General Discussion

Ginding takes up probably 75% of the time spent playing an MMO.  So if you find a way to get rid of it, that's a lot of time to fill.  What are you going to put in its place?  Item quests?  In a PvP game, it's probably not that much of an issue, just make it all out PvP.  But is it possible to make a PvE game with no grind.  I think it is, but it takes talent.

I replace it with not playing.

Or sometimes alcohol.

Originally posted by Zindaihas

Ginding takes up probably 75% of the time spent playing an MMO.  So if you find a way to get rid of it, that's a lot of time to fill.  What are you going to put in its place?  Item quests?  In a PvP game, it's probably not that much of an issue, just make it all out PvP.  But is it possible to make a PvE game with no grind.  I think it is, but it takes talent.

Brain food.

For a SP game back in it's day, especially a FPS/RPG, Deus Ex had a novel way of keeping you occupied -- reading chapters from datacubes that blended into the storyline. Each chapter made you wonder, "hmmmm, is this a clue" (it wasn't a clue in the sense of opening something up, but why the situation came to be, and what and who can overcome it. DX was full of such references, even getting into heavy political discussions with NPCs -- some of it very much true). Clever script writer inserted chapters from G. K. Chesterton's book, "The Man Who Was Thursday", even...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Was_Thursday

You would pause fighting greasels and all, to stand there and read the datacube, and hoping to get to the next chapter in the next datacube (heck, one was locked into a cage even -- and I'm sure players used their valuable lockpicks to get it, too). It all blended in seamlessly to give that conspiracy feeling a more dreaded tone (you don't know who is your friend, or who will be one, ever).

Devs don't need the grind. Devs could make a game of growth, not just destruction. This time of the mind, instead of just the gonads.

Well I'd love to answer your question except that I don't know why it has to be replaced.

I barely play MMORPGs anymore and the ones I do play are free... so I do still know about grinding.  But I play RPGs more often nowadays, my favorites being The Witcher and Oblivion.  These two games don't have any grinding and if they do I am sorry but I never noticed it.

So grinding shouldn't have to be removed.  Instead I think that the games just need to stop revolving around it, maybe make it more tolerable.  I do understand how aggravating it is when the whole point of the game is trying to get better than your opponent.  However if that is how the game was designed it was never meant to be very entertaining to begin with.  So that might be the difference between single player games and multiplayer, less competition might mean more fun.  It is also just that the competition keeps you playing the game (which might again be a bonus for the modern P2P and Item-Shop MMORPGs).

I know I went off-track answering your question about how to replace grinding, and what to replace it with, but I honestly think that the developer is creating games with that implementation purposely. 

I have 128 played days on my priest and 12 days to lvl  , so its more like 5-10% of my playtime is girding and i HATE grinding bad . To me its all about grouping/pvp

Well to the guy above 1 post or so up single player RPGs evade grinding because they are constantly tossing new content your way. So character progression is actually secondary. The main goal is to complete the storyline (as we see with Bioware rpgs, etc)

MMO space something new would have to be tried out. There's a few worth ideas thats been posted in Developer's Corner. Basically it all boils down to giving players more toys to play with pve-wise

PVP wise MMOs seem to have a lot of longevity and reusable content however they tend to toss in mandatory grinds for gear and XP so don't have a pure pvp MMO to point to. in other genres you see pvpers play pure pvp games for many years tho. I know I played Starcraft forever and war3 / Dota still gets lots of playtime (just examples). Then there was the FPSes like UT. All those games are moddable in some way tho which extends their lifespan for many years

I could point to Guild Wars as good example but it non-subscription based. Grinding wasnt mandatory but purely optional. So I never felt like I grinded ever

Second Life was best idea ever too bad doesnt feel 'gamey' too me and all the sims seem adult oriented (not family friendly)- at least the ones that seem interesting roleplay wise

MMO developers stand to learn a lot from Deus Ex.  It should be a primer for anyone bothering to enter the MMORPG business.  Deus Ex was the most immersive game I've ever played.  I even played it two or three months ago and was still completely floored and amazed by the sandbox freedom of it.

An eight year old FPS is the next true evolutionary step that MMORPGs need to take.

---

Originally posted by vajuras

Well to the guy above 1 post or so up single player RPGs evade grinding because they are constantly tossing new content your way. So character progression is actually secondary. The main goal is to complete the storyline (as we see with Bioware rpgs, etc)

---

Play Deus Ex. It's one of the few SP games that is least linear (upto the ending, which becomes rushed). Total freedom to explore, and doing crazy things in the meantime (like climbing with LAMs and tear gas canisters) -- even after clearing the level (it stays cleared). It's a novel game, and anything but typical -- you just don't run through the levels with it. YOU get creative, not the NPCs (spent over an hour setting up a big explosion with trash cans as shrapnel/LAMs *grenades)/tear gas in the hotel lobby, up the stairs to the second floor. Very detailed to wipe out the mob -- you don't even get that goodness in any MMO, as the environment is dead [can't pick up and use 99% of it]). You can even complete the game without killing anyone, let alone sneak past the baddies.

It was designed that way. It's designed for YOU to use your brain. Not because of throwing out content; senseless quests; macros to do things because 1001 tasks need to be done to kill a rat; 80+ buttons to push (only 10 in DX as a hotbar); and not with 24 others to help you.

MMOs it's everything thrown in and praying it works. Often it doesn't, because real thought doesn't go into it's planning -- it tries to be a jack of all trades, master of none.

Warren Specter masterminded DX, and to this day he's not a fan of online gaming. Some reasons why. You lose so much for that longevity, from good storylines (why do you think the quests are so generic? It's just a blueprint to copy 1001 times); to even a feel of the world. Look at EQII, go into even a dungeon, do you feel creeped? Do you even feel a sense of danger? Heck, even the music doesn't reflect it.

Grinding was put in there because the devs run out of things to "throw at the player" to keep them busy. You get generic mobs to tide you over; generic quests; and really a generic interest in who/what/and where you're going. Game development in MMOs is the hook phase in the beginning and the "end game" (which never really ends) being the biggest part of the game. It's not how offline games are made, where the best content is in the grinding phase (level 30 to 60) in these MMOs. There is no crescendo phase in MMOs, it's a slow build to a fast and peaked ending. It's how and why gamers can be bored out of their mind by the time the "end game" kicks in.

That formula isn't working well, and the numbers of MMO players overall proves it. All these games on my left have player retention problems. SP games are expected to have an "end of life" in 2 years. MMOs are suppose to last 2x to 3x longer.

Wake up folks.