I didn't read the thread, so I don't know if anyone said it, but...

Gygax is turning in his grave. They're destroying his franchise a couple of months after his death. Carrion feeders, or what?

This thread is rather entertaining to me.  My turn!  I noticed some people keying in on the rope use skill from old DnD.  SOOO, I am gonna step out and say in my campaigns it is actually a VERY useful skill.    Every good DM can tell you (and their group) that yeah, no shit you know how to handle a rope, and even a two year old can tie a knot in a rope.  Not a big deal, and that is not what the skill of rope use was about.  Not everyone has the ability to tie more complex knots, certain hitches that are taught in military and other such areas.  Learning those are not "Standard" to those professions in our life.  Guess what, you have to "Spend a skill point" to know how to do so.  And when the robots come to over throw the world, and you capture some of them, it may pay off to have someone in your group, or immediate area who knows how to secure restraints over our future over lords and delay the process a bit. 

As for converting the DnD system into one that uses the Trinity system, the idea sickens me.  Just stick with old fashioned multi classing.

(Hope people know how to wade through sarcasm.  Anyone bring popcorn?  I've got drinks!)

D&D4e has me worried. I haven't played it, so for all I know the rules may be utter awesomesauce, with sugar on top. But some of the stuff I hear... Like the Unholy Trinity showing up (even as some of the better MMOs work to dispense with it), like the stricter class structures, are parts of what turned me away from D&D in the first place.

Nowadays, I play games like Exalted 2e, White Wolf's New World Of Darkness games, The Riddle of Steel and Dogs in the Vineyard. Freedom-based point-build systems rule, here, with some guidance for the player who wants a particular goal. TROS, for example, has you choose your priorities between things like combat skill, magic ability, riches, noncombat skills, social status and whatnot. White Wolf's games set you up with archetypes of sorts (a Dawn Caste exalted is a warrior, a Twilight Caste is a sage and artisan, for example), but let you choose your own traits freely.

To be honest, D&D4e to me sounds like the kind of game that's intended for 12-year-old WoW-heads... But hey, maybe it'll work as a gateway drug and get them interested in 'real' roleplaying games?

The latest incarnation of D&D is a singular abomination.  If third edition was like watching a loved one suffer a stroke, then this is AIDS.   Where is the verisimilitude in tanking, for Christ's sake?  

I'll see you in game.   =)  

D&D4e is nothing more than a new d20 game. They could of, and quite possibly should of, named it something different, because it is. The only reason it has the D&D name attached to it is because they own it, and they can do whatever they want with it. If named anything else, it wouldn't of sold.

World of Warcraft already has a table top game, so over all the title of the post is a lie, D&D 4th Edition isn't learning from MMO's, they're changing D&D enough to be like WoW PnP so they can try and get some more customers.

I won't be playing it.

MMORPGs and PnP table top games are two different beasts, they offer completely different things, completely different environments. Both games give you the ability to play a role, hence role playing games. PnP table top games, you get to decide your role, you and the players of the campaign shape an ever changing world. In MMORPGs the role you play is defined by people you will never meet, in a world that rarely changes, and usually in ways just to keep customers and shut up people who incessantly whine.

i played it.  i hated the fact that they went for the WoW style of MMO's rather than the more intellectual (and in my opinion better) games.  however after playing it i think the system is playable and fun.  the thing that makes it so much fun is the new idea of everyone being able to do something in combat.  gone are the days when the wizard hesitates to use that last magic missile.

as far as the PnP>>MMO>>PnP thing goes i would MUCH rather see an MMO with limited powers (mana sucks).  i prefer to see things like choose your spells before and instance or once every hour rather than a cast crappy (compared to what they should/could be) weak spells.

same thing in 4E really.   except they counteracted the weak spells (at will spells) by adding in the "special powers" that can only be used once every 5 minutes or once a day

I must say I am impressed from what I am seeing and from what I have read thus far I find it far more appealing than the 3.0 or the 3.5 incantations of DnD's game engine. I like how it seems they finally realized that making complex rules for a game engine that obviously could not handle it would no longer work unless they created a completely different game engine . Instead of creating a new engine to run a complex game (which would alienate the entire DnD populace and reduce the number of incoming gamers due to its complexity and far removal from the previous game engine) they gutted the entire rule system surrounding their game and created a whole different rule set which I find refreshing. I also think this change finally puts DnD in its proper place as a high powered heroic fantasy game and not a half ass simulator with super powers. Honestly any one talking about an intellectual challenge or true customization shouldn’t have ever been being playing DnD instead you should have headed to GURPS for that level of play.

