General Discussion

While boredom at works is a horrible thing for the company, I find it to be incredible productive as it gives me time to think about gaming in general.  I'd like to put out a question, and draw hypotheses from the forum users on this.

How would MMOs be different if there weren't a hard level cap?

My thoughts...

Pros: It often seems that upon reaching 70, many people feel that the ways in which they can improve their character's have been significantly diminished.  Most will play with their new max level character until they've gotten all of the reasonably attainable gear they can, and see the new places they can get to before either starting an alt or taking a break from the game.  The removal of a level cap, would theoretically, leave that avenue of advancement intact.  This would benefit many players significantly for these reasons.

1. There are a handful of players who are in a truly exceptional, tactically battle oriented, gonna take down the next boss no matter what it takes guild (Group A).  They excel at the methods of finding bosses' weaknesses and exploiting them in every way possible. They are so familiar with their group dynamic that they operate as a cohesive unit and are able to successfully complete dungeons that higher level, less skilled guilds are not.

Most every one else is in a guild where the guild leaders will look the solutions up online which group A found. Allowing everyone the ability to advance without artificial level caps would allow Group B to experience the same content as Group A, they would just have to spend some time advancing their characters beyond the minimum level requirements for the dungeon that Group A now tears through without blinking.

2. It keeps the treadmill going for the game devs as well.  As group A gets to the point where the dungeons are on farm status, new dungeons are introduced, Group A storms ahead, and Group B moves through the content at their own pace.

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In my mind I'm picturing a 3-4 month recurring timeline, where new dungeons are introduced, and new equipment is made available.  It seems like the succesful MMOs are doing this already, so this wouldn't be much of a change for them from a production standpoint.

Another key design mechanism for this to work, (in order to keep people from advancing in level beyond the next dungeon release) is the diminishing return of grinding out XP once you reach the highest current 'minimum level for success' of any one dungeon.  Remember how long it would take to get from level 98 to level 99 in Diablo 2? Not that severe at first.  Let's say once you reach the highest minimum required level it requires 50% more xp to level than it previously would have.  With the rate of xp required increasing by x=x+1% each level after that.  (if x=5, previous level xp * 150%, 156%, 163%, etc...)

Just thoughts here.  An idea to kick around, and gather ideas and other viewpoints from.

the only problem with a non-level capped game is when it comes to PvP.  Look around EVE forums, lots of complaining that you can "never catch up" to the players who started before you.  some people even say not to bother starting EVE now because its too late.

Without some sort of level cap a game will run into this problem.  Is it a big problem? not at all, its just some people saying that.  most people know that EVE's non-capped system works fine even for new players.

I honestly don't mind either way.  I hit level cap and enjoyed it in WoW.  I never hit cap in EVE and also enjoyed it.  however adding a huge grind isn't the answer in my mind, either creating a system where you can never cap (ala EVE) or simply having plenty of fun content at the cap (Guild Wars?).

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Originally posted by Majinash
the only problem with a non-level capped game is when it comes to PvP.  Look around EVE forums, lots of complaining that you can "never catch up" to the players who started before you.  some people even say not to bother starting EVE now because its too late.
 
Without some sort of level cap a game will run into this problem.  Is it a big problem? not at all, its just some people saying that.  most people know that EVE's non-capped system works fine even for new players.
 
I honestly don't mind either way.  I hit level cap and enjoyed it in WoW.  I never hit cap in EVE and also enjoyed it.  however adding a huge grind isn't the answer in my mind, either creating a system where you can never cap (ala EVE) or simply having plenty of fun content at the cap (Guild Wars?).

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What a load of bull. A 5 year vet only uses 1%-2% of his/her skills when flying a ship. A 2 month n00b who specializes in one ship class (say frigates or cruisers) can easily catch up to a 5 year vet in that specific class of ships. The only thing vets in EVE have going for them is that they can fly more ships and do more non-related ship tasks, ie mining, exploring, trading, manufacturing, etc. Given that you are only allowed to fly 1 type of ship out of station a 5 year vet can never truly bring all their skill points to bare in combat.

Not to mention that even a 5 year vet in a T2 battleship can be warp scrambled, webbed, and jammed by a 1 month old vet flying a Blackbird or Kitsune. Obviously you have never played EVE and have no clue about the level of depth in game play. Modules load outs and ship types in EVE play just as much importance as skill points.

Then again EVE PvP is based around the concept of gang/fleet warfare. A 5 year old vet flying a Dread Capital ship is going to need more then a few support ships/players backing him/her up or else they'll end up as a rather expensive ship wreck in space.

