Originally posted by ddev

Here is a historical link of Razorwax opening its web service for news and features for DF:

http://web.archive.org/web/20020605063521/www.darkfallonline.com/news/index.shtml

Dated as early as 2001, there can be no doubt this game is in development for 9-10 years.  Stories about merging, scrapping, deleting, undeleting and whatelse are pure fiction, or simple rumors or...

Wishful thinking.

Well dear, you have already failed at your assumption when you posted this.

I could go further, and repeat what has been said billions of times already, but I'll keep it simple and easy to understand.

Razorwax? What's Razorwax? Razorwax hasn't existed since 2003 when Aventurine took over. Furthermore, current game's coding and engine has began it's life in 2003. What you are speaking of, which didn't have it's first line of code written in 2001, was transfered into the Recycle Bin in 2003.

Let's compare what you are saying to this, for clarity.

Mr. Bob "HAI, I HAVE A CONCEPT FOR A MOVIE BUT I WON'T START FILMING UNTIL 2 YEARS FROM NOW

*Two Years Later*

Mr. Bob "HAI, I'M NOW FILMING MY MOVIE!"

*Month into filming*

Mr. Bob "HAI, I'M BURNING ALL THE FOOTAGE I'VE MADE AND BEGINNING TO FILM ALL OVER AGAIN, WITH A NEW CAMERA AND A WHOLE NEW CAST"

Now, when did the movie we'll be able to watch actually SEE began its production? See my point?

Originally posted by HolyCircle

Well dear, you have already failed at your assumption when you posted this.

I could go further, and repeat what has been said billions of times already, but I'll keep it simple and easy to understand.

Razorwax? What's Razorwax? Razorwax hasn't existed since 2003 when Aventurine took over. Furthermore, current game's coding and engine has began it's life in 2003. What you are speaking of, which didn't have it's first line of code written in 2002, was transfered into the Recycle Bin in 2003.

Let's compare what you are saying to this, for clarity.

Mr. Bob "HAI, I HAVE A CONCEPT FOR A MOVIE BUT I WON'T START FILMING UNTIL 2 YEARS FROM NOW

*Two Years Later*

Mr. Bob "HAI, I'M NOW FILMING MY MOVIE!"

*Month into filming*

Mr. Bob "HAI, I'M BURNING ALL THE FOOTAGE I'VE MADE AND BEGINNING TO FILM ALL OVER AGAIN, WITH A NEW CAMERA AND A WHOLE NEW CAST"

Now, when did the movie we'll be able to watch actually SEE began it's production? See my point?

This isnt about Razorwax or Aventurine, this is about DARKFALL.  The "movie" we are waiting to see if still Darkfall. 

Updating things is NOT a restart.  How about this, was this a restart? -

Darkfall Alpha 1 will feature an updated engine (its gonna look alot better than what you see on our current screenshots), new character models, a new and improved interface, more spells, an autopatcher, and support for starting and operating Clans. We are also going to have a few monsters and animals in the Alpha 1.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020420163325/www.darkfallonline.com/features/comments/letter3/index.shtml

If they update graphics tomorrow, is that a restart?  Lets stop the insanity.  The game Darkfall was announced in 2001 and had been in some form of production well before that time, and of course is still in production today.

Now, if you still think the game was restarted from scratch in 2003, show me where the devs say that anywhere before 2007.  I can show you posts during that timeframe where THEY SAY beta is about to start and dont mention any kind of starting from scratch - 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007.

9 years is a looong time in the video game industry, moreso in the in the MMO industry. Darkfall was being developed at the same time games like Planetside, SWG, and CoX were being developed. A lot of it must be last gen.

This long amount of time spent in development does not augur well for Darkfall...Sadly I predict this game will be either vaporware or a D&L/Mourning style disaster.

Well reading trough Darkfall's features makes you dream and wonder how wonderfull it would be if it came true, but you soon wake up and realize you ware only dreaming.

The nice features they keep mumbling about are addicting when you start to read them, and you stick to them with the hope of one day they would eventually become true.