/sigh

AD&D inspired the cookie cutter MMOs like WoW.
Now AD&D "learns" from those...

It's a shame so many people think pen&paper RPGs = AD&D, because that means:
- the good p&p RPGs are only played by a few privileged ones,
- MMOs get inspired by AD&D too much, and we see no diversity on top of silly inherited game mechanics.

Originally posted by Devour

I didn't read the thread, so I don't know if anyone said it, but...

Gygax is turning in his grave. They're destroying his franchise a couple of months after his death. Carrion feeders, or what?

trust me,  if he hated the new rules then he would have said something about it, he would have refused to do PR for it (he did quite a bit)

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

nah, I can't really buy that.

any system that has taken into account such mundane things such as rope making or fishing (pen and paper I'm speaking about) has gone too far and has taken itself WAY too seriously.

I've DM'ed 2nd and 3rd/3.5 ed.

In my latest campaign, based on 3.5 rules, I introduced what I called "world skills," which were basically a set of additional skills that people could take and put points into on top of the usual DnD skills. These included things like fishing, gardening, drink mixing, ladder crafting, and so on. My players absolutely loved it, because it allowed them to make things they would usually just be able to RP, and turn them into actual game mechanics with real uses. For example the guy who could mix drinks could make dangerous potions that could be used as flask weapons. The guy who could fish could buy tackle and bait, then go to the deep seas and fish for treasure. So mundane skills DO have a use, but it depends on how creative your players are. Fortunately I play with a very experienced group, where everyone has over 20 years of DnD experience.

After reading through the 4th ed core books, I've come to the conclusion that in order to play it I'd have to seriously gut the rules. 3/3.5 needed some editing on my part to make it playable for my campaigns, 4 will need a lot. That said, 4's combat is somewhat streamlined on some fronts, which is nice, but a lot of things are missing or simply wrong. It does not, in my opinion, promote tactical and difficult combat. I want my players to fear death, to know that the things they fight could kill them, and that in order to win they must be on top of their game.

Originally posted by Devour

I didn't read the thread, so I don't know if anyone said it, but...

Gygax is turning in his grave. They're destroying his franchise a couple of months after his death. Carrion feeders, or what?

Well I would not go as far as saying that Gygax is turning over in his grave.  I can say this though.  I have talked with him on various messages boards and I can say for a 100% fact that he DID NOT like the 3/3.5 edition of D&D.  One of the main reasons is because it made D&D too complex. 

Hence the reason for him designing his own game(Lejendary Adventures) which is rules lite.  While he maybe might not have liked some of the changes of 4e D&D.  I am sure that he would have liked the fact that Wizards of the Coast at least made the game more accessable and easier to play.

I myself will always be partial to 1E AD&D(I did like 2E but not as much) but still I am optimistic about the 4E and will be getting it.  It sounds pretty interesting and if it truly is easier to play then that is great.  My wife has really taken an interest in D&D and maybe the 4E will be the way to go for her. 

I also really like how they are doing the online aspect of D&D.  The idea of a virtual gaming table is just brilliant.  It gives all us pen and paper rpg fans a way to play with friends easier.

lol it seems WoW is killing all around even the foundation of rpg games!! XD

As 1st Edition Player, I can tell you that many skills were made up on the spot by DM-Player interaction.

PLAYER:  "I'm going to tie my rope to my axe, try to throw it through the castle window, hope it catches on something, then swing over to the castle wall and climb through the window."

The DM at this point, might role some dice and actually use the results...

STRENGTH roll - top see if the character can throw that far, DEXTERITY ROLL- to see if they can aim that well, LUCK roll etc.

... or if she thought it was a good plan and it advanced the story,  she might just agree to let it happen.

That is something that 3/3.5/and now 4th edition rules have supplanted.  There was no rope skill or jump skill or throwing skill.  The DM and the player worked it out because the most important thing was the story, not the rule book.

I'm not saying that the new way is bad, but it is a definite shift.  And in most editions I think that there is a section about how the DMs should run their campaigns the way they want, regardless of the rules.

Will we ever see this type of playing in an MMO?  I can only hope, but probably not soon.

I usually like MMORPG.com articles... really.

but not this time. Being a DnD player since that time whem mmo was just Ultima, this articles sounds at least wrong.

When you talk about character roles, please quote a game where I choose  "Leader" as a role? It's not a new concept to form groups where each player has his role. It's not something that MMO is teaching, this concept exist since the first DnD version (waaaaay before mmo games), but they decide to call it classes instead of roles.

MMOs have been using terms like these to describe the roles of the classes for quite some time. Rounding out a solid MMO group is almost always reliant on having characters that can fill each of these roles. While the same has been true of Dungeons and Dragons in the past in a passive way, 4th Edition marks the first time that the game’s design has incorporated it and spelled it out in terms that are so familiar to online RPG players.

