Originally posted by ThaneB

Originally posted by Gishgeron

 

  Interesting that you quoted me and then put words into my mouth.  I do not recall saying ANYONE (besides myself...and even then such a thing could only be inferred from my post, as I did not actually STATE such a thing) hated the game.  

  I've also never given a review of the game.  More so, I have not given a completely negative OPINION of the game either.  In fact, most times my "opinions" are focused on the company behind the game rather than the game itself, even.  If you'd like, I can classify my hate into two separate levels.

  A:  I hate Funcom (on principle) for ______ reasons.

  B:  I greatly dislike AoC for many design reasons.  I also dislike how they launched the game, and the quality therein.  But, and this is important, I actually defer THAT dislike back into column A as it pertains more to my hate of the company (for making such choices and failing on so many promises) than it does to my dislike of the game.

  The post you quoted was me being glad that someone finally attacked AoC from a design level (which is what I did initially, as the game was openly walking down a path which removes it from being anything LIKE the PvP experience they promised for years) instead just whining about release issues (which are important, and justified things to whine about). 

 

You called the game a "tread mill" mmo that is a review. You were calling the mmo crap. I haven't read any of your other posts how am I supposed to know that you don't just write completely negative reviews of AoC. The only evidence I have is the post you have in this thread. Do you expect me to read all your posts in this forum? What the heck man I've got a life.

  No, I actually do not expect you to.  I am quite fine with you only using what you read in THIS post to address me.  The problem here is that you "ad libbed" some parts.  You started to go into hyper "DEFEND MY BELOVED GAME" mode before it was even warranted.

  I called the game a treadmill because thats what it is.  The moment I read one of the leaders on the project stating that "raid gear should be the best" I felt what I felt.  I watched this situation unfold in other games, for the same reason.  I have no reason to assume this game will be different, and in fact have nothing but evidence from the devs themselves that it will be the same.  That's not a review, its an assumption.  An educated and rationalized assumption, but one none the less.  I take pride in what reviews I HAVE done (none for this game) and I would never sum up any game in just a few sentences.

  Also, there is a plenty LARGE market for "treadmill" MMO games.  Take a look around, there are 10 million players in one right now.  So calling one a treadmill isn't really the same as calling it crap.  It IS the same, however, as saying that this team really isn't "evolving" the genre liked they claimed.   If you want my 100% full opinion, they took a tired system used by 5000 other games and tried to sell it with pretty graphics.  They were so sure the IP and prettiness would sell their game that they sold it without even half the features they promised and without even coming close to properly bug testing their game.

  I hate Funcom because they just looked every last one of us in the face and said "We KNOW you're so stupid that you'll ignore everything wrong if we "promise to do better" and give you tits to look at".   They didn't even TRY.  Listening to them speak, and watching their actions, tells me that they are cocky and arrogant....and they have every right to be.  I'll even tell you WHY.  Because they were right.  I won't even bother wasting the page and a half it would take to list the major issues it launched with.  I won't bother ranting about how their design is setting them up to repeat well over half of WoW's mistakes (which they themselves actually fixed)/  I will say that Funcom was right, in that they COULD sell us that kind of quality and we'd LOVE it.

  What they did was sloppy, and now we have people like you crawling around to make excuses for them and defending them for every wrong action they took.  I wondered "why" for a few weeks...but then it hit me.  You guys DO love the game, and all it DID take was some pretty pictures and boobs to make you feel that connected to it.   You guys were so enamored by the "new" combat and gorgeous landscape that you completely ignore everything wrong. 

  Bah, I don't guess I blame you.  If you are having fun, then have fun.  I do hate knowing that the business model of "Give the babies a shiny toy to distract them while we make millions of a half finished product" is actually the BEST one out.   I hate it because I've endorsed it myself, with MMO purchases over the years.  We've been enabling them to make tons of money on half-arsed attempts, and its really sad because the other genres of gaming are moving ahead really well....and ours never will.

Originally posted by Gishgeron

 

You called the game a "tread mill" mmo that is a review. You were calling the mmo crap. I haven't read any of your other posts how am I supposed to know that you don't just write completely negative reviews of AoC. The only evidence I have is the post you have in this thread. Do you expect me to read all your posts in this forum? What the heck man I've got a life.

 

  No, I actually do not expect you to.  I am quite fine with you only using what you read in THIS post to address me.  The problem here is that you "ad libbed" some parts.  You started to go into hyper "DEFEND MY BELOVED GAME" mode before it was even warranted.

  I called the game a treadmill because thats what it is.  The moment I read one of the leaders on the project stating that "raid gear should be the best" I felt what I felt.  I watched this situation unfold in other games, for the same reason.  I have no reason to assume this game will be different, and in fact have nothing but evidence from the devs themselves that it will be the same.  That's not a review, its an assumption.  An educated and rationalized assumption, but one none the less.  I take pride in what reviews I HAVE done (none for this game) and I would never sum up any game in just a few sentences.