Sadly this game's story is more of Fairy tale then one of a MMO.

Originally posted by Theodgrim

Isane refuses to recognize the purpose of the thread, even though it is clearly stated.  It is to settle the argument about how long DF has been in dev.  It has nothing to do with accounting, belief in the game, man hours, or anything else.  The game has been in dev for 7+ years.  (I consider it 8 years, starting in 2000, but if you count the earliest planning stages, even longer)

Ah I see the point of the thread is just point scoring and getting one up on the forumn posters an ego type of thing i guess. How strange? to nit pick arguing on the total development time.

Great and this is relevant in what context, please explain because once you have the time period nailed down are you going to start comparing relative resource and timescales used so you can then start to use this as a benchmark to prove something?

The argument leads nowhere other than the fact you would like the game delivered in a more tardy manner(an assumption but i'm trying to work out the logic of this when there probably isn't any), or are you just trying to score points again as above.

I remember reading this a while back, I guess this puts it into context for me... Just look at the section where Tasos answers the question about long development. So this is how the developers see it, but you can put whatever spin you want on it.

http://www.shimmergloom.org/index.php?page=7
 

I guess you will find a reason why this has no relevance and will produce your own evidence elsewhere, but until end of 2002 the game seems to have been more of a concept as far as the people with the ideas are concerned.

And its a discussion there is no need for arguments or is this just a childish game you all seem to play here.

(Just had a incredibly severe JAlfrezi earlier so I am sat tyoing at some ungodly hour) I notice COORS yet again has added nothing yet again and that by you statement in reality you are agreeing what I am saying is right that this argument has no point other than to score points yes trolls with egos'.

Originally posted by Isane

Ah I see the point of the thread is just point scoring and getting one up on the forumn posters an ego type of thing i guess. How strange? to nit pick arguing on the total development time.

Great and this is relevant in what context, please explain because once you have the time period nailed down are you going to start comparing relative resource and timescales used so you can then start to use this as a benchmark to prove something?

The argument leads nowhere other than the fact you would like the game delivered in a more tardy manner(an assumption but i'm trying to work out the logic of this when there probably isn't any), or are you just trying to score points again as above.

I remember reading this a while back, I guess this puts it into context for me... Just look at the section where Tasos answers the question about long development. So this is how the developers see it, but you can put whatever spin you want on it.

http://www.shimmergloom.org/index.php?page=7
 

I guess you will find a reason why this has no relevance and will produce your own evidence elsewhere, but until end of 2002 the game seems to have been more of a concept as far as the people with the ideas are concerned.

And its a discussion there is no need for arguments or is this just a childish game you all seem to play here.

(Just had a incredibly severe JAlfrezi earlier so I am sat tyoing at some ungodly hour) I notice COORS yet again has added nothing yet again and that by you statement in reality you are agreeing what I am saying is right that this argument has no point other than to score points yes trolls with egos'.

I dont know how many different ways I can say this.  The point of the thread is to settle the argument.  Say it like it IS, not like anyone wants it to be - whether they are fans, haters, fanbois, skeptics, or whatever.  I am not trying to nail down a time to make some further point or accusation.  This is it.  There is no secret context.

In regards to your link.  As you guessed, I do indeed have a problem with it.  Lets take a look at the relevant section:

Long development: Not long at all. Darkfall started being properly developed at the end of 2002. Before that is was basically 4 very ambitious people (i.e. Erik, Claus, Kjetil and Ricky) doing their best to make a very complicated game that now has around 27 developers. Most of 2003 was spent organizing the work flow, getting the offices ready and training a whole bunch of new developers to use the tools with witch they are making Darkfall. So basically its been in proper development for less that 3 years.

Darkfall started being developed properly at the end of 2002?  Didnt you see the link that ddev provided?  It shows the game had screenshots, was in pre-alpha in EARLY 2002, and even included some public testers!  Please, go look for yourself.  The game is underway during 2002.

Further, your link clearly states "most of 2003 was spent organizing the work flow, getting the offices ready and training a whole bunch of new developers to use the tools with witch they are making Darkfall". 