Well, since the beginning of DnD it was a wise choice to make a group with different classes... or imagine 5 people around a table playing a Cleric...

about the combat powers, news for you... they also existed all this time... in the 3rd edition it was called "feats / special abilities" but the 3rd version is treated like Abe Simpson. It was not about just saying "I swing my sword" and roll the dice, I'm sorry if you had this kind of RPG experience...

Previous editions of DnD have relied on standard attacks for melee characters with spell casters having a wide variety of choice in the spells that they cast.

an Human Fighter in DnD can have 21 Feats at 20th lvl... and you say that he didn't had ANY type of combat power and that they "copied" from the MMO Formula? wake up

still on the fighter (since you used as example), show me an MMO where i can Cleave my enemy...

I think you forgot to say that DnD 4th edition learned from MMO's the Experience and Level System too!!!!!
common...

Non-spell casters can now take advantage of specific attack powers that are gained through level progression in much the same way that characters in a standard level-based MMO gain new attack powers.

Not only the feats are gained through leveling up in DnD 3rd (and AD&D for instance), but we choose wich type of special-out-of-standard-attack to "buy" next level.

It's nothing personal, but you're threating this subject with less care than required.. DnD have a huge public and I believe that everyone who played some of the previous versions knows that special attacks and character classes are the oldest features of this RPG, not something learned now!

Now, instead of simply telling the DM that my fighter wants to attack, rolling a die to see if I hit and repeating as often as is necessary, I am able to say that I want to use “Spinning Sweep” (a knockdown attack) or Brute Strike (a heavy damage power). I still have to roll the dice to see whether or not I hit, but I am able to use more strategy and thought than I ever could before.

Playing DnD 3rd edition was not like that AT ALL... way too different... if you look even at AD&D (the second edition of the game, wich was developed 20 years ago you find special abilities and class powers (to not talk about classes templates) for every character role... how can you say "Now i'm able to use Brute Strike for more damage"... okay, before that we could do a Power Attack (a feat).  At first level I can have Power Attack and Cleave,  for example, and do a lot of tactics with it... imagine on the 20th... the variety of feats and special abilities, if you put together all the books made to 3rd edition, is more than ANY MMO.

MMO's have many lessons to learn from RPG games...  because in mmo the character looks all the same, just change the armor color. But two people playing as Fighters could be completely different, because you can choose wich type of fighter you want to be... and that depends on many decisions.... I'll have more dexterity or strength? I'll have combat feats or passive feats? I'll have social skills (diplomacy, for example) or action skills (move silently, spot, acrobatics, etc)?

It should be noted that 3rd Edition and 3.5 both allowed for some diversity in abilities for non-casters through the use of feats, but 4th Edition is where the combat powers really start to reflect those of an MMO.

"SOME" diversity? every character (don't matter the class) can take a look to a full page of feats to choose a few different abilities.... while the casters had only one or two (if human), the fighter could start with 3 feats... enough to make a lot of combinations.  More than any other... The rogue starts with up to 40+ skilll points, being able to buy more skills than any other... and in DnD I can actually use skills in combat and in other momments of the game... while in MMO's, the skills are the name of the system that looks like the feats system (without the freedom of do whatever i want to my char).

The content and the system of DnD 3rd Edition is a lot deeper and more original than any MMO on the market today.

My advice to you is that you research more before make an article like that, because people who plays DnD knows that you're wrong in this subject (sorry, no offenses here, trying to be constructive).
I really like the articles of mmorpg.com , but this time looks more like a marketing review due the release of this new version... trying to attract MMO players to DnD.

I say to MMO players: play real RPG too... it's a lot better, it's full customizable and you have total freedom to do whatever you want. But instead of using your computer, you use your brain. Instead of seeing numbers jumping up the monster's head, you play a ROLE  .... by the way, how is "character roles" new to you if the game is named ROLE PLAYING GAME? While the Massive Multiplayer thing looks more like a "play alone in your room with a bunch of people you don't know " (wich is fun sometimes) RPG could be defined as "gather with friends to play a character you create in a story you create with the rules that you like and having fun"

Or: this are two completely different things.

It's like saying that the World Cup is based on Winning Eleven

 saying that WoTC created an offline mmo ?!? okay... i though that mmorpg was an online version of pen and paper rpg... not the opposite

(really... "RPG is an Off-line Massively Multiplayer Online RPG" ....) paradox mode on

Originally posted by Arthineas

I also really like how they are doing the online aspect of D&D.  The idea of a virtual gaming table is just brilliant.  It gives all us pen and paper rpg fans a way to play with friends easier.