  Also, there is a plenty LARGE market for "treadmill" MMO games.  Take a look around, there are 10 million players in one right now.  So calling one a treadmill isn't really the same as calling it crap.  It IS the same, however, as saying that this team really isn't "evolving" the genre liked they claimed.   If you want my 100% full opinion, they took a tired system used by 5000 other games and tried to sell it with pretty graphics.  They were so sure the IP and prettiness would sell their game that they sold it without even half the features they promised and without even coming close to properly bug testing their game.

  I hate Funcom because they just looked every last one of us in the face and said "We KNOW you're so stupid that you'll ignore everything wrong if we "promise to do better" and give you tits to look at".   They didn't even TRY.  Listening to them speak, and watching their actions, tells me that they are cocky and arrogant....and they have every right to be.  I'll even tell you WHY.  Because they were right.  I won't even bother wasting the page and a half it would take to list the major issues it launched with.  I won't bother ranting about how their design is setting them up to repeat well over half of WoW's mistakes (which they themselves actually fixed)/  I will say that Funcom was right, in that they COULD sell us that kind of quality and we'd LOVE it.

  What they did was sloppy, and now we have people like you crawling around to make excuses for them and defending them for every wrong action they took.  I wondered "why" for a few weeks...but then it hit me.  You guys DO love the game, and all it DID take was some pretty pictures and boobs to make you feel that connected to it.   You guys were so enamored by the "new" combat and gorgeous landscape that you completely ignore everything wrong. 

 

 

  Bah, I don't guess I blame you.  If you are having fun, then have fun.  I do hate knowing that the business model of "Give the babies a shiny toy to distract them while we make millions of a half finished product" is actually the BEST one out.   I hate it because I've endorsed it myself, with MMO purchases over the years.  We've been enabling them to make tons of money on half-arsed attempts, and its really sad because the other genres of gaming are moving ahead really well....and ours never will.

Quit acting like I'm a fanboy. I don't even play AoC anymore.I'm not trying to call AoC a great game. I am saying that I'm tired of people telling lies, like how AoC is a broken game.  Funcom lied and I didn't deny that( since you don't like it when people put words in your mouth don't put words into other peoples' mouths). I am not defending the game itself . I'm trying to defend all games that aren't reviewed fairly.

By the way I like how you completely degrade AoC players. Yep you're right all I need is a game with nice graphics and some boobies.

Your post is a perfect example of a flame post. First you acted like you are being respectful then you attacked people on a personal level.

Originally posted by markoraos

 

Bugs aren't the problem.

The problem is the design philosophy behind AoC and, let's be honest, the lack of design philosophy.

You see, AoC is the perfect example of everything that has gone wrong with MMORPGs in the past 10 years. It is extremely linear, the RPG mechanics are extremely badly thought out (if at all) and the core gameplay design is on the level "wouldn't it be nice if..."

 

That's pretty funny cause I look at it that it hit all the right avenues.   Granted I'm only a level 29 Guardian, with 4 additional toons ranging in level 4 to level 13, but these are my views.  Morale of the story if you don't want to read below is that give the game a chance, get used to it, you may be shocked you enjoy it.

Combat:

The mechanics here are great, the fact that I don't have to just stand there and auto-attack and hit depending on my weapon speed actually make the game more interactive.  If I'm not hitting my attack keys, I'm not attacking.  If I'm not hitting my combo's I'm not doing any more damage than hitting normally.  If I'm not changing my attack location because of where the mob is protecting himself, I'm not getting off my maximum damage.  Casting is pretty interesting too as there are various casts and almost all classes have some sort of melee attack as well so when something is so close you don't have to rely on your cast timers.

Questing:

I did agree with your post that they could of had a better cause/effect relationship with the options you pick with your interaction with the NPCs handing out quests.  But the mechanics are there for this to become a future item.  Maybe even the way you are perceived to the other NPCs, a bitch or a nice gal.  Who knows, it may happen.  But overall, the questing is done very well.  The experience from questing works out fluidly, the quests roll with story lines.  Some gathering quests are too easy with the items just out in the open with no NPC challenge to pick them up.

Gathering:

When I first picked up the gathering quests, I thought this method is horrible.  But know that I have completed 3 of the 6, I find it pretty decent as it flows with the quests I'm doing.  Its kind of hard to just go 'gathering' and it is kind of a waste of time to do so as well.  Might as well go knock out the quests and when you come across a node to farm go for it!

Feat Trees:

I didn't understand them at first and now that I do, I'm efficiently placing feat points.