Really?  If that is true, why did the devs say this:

8-3-2003

"Darkfall is entering closed beta testing in September this year. The closed beta is fully playable, with most core features implemented. We will be adding features and content during closed beta, while we gear up for the next beta stages"

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=4746

Or this:

9-30-2003

"Overall we're very happy with the progress, we don't have any serious problems, and we believe that we'll be able to deliver an advanced beta build for playtesting before long. "

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=5542

Obviously, they did not spend most of 2003 getting ready to start from scratch.  They are telling us the game is almost ready for public beta!!  Those are the DEVS saying this.  Dont you believe them? 

So again, I just want the truth.  When someone tried to tell us Aventurine was a "well respected defense contractor", I didnt buy that either.  When I kept hearing that Aventurine started over from scratch in 2003, it didnt ring true.  And the words from the devs at the time, do not match what was in your link. 

Simply...I just wanna know.

IGN Article

---

in 2001, we became aware of a Norwegian-based development team bearing an unusual name, Razorwax. It consisted of only a few people, not nearly the number some observers might have expected given the nature of the project they announced that August

---

---

It's getting close to the point where people will get the chance to playtest the game. If they aren't looking at Darkfall now, they'll probably wish they had been. :)

---

So, why the hell isn't the "game" playable by anybody 3 years later? "Soon" is a vague term, but it's not THAT vague.

Answer: The company that started off making vaporware credit card scams is still making vaporware credit card scams. They have made CC scams since day 1, and have never actually released a working game. I dunno' what it's going to take for people to finally shut the door on these asshats, but they are frauds and have always been. There is no Darkfall. Move on.

Darkfall in its current form has been in development since late 2004, anyone who gives you that 2001 bullshit are just trolls and pay them no mind.

Originally posted by Krogan

Darkfall in its current form has been in development since late 2004, anyone who gives you that 2001 bullshit are just trolls and pay them no mind.

Since 2004?!  State your proof.

...which you don't have.

its been about 8 years now.. and that is correct. the game was in the starting stages of development  in 2001.

---

Originally posted by Souldrainer
IGN Article

---

in 2001, we became aware of a Norwegian-based development team bearing an unusual name, Razorwax. It consisted of only a few people, not nearly the number some observers might have expected given the nature of the project they announced that August
... So the "game" has been in "development" for 7 years now. I don't trust the fanboy wiki page. I do trust IGN though, and they heard about the game straight from the devs in August of 2001.

It's getting close to the point where people will get the chance to playtest the game. If they aren't looking at Darkfall now, they'll probably wish they had been. :)

---

-- November 2005

So, why the hell isn't the "game" playable by anybody 3 years later? "Soon" is a vague term, but it's not THAT vague.

Answer: The company that started off making vaporware credit card scams is still making vaporware credit card scams. They have made CC scams since day 1, and have never actually released a working game. I dunno' what it's going to take for people to finally shut the door on these asshats, but they are frauds and have always been. There is no Darkfall. Move on.

---

lol you are such a pathetic fool. In 2001 Razorwax was formed by 4 norweigan guys in a basement, in 2003 they were offered a chance to go big and move to Greece starting over from scratch with Darkfall in a much more ambitious project. 2004 was mostly spend setting up office and recruiting the current 24 members of the team.

Originally posted by Krogan

 

---

Originally posted by Souldrainer
IGN Article

---

in 2001, we became aware of a Norwegian-based development team bearing an unusual name, Razorwax. It consisted of only a few people, not nearly the number some observers might have expected given the nature of the project they announced that August
... So the "game" has been in "development" for 7 years now. I don't trust the fanboy wiki page. I do trust IGN though, and they heard about the game straight from the devs in August of 2001.

 

It's getting close to the point where people will get the chance to playtest the game. If they aren't looking at Darkfall now, they'll probably wish they had been. :)

---

-- November 2005

 

So, why the hell isn't the "game" playable by anybody 3 years later? "Soon" is a vague term, but it's not THAT vague.