 

The thing is D%D isnt the first ones to come up with Virtual Tabletops that you can play pnp games on.  They have been around for years., some for free, some that have a one time fee.  The only thing that DnD is doing is adding a monthly subscription to it.

If your interested in other virtual tabletops check out : www.fouruglymonsters.com.  This is an online community that use and talk about different VTTs.

I've been playing RPGs (pen&paper) for almost 15 years now. Played many kinds of games and systems, and my faithful group has had its share of homemade systems.

RPG is about freedom - to be what you want, do you what you want. If we find a rule we don't agree with, we change it. If something in the story book isn't reasonable, we change it.

And if the new rules for D&D (for this discussion) don't please us, will bend them, change them, scrap them if needed. Heck, gimme the first edition of D&D and we'll have a blast. Gimme one die and we'll still have a blast.

Discussing systems is pointless - what matters is your imagination. Have fun!

D&D will always be AD&D 2nd edition for me (crica 1980 or so).  This is was before feats, and everything else that seemed to complicate the game playing.  The path it seemed to take after the 2nd edition was a game of mathematics by adding pluses and minues from all these different skills that were introduced, and forgetting about keeping it simple and fun.

Just my 2 cents...

---

Originally posted by rev_lazaro
The only thing that's learned is the generation gap in gaming.
D&D 3E opened up a whole ton of opprotunity and options for the D&D community to explore, and it explored it well. A great base system that was open to fan made creations to explore the possibilities of character. A detailed system for skills and cross classing that allowed people to develop the heroes they want to play -- both in story and in statistics.
4E, while I accept its existence and own the books, reminds me that the "new wave" of gamers come from a different background than we grew up with. We were the generation that lived off Nintendo and Text Based Games for the longest time, grew up with 2D sprites and slow dial up connections.
Even when we played the graphical games, to a degree we had to use our imaginations.
And we loved to tinker, loved to explore, love to mod.
 
Today, the kids have everything on demand, graphics that leave nothing to the imagination, and game systems that are more about balance and progression tracks than customization and exploration of development and styles.
Remember the games that had useless classes that were fun to role play? Now, everyone of equal level is capable and balanced with their tiered skill trees to be equally effective. The "Role" in Role Play is no longer the character, the story, and the involvement.....it's merely your position on the team. Who cares if you're the dragon-blooded prince of a fallen kingdom; do you know how to tank and hold aggro? That scholarly man over there, who's traveled the world and seen so many things and read so many lores-- they don't care about that, they need to know if he can stay back and heal or if he's spec'd for DoT/DPS.
 
This isn't a total bash on 4E....it's me feeling old all of a sudden.
 

---

Shouldn't you be on a porch somewhere yelling at some kids?

Originally posted by daquino

I usually like MMORPG.com articles... really.

but not this time. Being a DnD player since that time whem mmo was just Ultima, this articles sounds at least wrong.

When you talk about character roles, please quote a game where I choose  "Leader" as a role? It's not a new concept to form groups where each player has his role. It's not something that MMO is teaching, this concept exist since the first DnD version (waaaaay before mmo games), but they decide to call it classes instead of roles.

MMOs have been using terms like these to describe the roles of the classes for quite some time. Rounding out a solid MMO group is almost always reliant on having characters that can fill each of these roles. While the same has been true of Dungeons and Dragons in the past in a passive way, 4th Edition marks the first time that the game’s design has incorporated it and spelled it out in terms that are so familiar to online RPG players.

Well, since the beginning of DnD it was a wise choice to make a group with different classes... or imagine 5 people around a table playing a Cleric...

about the combat powers, news for you... they also existed all this time... in the 3rd edition it was called "feats / special abilities" but the 3rd version is treated like Abe Simpson. It was not about just saying "I swing my sword" and roll the dice, I'm sorry if you had this kind of RPG experience...

Previous editions of DnD have relied on standard attacks for melee characters with spell casters having a wide variety of choice in the spells that they cast.

an Human Fighter in DnD can have 21 Feats at 20th lvl... and you say that he didn't had ANY type of combat power and that they "copied" from the MMO Formula? wake up

still on the fighter (since you used as example), show me an MMO where i can Cleave my enemy...

I think you forgot to say that DnD 4th edition learned from MMO's the Experience and Level System too!!!!!
common...

Non-spell casters can now take advantage of specific attack powers that are gained through level progression in much the same way that characters in a standard level-based MMO gain new attack powers.

Not only the feats are gained through leveling up in DnD 3rd (and AD&D for instance), but we choose wich type of special-out-of-standard-attack to "buy" next level.