My complaints:

- The user interface needs more customization

- No DX10 support yet, and I'm really looking forward to it

My highlights:

- Decapitations/fatalities and the effects it has on the toon to help you keep going, chain kills also are awesome to get.

Recommendations:

Get this game, give it a whirl, get out of the city of Tortage and you will see your whole game change.

Originally posted by melwe

Originally posted by markoraos

 

Bugs aren't the problem.

The problem is the design philosophy behind AoC and, let's be honest, the lack of design philosophy.

You see, AoC is the perfect example of everything that has gone wrong with MMORPGs in the past 10 years. It is extremely linear, the RPG mechanics are extremely badly thought out (if at all) and the core gameplay design is on the level "wouldn't it be nice if..."

 

 

That's pretty funny cause I look at it that it hit all the right avenues.   Granted I'm only a level 29 Guardian, with 4 additional toons ranging in level 4 to level 13, but these are my views.  Morale of the story if you don't want to read below is that give the game a chance, get used to it, you may be shocked you enjoy it.

Combat:

The mechanics here are great, the fact that I don't have to just stand there and auto-attack and hit depending on my weapon speed actually make the game more interactive.  If I'm not hitting my attack keys, I'm not attacking.  If I'm not hitting my combo's I'm not doing any more damage than hitting normally.  If I'm not changing my attack location because of where the mob is protecting himself, I'm not getting off my maximum damage.  Casting is pretty interesting too as there are various casts and almost all classes have some sort of melee attack as well so when something is so close you don't have to rely on your cast timers.

Questing:

I did agree with your post that they could of had a better cause/effect relationship with the options you pick with your interaction with the NPCs handing out quests.  But the mechanics are there for this to become a future item.  Maybe even the way you are perceived to the other NPCs, a bitch or a nice gal.  Who knows, it may happen.  But overall, the questing is done very well.  The experience from questing works out fluidly, the quests roll with story lines.  Some gathering quests are too easy with the items just out in the open with no NPC challenge to pick them up.

Gathering:

When I first picked up the gathering quests, I thought this method is horrible.  But know that I have completed 3 of the 6, I find it pretty decent as it flows with the quests I'm doing.  Its kind of hard to just go 'gathering' and it is kind of a waste of time to do so as well.  Might as well go knock out the quests and when you come across a node to farm go for it!

Feat Trees:

I didn't understand them at first and now that I do, I'm efficiently placing feat points.

My complaints:

- The user interface needs more customization

- No DX10 support yet, and I'm really looking forward to it

My highlights:

- Decapitations/fatalities and the effects it has on the toon to help you keep going, chain kills also are awesome to get.

Recommendations:

Get this game, give it a whirl, get out of the city of Tortage and you will see your whole game change.

I agree with you........ give the game a try if you can.
 

Originally posted by Umbral

Originally posted by gestalt11

While there is certainly a good bit of hate in the MMORPG.com forums in general.  When we specifically consider the AoC forums people are often confusing vehemence or just even perfectly acceptable negative comments for hate.

 

To be sure there are haters here,  but I think there were more haters than in the TR forums when TR released.  Certainly many of the naysayers had far less in the way of rational criticism for TR than there is for AoC.  I did Beta for TR and did not buy because of some of the RPG problems I saw with classes etc.  So I am by no means a fanboy of that game.  And TR got hated on very badly.

 

But what strikes me about TR versus AoC is that both had decent releases bug wise.  And both got trashed for lack of high level content.  TR had a good bit of hype about being revolutionary, but I think for the most part TR was pretty honest about what was in the game and what the game would be I cannot say the same for AoC.

 

TR certainly lacked some polish but the game pretty much what they described.  People may have wanted other things but I do not recall anything major that was hyped up in one way or another that was not in the release.  Some people hated instancing other people wanted better classes or more content etc.

 

But there is a lot of vehemence because there are been so much hype, misrepresentations, and a lot of fanboys who don't listen and try to shout everything negative down.

 

The fact is there is ugly side to AoC in many aspects and there has been a concerted effort to downplay these and many posters are responding to that.  I personally hope AoC does not fail and have no real hate for the game, but I do think Funcom has been dishonest with its marketing and practices concerning the game over the last year or so now that I know what is truly in the game.

 

I neither respect nor trust Funcom, but I do not hate them or their game.

 

Gestalt11
 

Well, you probably like TR, right?

See, I never got into TR, but I never understood why so many people  just wanted to see TR fail...and it failed.

The ugly side of AoC is not bigger than TR, Lotro or EQ2 at the release.

It is easier to blame the hype or the company of a game you dont play, but even if you get only TR as an example you would realize how mmo communites just seems to desire the fall of some games.