Answer: The company that started off making vaporware credit card scams is still making vaporware credit card scams. They have made CC scams since day 1, and have never actually released a working game. I dunno' what it's going to take for people to finally shut the door on these asshats, but they are frauds and have always been. There is no Darkfall. Move on.
 

---

 

lol you are such a pathetic fool. In 2001 Razorwax was formed by 4 norweigan guys in a basement, in 2003 they were offered a chance to go big and move to Greece starting over from scratch with Darkfall in a much more ambitious project. 2004 was mostly spend setting up office and recruiting the current 24 members of the team.

Then why was beta being announced in 2003 and 2004?

---

Originally posted by Krogan
lol you are such a pathetic fool. In 2001 Razorwax was formed by 4 norweigan guys in a basement, in 2003 they were offered a chance to go big and move to Greece starting over from scratch with Darkfall in a much more ambitious project. 2004 was mostly spend setting up office and recruiting the current 24 members of the team.

---

Quoting direct sources that are considered by many to be the industry gold standard makes me a pathetic fool. Calling a game out for announcing a beta in 2003, 2004, and 2005 that has not happened makes me a pathetic fool. Following the origins of this company back makes me a pathetic fool. Not everybody can be on their toes and stay vigilant like you, Krogan.
 

Originally posted by Krogan

 

 

lol you are such a pathetic fool. In 2001 Razorwax was formed by 4 norweigan guys in a basement, in 2003 they were offered a chance to go big and move to Greece starting over from scratch with Darkfall in a much more ambitious project. 2004 was mostly spend setting up office and recruiting the current 24 members of the team.

You sir, are not well informed.  Almost nothing you say is correct.

Razorwax was formed in 2000.  They had offices in Oslo, an investor (who lost $517,000) and started work on the 3D game engine the same year. 

http://www.warcry.com/articles/view//3222-Surly-s-Column-State-of-the-Game-Darkfall-Razorwax-and-Aventurin

What was happening in 2004?  Lets get it from the source, Tasos:

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=9970

All you have to do is read the Darkfall news forum.  For crying out loud, they leave a paper trail!  Quit listening to all the BS.  Go see for yourself and stop making me post link after link.

Originally posted by mike470

Originally posted by Krogan

 

---

Originally posted by Souldrainer
IGN Article

---

in 2001, we became aware of a Norwegian-based development team bearing an unusual name, Razorwax. It consisted of only a few people, not nearly the number some observers might have expected given the nature of the project they announced that August
... So the "game" has been in "development" for 7 years now. I don't trust the fanboy wiki page. I do trust IGN though, and they heard about the game straight from the devs in August of 2001.

 

It's getting close to the point where people will get the chance to playtest the game. If they aren't looking at Darkfall now, they'll probably wish they had been. :)

---

-- November 2005

 

So, why the hell isn't the "game" playable by anybody 3 years later? "Soon" is a vague term, but it's not THAT vague.

Answer: The company that started off making vaporware credit card scams is still making vaporware credit card scams. They have made CC scams since day 1, and have never actually released a working game. I dunno' what it's going to take for people to finally shut the door on these asshats, but they are frauds and have always been. There is no Darkfall. Move on.
 

---

 

lol you are such a pathetic fool. In 2001 Razorwax was formed by 4 norweigan guys in a basement, in 2003 they were offered a chance to go big and move to Greece starting over from scratch with Darkfall in a much more ambitious project. 2004 was mostly spend setting up office and recruiting the current 24 members of the team.

 

Then why was beta being announced in 2003 and 2004?

I decided to quote alfaroverall from Darkfall main website on this. Easier then to dig through it all again.

[QUOTE]

alfaroverall - Let's have some clarification, shall we?

