mousebutton. Gone are the days when if you died, you be stripped of all powerups, sent back to the start of the level or any other hash punishment for dying.

Originally posted by Cereo

Originally posted by nightrose

Until some intrepid game company invents a method that can shock you to death when you "die" in a game, the only thing you risk in any of these games is time.  Regardless of how much of a setback your avatar takes (money, equipment, XP, etc), these can all, -without exception-, be earned back after enough time is spent re-performing the tasks it took to earn them in the first place. 

 

While this is all obviously an opinion about what risk means, from your perspective there is no risk in putting all your money in the stock market than either. Because really money is just gained through an investment in time so really there is NO risks at all besides dying in real life or getting hurt beyond repair.

But I have a feeling you don't have all your funds invested in the stock market or in gambling because you in fact do believe in risk.

What can you buy with gold from (insert your current MMORPG here) in real life?  Zilch.  Cash, however, is used to buy food, shelter, medicine, etc.  In the case of the stock market there is some real risk, as lack of cash will indirectly cause you harm.

And yes, I do have money invested. 

Originally posted by slask777

Risk?? What risk? WoW got no risk, WoW only got timesinks. There is no penalty dying in WoW, except the passing of time. The gold you need for repairs are easilly earned back doing a few dailys. Its pvp got no risk. If you die while pvp'ing it only means you need to spend a little more time getting the same reward at the end.

To be honest, true risk dont fit well into todays mmo's. Permadeath, xp-loss, itemloss and all those things that made mmo'ers tiptoe through their mmo-worlds aint welcome but by the minority in todays mmo market. Allthough quite vocal at times they're hardly even a niche. That go for singleplayer games today too. Nowadays you bind quicksave and quickload to the left and right mousebutton. Gone are the days when if you died, you be stripped of all powerups, sent back to the start of the level or any other hash punishment for dying.

 

Even a timesink involves risk, because you're putting your time into it when you could be putting your time into something else.

Obviously, many players value the time they put into a game.  The entire level treadmill concept is based on this.  You put this much time into the game, you get a cookie in the form of the next level, with some additional abilities perhaps as a reward.

Frankly, it's enough of an annoyance for me to die in SWG or WoW or any other MMORPG because I'll lose something I've put the time into.  It's a pain to travel back to where you were from the cloner or the graveyard.  Buffs will be gone, you'll have to spend time getting those back.  You might have to repair some damage to your gear to give you the best chance of completing that quest.  Some quests are timed, you'll have to start all over from the start on those.  Likewise, you got that boss down to like 10% before you snuffed it, now you'll have to go through all that again.

What the designers are looking to do is make it so you'll come back and keep playing the game even after you die.  For most players, having too low a frustration threshold means they'll reach for that cancel button, which means developers don't get paycheck at end of month.  The developers are playing the risk vs. reward game, too, you know, but for higher stakes than the players are.

Originally posted by nightrose

Originally posted by Cereo

Originally posted by nightrose

Until some intrepid game company invents a method that can shock you to death when you "die" in a game, the only thing you risk in any of these games is time.  Regardless of how much of a setback your avatar takes (money, equipment, XP, etc), these can all, -without exception-, be earned back after enough time is spent re-performing the tasks it took to earn them in the first place. 

 

While this is all obviously an opinion about what risk means, from your perspective there is no risk in putting all your money in the stock market than either. Because really money is just gained through an investment in time so really there is NO risks at all besides dying in real life or getting hurt beyond repair.

But I have a feeling you don't have all your funds invested in the stock market or in gambling because you in fact do believe in risk.

 

What can you buy with gold from (insert your current MMORPG here) in real life?  Zilch.  Cash, however, is used to buy food, shelter, medicine, etc.  In the case of the stock market there is some real risk, as lack of cash will indirectly cause you harm.

And yes, I do have money invested. 

Good you fell on page to what I am saying, though you didn't realize. Cash is important to you therefore there is a risk. A MMO character is very important to people (not me or you, but to some people it is)therefore it is a risk to lose things they have. While one is a game and one is real life, they both equate to a risk in perception.

Or we can go the simple route: Time = Money = Risk :)

But in any case, since the idea of risk is a perception and really an opinion, its hard to win an arguement 100% defending either side.

For the first time ever I’m going to commit two of the cardinal sins of forum posting simultaneously, I’m going to comment on something I did not read properly, and I did not read any of the other peoples reply’s to the article properly either.

"RIvRE is everywhere, not just instances, solo play and raiding, but crafting, questing and even the auction house!"

Hold the phone! Since when did they implement Butt Crafting?!? lol.

p.s. I'm making a joke, and not grilling the author like so many others are doing. Lighten up people he already commented on why he titled it that.

WORST THREAD EVER!!

As I said earlier, it is clear that folks like you are the majority now, so have fun. I highly doubt the genre as currently assembled will miss those of us who have moved on from mmogs. It is yours now. More power to the way you like things, eh? :)

Can any of you people read?

Evidently not, as the article was NOT about how hard a death penalty a game has but about time commitment.

Nothing like completely sidetracking a discussion because you did not read the article.

Er, I did read the article.

I happen to think it is ok if interesting conversation branches off in to other sub-conversations. As a matter of fact, a discussion of what risk is seems appropriate in a topic that makes comments on risk vs reward.

I'm sorry if that's a little much for you to handle.

Regardless of wether were talking about time loss or a death penalty truth is that no mmorpg in the actual times is hardcore enough to cater to a self respecting mmorpg lover. When your character dies, not only should he stay permanently dead and permacancel your account; your pc should explode, jagging pieces of monitor into your brain and setting your house on fire. Anything below that level is carebear for me.