When a MMO has an issue the voice of the community can fix this issue and help the game company to improve the game, as in MMOs the vision of the player also means something.

I will give you a good example, see EQ2 now , it is a great game with  really good content, the content updates are based on what the game community want, but you always see people that doenst ( and never will ) play the game saying here how garbage some updates are...

The issues of a game only matter for people that play the game or will play the game, really, if you dont like the game design of TR, AoC or any game, just let it go, pure negative and hate messages of people that doesnt like the game has no value and will not bring anything productive.

This kind of attitude is hurting games and developers.

See, I dont like and I will never play TR or WoW, there is NO reason for me to just express 300 times I dont like and I dont play these games for these games communities.

 

...

very well said

Originally posted by ThaneB

 

Quit acting like I'm a fanboy. I don't even play AoC anymore.I'm not trying to call AoC a great game. I am saying that I'm tired of people telling lies, like how AoC is a broken game.  Funcom lied and I didn't deny that( since you don't like it when people put words in your mouth don't put words into other peoples' mouths). I am not defending the game itself . I'm trying to defend all games that aren't reviewed fairly.

By the way I like how you completely degrade AoC players. Yep you're right all I need is a game with nice graphics and some boobies.

Your post is a perfect example of a flame post. First you acted like you are being respectful then you attacked people on a personal level.

 

  A:  I never reviewed anything, or even came close to stating I had.  But, at this point we can write that matter off as simple misunderstanding since that it was you and I both have decided it was.  No harm, no foul.

B:  I did not actually degrade AoC players.  Technically, I just degraded the entire MMO playerbase.  Like, all of us.  I'm not even close to being sorry for it either...what I said was spot on.  Every one of us have been happily turning this particular market into a suits wet dream.  Imagine a place where you can do practically ANYTHING to your consumer and STILL get money from it!  Some, granted, do far worse than others in this regard (SOE comes to mind, but they're far from the only ones on that list) but in the end most (if not all) have been doing it this whole time.  I even went so far as to include MYSELF in the rant as one of those whom have contributed to this issue.  I hardly think I'm being biased...or even unfair.

C:  Even disregarding everything I said in A and B...if someone is so attached to their game that they would allow someone faceless person to affect them personally over the internet, its probably best they go ahead and endure this and learn how to deal with it emotionally.  I would not feel "attacked" or "hurt" if someone went on a tirade over "players-of-whatever-game-I-play".  I might, perhaps, disagree with them...but its best to never take anything over the net to personally.  Its impossible to really judge the depth of whats being said when you have no facial expressions of body language to gauge the matter with.  You just take it at face value because thats all you get.

  I will concede that I thought you may have been an "fanboy" (or fanboi if you really like to get under someones skin...for some reason seeing an "i" in the wrong place just sets flares off.  I know it does me when I see "kthxbai"...and I'm still not sure why.).  My first contact with you was in a retaliation against me (which, we now have seen to be miscommunication....hell, it happens to the best of us) in defense of the game.  You didn't even bother to address anything I actually said, and began assaulting me based on things I DIDN'T say (hence the whole "words in my mouth" matter) so I felt reasonably comfortable assuming you to be a fan.  I would kind of finger a hater to avoid defending the game or company at all.  In the very least, I'd expect them to trash me on a point-to-point bases for stating things that aren't true.

  Since you aren't a fan, I apologize for directing my message toward you...as it doesn't apply in this sense.  I'm not among the group of "evil haters" here though (you can see some of their work in the thread about some blog with a graph that was up yesterday....pure and utter garbage that was full of lies that the author really expected us all to be stupid enough to believe).  When Avery (one of the more well spoken super fans here) informs me of changes that are made, I do not continue to post about the problems it fixed in an effort to remain factual and honest about what I say in regard to this game.  I don't like spewing lies, and think that its far more productive for both hater and fan alike to remain as close to fact as you can.

Originally posted by ThaneB

You called the game a "tread mill" mmo that is a review.

So? That's what it is. It's just another level and gear PVE treadmill. If you honestly can't see that, then you just haven't played the right mmos. The whole reason it was brought up in the first place was a direct response to OP's question. OP asked why so much hate, and the answer is because us real pvp fans were promised that AoC was gonna be the next big pvp game, i.e. the OPPOSITE type of mmo of the pve treadmill type, but we got shafted when the devs said "screw it" and gave us exactly what they promised they wouldn't.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. We were promised Shadowbane 2, but instead got WoW 2.

Can someone please tell me what was promised to be in the game that not in there right now? 

I didn't read much on the game before I got it.  Also it looks like they have alot of things planed for the game.

For me i needed something new other than playing WOW.  AOC is a fun game, I will have to tell you all that I'm just waiting to play WAR and AOC is just keeping me warm till WAR comes out.