2002: Plan to have beta in the very near future. This occurred before the existence of Aventurine, or even the idea of Aventurine, and so really you can't put this against them. You can say that forming Aventurine was a bad idea in the first place (though I doubt many would) but you can't really put this against them.
2003: Same thing, also pre-Aventurine.
2004: Claims about beta that you probably could put against them; I haven't read very many of these quotes so I'm not very well-suited to judge here.
2005: Beta signups are posted, with no real claims that beta would actually be soon. How exactly can you put this against them? Your own assumptions got the best of you.
2006: IIRC there was nothing here.
2007: There was an "internal target date" announced of Summer 07. The only thing you can put against them here is announcing their internal target in the first place.
2008: The first truly "official" statement that release by the end of the year.

So yeah...in effect, they've really only made one mistake that you can actually legitimately put against them, out of all this bunch.

Since this most recent claim is "official", however, combined with all the past "Soon" statements, if this particular deadline is not met, the game will most likely fail. Even I, a fairly extreme fanboi, would probably not make it through 2010 waiting for this game. I'd probably stick 'round these parts until they close down the forum anyway, but I would no longer be anticipating Darkfall's release.

[/QUOTE]

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?p=1415827&highlight=Aventurine+%2B+Razorwax+%2B+restart+%2B+2003#post1415827

Originally posted by Aragon100

I decided to quote alfaroverall from Darkfall main website on this. Easier then to dig through it all again.

 Easier, perhaps, but accurate - no.

alfaroverall - Let's have some clarification, shall we?

Too bad this post did little to clarify anything.

2002: Plan to have beta in the very near future. This occurred before the existence of Aventurine, or even the idea of Aventurine, and so really you can't put this against them. You can say that forming Aventurine was a bad idea in the first place (though I doubt many would) but you can't really put this against them.

 2002 is Razorwax, true enough.  Still talking about the same game - Darkfall.

2003: Same thing, also pre-Aventurine.

False.  Razorwax cut ties with its investor in 2002, and by early/mid 2003 were in Greece.  Tasos has never been part of Razorwax, he is Aventurine.  Here is Tasos in 2003:

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=554

2004: Claims about beta that you probably could put against them; I haven't read very many of these quotes so I'm not very well-suited to judge here.

Agreed, you can hold this against Aventurine.

2005: Beta signups are posted, with no real claims that beta would actually be soon. How exactly can you put this against them? Your own assumptions got the best of you.

Dont be ridiculous.  This was no typical beta signup.  It was clans, by invitaion only.  My clan applied and was accepted.  We were told how many "primary" testers we could have and unlimited "secondary" testers.  Aventurine requested contact info for all these testers, and it was provided.  In any case, Clan Beta has NOT started, and it has been over 2.5 YEARS.  By ANY definition of "soon" this is outrageous.

2006: IIRC there was nothing here.

No doubt I can go to the DFO forums and find it.  I wont even bother.

2007: There was an "internal target date" announced of Summer 07. The only thing you can put against them here is announcing their internal target in the first place.

No, announcing a target is not a problem.  Missing it by a country mile is.

2008: The first truly "official" statement that release by the end of the year.

So yeah...in effect, they've really only made one mistake that you can actually legitimately put against them, out of all this bunch.

Poppycock.

Since this most recent claim is "official", however, combined with all the past "Soon" statements, if this particular deadline is not met, the game will most likely fail. Even I, a fairly extreme fanboi, would probably not make it through 2010 waiting for this game. I'd probably stick 'round these parts until they close down the forum anyway, but I would no longer be anticipating Darkfall's release.

Fair enough.  Just keep in mind, even you have stated that given enough time and disappointment you will give up.  Remember that others have already been through all that.

 http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?p=1415827&highlight=Aventurine+%2B+Razorwax+%2B+restart+%2B+2003#post1415827

Thank you Theo, just feel like adding a bit here.

No one restarts EVERYTHING.  You can't say they jsut went and burned all of the papers, that stated how everything worked.  That they burned all of the notes about PvP, crafting etc. 

If they had done that, then they would NOT continue to say "beta is near-2003"  "beta is near! -2004"

It just makes no sense.

Originally posted by Theodgrim

 

Originally posted by Aragon100

I decided to quote alfaroverall from Darkfall main website on this. Easier then to dig through it all again.

 Easier, perhaps, but accurate - no.

alfaroverall - Let's have some clarification, shall we?