Originally posted by Majinash

the only problem with a non-level capped game is when it comes to PvP.  Look around EVE forums, lots of complaining that you can "never catch up" to the players who started before you.  some people even say not to bother starting EVE now because its too late.

 

Without some sort of level cap a game will run into this problem.  Is it a big problem? not at all, its just some people saying that.  most people know that EVE's non-capped system works fine even for new players.

 

I honestly don't mind either way.  I hit level cap and enjoyed it in WoW.  I never hit cap in EVE and also enjoyed it.  however adding a huge grind isn't the answer in my mind, either creating a system where you can never cap (ala EVE) or simply having plenty of fun content at the cap (Guild Wars?).

The only people I've ever heard complain about not being able to catch up are those that aren't familiar enough with EvE.  Yes, people have been there since launch training away at skills and have more than 60 million skill points but you don't need 60 million skill points to be competitive in EvE, far from it.

Anyway, onto the top of no level caps, I would say that in level based games you just have to have a hard cap somewhere.  There's more to designing a level than just having an XP requirement.  You have to code in what your characters gains at each level.  Sure you could come up with an algorithm that is the power curve of a certain class and be awarded X number of HP, Y stat increases, etc, but I feel you'd get watered down classes, abilities, skills, etc.

Caps and grinds aren't the answer. Character development is. Unfortunately, most of the time to develop your character like that = ingame store. Skills can't be bought or leveled quickly, so they go. Killing one monster solo isn't enough for ADHD/Red Bull types, so mobs groups/raids are the status quo.

You get caps because it makes game design easier, and keeps players on the bank roll. These MMO companies aren't going to make it easy for you to outgrow them, or leave.

Eve is a radical game. Only wished it wasn't open PvP, because I'd jump at playing that game long ago.

I think in a normal level based game like wow the goal for a lot of players is to reach max level. If there is no max level they may find that lack of goal means they give up on the game sooner than they would otherwise. Developers would have to find other ways of motivating players to continue playing, which for the general masses that play wow may be difficult. Also developers would have a hard time bringing out content fast enough for the harder core players.

If you had a skill based game where your skills increase and decreased dependant on how much you used them, that seems to me to be the ideal, although not without it's problems of course. You still have the problem of how to motivate your average gamer to continue playing long term.

Originally posted by UNATCOII

Caps and grinds aren't the answer. Character development is. Unfortunately, most of the time to develop your character like that = ingame store. Skills can't be bought or leveled quickly, so they go. Killing one monster solo isn't enough for ADHD/Red Bull types, so mobs groups/raids are the status quo.

You get caps because it makes game design easier, and keeps players on the bank roll. These MMO companies aren't going to make it easy for you to outgrow them, or leave.

Eve is a radical game. Only wished it wasn't open PvP, because I'd jump at playing that game long ago.

'Caps and grinds aren't the answer. Character development is.'

I agree.  Grinds are my biggest turnoff.  Character development can mean many things.  How do you mean it?

'You get caps because it makes game design easier, and keeps players on the bank roll. These MMO companies aren't going to make it easy for you to outgrow them, or leave.'

I wouldn't think that outgrowing the game would necessarily happen.  With the rate at which new content can be, and is already being, delivered I believe the devs could keep up with the demand for new content as players continue to level.  Note also that I said diminished return in my OP.  You would still gain from your efforts in the same way in which you always have, just not as significantly.  Upon release of new level appropriate content, the xp curve could be adjusted to come in line with character advancement at the previously established levels.  Players who had previously exceeded the minimum level for the dungeon, could keep the percentage of xp they had accrued toward the next level, and resume with leveling as normal.

Now I'm not trying to be combative. I'd just like to get a dialogue going for ways this type of system could work.  Reasons that it would be difficult to implement, to me, are seen as obstacles.  I welcome them.  Please go on.

I don't think a level cap is really needed.  It just restricts the player...If content is filled for a LONG time to come, then there is no need for a level cap, since players will be experiencing new things each level.  However, if there is no content aftre level X, then yes, there should be a level cap.

Originally posted by mike470

I don't think a level cap is really needed.  It just restricts the player...If content is filled for a LONG time to come, then there is no need for a level cap, since players will be experiencing new things each level.  However, if there is no content aftre level X, then yes, there should be a level cap.

This would be incredibly difficult for a developer to keep up on.  Since there are always the people that sit at home and play games for 18 hours a day seven days a week.  This is when a level cap is needed.  At the rate some people level the developers could never do anything other then make new content for the power levelers.