It's nothing personal, but you're threating this subject with less care than required.. DnD have a huge public and I believe that everyone who played some of the previous versions knows that special attacks and character classes are the oldest features of this RPG, not something learned now!

Now, instead of simply telling the DM that my fighter wants to attack, rolling a die to see if I hit and repeating as often as is necessary, I am able to say that I want to use “Spinning Sweep” (a knockdown attack) or Brute Strike (a heavy damage power). I still have to roll the dice to see whether or not I hit, but I am able to use more strategy and thought than I ever could before.

Playing DnD 3rd edition was not like that AT ALL... way too different... if you look even at AD&D (the second edition of the game, wich was developed 20 years ago you find special abilities and class powers (to not talk about classes templates) for every character role... how can you say "Now i'm able to use Brute Strike for more damage"... okay, before that we could do a Power Attack (a feat).  At first level I can have Power Attack and Cleave,  for example, and do a lot of tactics with it... imagine on the 20th... the variety of feats and special abilities, if you put together all the books made to 3rd edition, is more than ANY MMO.

MMO's have many lessons to learn from RPG games...  because in mmo the character looks all the same, just change the armor color. But two people playing as Fighters could be completely different, because you can choose wich type of fighter you want to be... and that depends on many decisions.... I'll have more dexterity or strength? I'll have combat feats or passive feats? I'll have social skills (diplomacy, for example) or action skills (move silently, spot, acrobatics, etc)?

It should be noted that 3rd Edition and 3.5 both allowed for some diversity in abilities for non-casters through the use of feats, but 4th Edition is where the combat powers really start to reflect those of an MMO.

"SOME" diversity? every character (don't matter the class) can take a look to a full page of feats to choose a few different abilities.... while the casters had only one or two (if human), the fighter could start with 3 feats... enough to make a lot of combinations.  More than any other... The rogue starts with up to 40+ skilll points, being able to buy more skills than any other... and in DnD I can actually use skills in combat and in other momments of the game... while in MMO's, the skills are the name of the system that looks like the feats system (without the freedom of do whatever i want to my char).

The content and the system of DnD 3rd Edition is a lot deeper and more original than any MMO on the market today.

My advice to you is that you research more before make an article like that, because people who plays DnD knows that you're wrong in this subject (sorry, no offenses here, trying to be constructive).
I really like the articles of mmorpg.com , but this time looks more like a marketing review due the release of this new version... trying to attract MMO players to DnD.

I say to MMO players: play real RPG too... it's a lot better, it's full customizable and you have total freedom to do whatever you want. But instead of using your computer, you use your brain. Instead of seeing numbers jumping up the monster's head, you play a ROLE  .... by the way, how is "character roles" new to you if the game is named ROLE PLAYING GAME? While the Massive Multiplayer thing looks more like a "play alone in your room with a bunch of people you don't know " (wich is fun sometimes) RPG could be defined as "gather with friends to play a character you create in a story you create with the rules that you like and having fun"

Or: this are two completely different things.

It's like saying that the World Cup is based on Winning Eleven

 saying that WoTC created an offline mmo ?!? okay... i though that mmorpg was an online version of pen and paper rpg... not the opposite

(really... "RPG is an Off-line Massively Multiplayer Online RPG" ....) paradox mode on

Being a gamer who owns a large amount of the second edition as well as the old first edition with all the little pamplet style booklets, I can see where you are coming from in this post.  I have to add, back with the older games, yes you COULD make special attacks such as sweeping attacks, and power strikes.  That was part of being inventive, coming up with new ways and using your own brain to come up with inventive ways to over come your opponents.  It was called personal initiative. I think that is one of the reasons some of the older gamers take exception wih the newer revisions.  All of the imagination and personal immersion levels (Maybe immersion is the wrong word here) that come from "becoming" more a part of your character whn you ROLE PLAY are being replaced by preset attacks.  A Good DM from "back in the day" would improvise according to what players would come up with. Player:  "I want to swing my axe in a large circle and try to knock some of the swarming ratmen back"  DM:  "Okay, make your hitroll with a -5 modifier" or some crap.  Maybe throw in a strength roll for knock back, or if hitroll fails, a dex roll to make sre you are not knocked down instead.  It saddens me, personally, to see things get so dumbed down (In my opinion!) and leaving less to the imagination of the players.  Overcoming scenarios should be about imagination, not some preset skills that keep people in a rush to get teh phat loots.

The Online Table is great idea but it should have been done 5-10 years ago.    The technology was there but Wizards never bothered with it.   It took WoW and MMORPGs to get them off their rears, but at least it's here now.