Too bad this post did little to clarify anything.

2002: Plan to have beta in the very near future. This occurred before the existence of Aventurine, or even the idea of Aventurine, and so really you can't put this against them. You can say that forming Aventurine was a bad idea in the first place (though I doubt many would) but you can't really put this against them.

 2002 is Razorwax, true enough.  Still talking about the same game - Darkfall.

Not the same game by far. Summer 2003 game were just about totally restarted, new game world, new coding and new game engine. Razorwax Darkfall had very little to do with Darkfall of today.

2003: Same thing, also pre-Aventurine.

False.  Razorwax cut ties with its investor in 2002, and by early/mid 2003 were in Greece.  Tasos has never been part of Razorwax, he is Aventurine.  Here is Tasos in 2003:

Planned beta 2003 is Razorwax planned one not Aventurine. Preparations for it started fall 2002, before the merge. It was a beta based on Razorwax development and Razorwax promises. Game under development by Aventurine now had nothing to do with this beta.

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=554

2004: Claims about beta that you probably could put against them; I haven't read very many of these quotes so I'm not very well-suited to judge here.

Agreed, you can hold this against Aventurine.

2005: Beta signups are posted, with no real claims that beta would actually be soon. How exactly can you put this against them? Your own assumptions got the best of you.

Dont be ridiculous.  This was no typical beta signup.  It was clans, by invitaion only.  My clan applied and was accepted.  We were told how many "primary" testers we could have and unlimited "secondary" testers.  Aventurine requested contact info for all these testers, and it was provided.  In any case, Clan Beta has NOT started, and it has been over 2.5 YEARS.  By ANY definition of "soon" this is outrageous.

Not one official beta date set by developers for a beta 2005. Signup yes but no date.

2006: IIRC there was nothing here.

No doubt I can go to the DFO forums and find it.  I wont even bother.

2007: There was an "internal target date" announced of Summer 07. The only thing you can put against them here is announcing their internal target in the first place.

No, announcing a target is not a problem.  Missing it by a country mile is.

No promices of a beta 2007 and no official release date set. So since no date is set there isnt anything to miss.

2008: The first truly "official" statement that release by the end of the year.

So yeah...in effect, they've really only made one mistake that you can actually legitimately put against them, out of all this bunch.

Poppycock.

Since this most recent claim is "official", however, combined with all the past "Soon" statements, if this particular deadline is not met, the game will most likely fail. Even I, a fairly extreme fanboi, would probably not make it through 2010 waiting for this game. I'd probably stick 'round these parts until they close down the forum anyway, but I would no longer be anticipating Darkfall's release.

Fair enough.  Just keep in mind, even you have stated that given enough time and disappointment you will give up.  Remember that others have already been through all that.

I been arround since 2001, have you?

 http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?p=1415827&highlight=Aventurine+%2B+Razorwax+%2B+restart+%2B+2003#post1415827

 

Originally posted by mike470

 

Thank you Theo, just feel like adding a bit here.

No one restarts EVERYTHING.  You can't say they jsut went and burned all of the papers, that stated how everything worked.  That they burned all of the notes about PvP, crafting etc. 

If they had done that, then they would NOT continue to say "beta is near-2003"  "beta is near! -2004"

It just makes no sense.

If you closely read everything there is to read about Darkfall youll understand they restarted just about from scratch summer 2003. The ambition level have been raised not just once but many times. They wanna make the game as good as they possibly can.

2005 they raised the bar for the game. Its one of the reasons they didnt go for beta that year.

Here is the old world map Razorwax had as a goal -

http://web.archive.org/web/20020407054828/darkfallonline.com/features/world/dfmap1_1.jpg

And here is the world map of todays Darkfall - the Aventurine map -

http://www.bkbhq.com/index.php?pageid=dfmap

Do you see the differences? New world map is way bigger and it has to be created from scratch which started in summer 2003 when the game just about restarted from scratch.

This discussion is stupid. Developers says im right and youre wrong. Who have more insight in the game, you nay-sayers or the Developers of the game?