Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Thillian

 

I had to re-read this amazingly ignorant post, because first 10 times I couldn't believe my own eyes.

This is a perfect example of a wow subscriber that is so arrogant towards other mmorpg styles that he even tries to convince us about wow freedom. WoW is the most linear mmorpg out there. And sandbox games are the exact opposite. I can't think of any other MMORPG out there that would be less sandbox than WoW.

 

Please reread an 11th time then.

We are talking of Wow end game anno June 2008. You know the one with the epic end game gear from ALL choices of play (be it BG, Arena, Crafting, Solo, Heoric dungeons, Small raids or Big raids).

Not the old 2006 pure PVE Vanilla Wow you all HATE !

That game died in Nov 2007.

:))

The way I see a sandbox is this. Sandbox game is a living breathing world. There are no instances, totally seamless and open world. There's no limits on what you can do. You want to go in that dungeon, go right ahead, you're probably gonna die though. Community plays a big role too, you have to cooperate with other people and interact with them cause you can't hide in a little instance all day. You can make your way through the game as a hunter, fighter, crafter, assassin, merchant, whatever you want, from day one.

WoW on the other hand is one of the most linear games ever created. You have quest hubs that just dole out exp for tasks they like to call "quests", with big exclamation marks over their heads just incase you missed it. Then when you run out, they point you to the next hub. On and on until max level. Then at max level all you have left to do is get gear, and raid.

What happened to the Sand Box games?

Us, the players, happened.

With each a complaint about a free choice system, the sand box in each game was killed, little by little. It's not the companies fault, it's our own fault, when some demanded certain limitations to things that "seemed" to be potentially "too good", instead of creating many roads, which easily could end with too many problems, most companies chose a limitation of the first problem itself instead. While the feature worked perfectly on paper, it only took 1 player to find a way to enforce it's strength beyond the expected range.

The reason for less Sand box mmos, are none other than the players themselves.

When i look back, at some of my old mmorpgs i played, i now see a lot of restrictions all the sudden that wasn't there, back when i played the game, why? Because people complained about something in it they thought to be needing some "limitation", and guess what, as you go by more and more of this "limitation" happens, you won't notice it, day by day, only through looking back from the start till the present or end. All of which happened, because players complained about the freedom itself.

We humans, trully are odd creatures.

Originally posted by MiMoSeTH

Here, i present you a fair sandbox / linear comparison using the restaurant analogy, enjoy.

Linear restaurant: You go in, and there are 20 different dishes to order. You pick the ones you like the most. Fair and dandy.

Sandbox restaurant: You go in, and there you have all the ingredients that the other restaurant would have for their 20 dishes. You're free to pick the ingredients you want, how to combine them, and then free to use the cooking tools to make your own custom dishes.

See? pretty fair. And here's where the 'smarter or creative person' requirement kicks in. In a sandbox restaurant, you should have some skill to make anything palatable. I myself know only a handful of basic recipes, thus i'd personally go with the linear restaurant to enjoy my meal.

But what if you're a skilled cook? Wouldn't it be a better option to just have all the ingredients and the freedom to mix and match as you see fit? Wouldn't the results satisfy you more than any pre-made dish?

Same happens with the sandbox / linear design. If you have the brains and the tools, you can enjoy a better experience because you'll know what to do with them. Of course someone without enough brains won't have a clue about what he can make with the tools at his disposal, not enjoying the freedom of choice at all.

We see it everyday, in every situation, yet we still deny our own mental limitations. It's ok for some individuals to excel in physical activities and no one has problems aknowledging their skill, yet the same situation is totally denied when it comes to mental abilities, if not shunned at.

Expertly illustrated.

  You people disgust me. I won't say anything else about this thread, other than the fact that for two pages, everyone considered FFA PvP to be a "Sandbox" game. Wow. You people need to go play something, because you're all becoming delusional. I can honestly say, that there was almost no merit to any post in this thread, because it went from the people who glorified FFA PvP, to WoW bashing, in just one post.

  I really don't know what goes through people's minds sometimes. UO was a sandbox game, but not because you killed people at will, but because the players in the game shaped the world being played in. That is the definition of a sandbox game, get your facts straight. God damn.

Originally posted by Murais

  You people disgust me. I won't say anything else about this thread, other than the fact that for two pages, everyone considered FFA PvP to be a "Sandbox" game. Wow. You people need to go play something, because you're all becoming delusional. I can honestly say, that there was almost no merit to any post in this thread, because it went from the people who glorified FFA PvP, to WoW bashing, in just one post.

 

  I really don't know what goes through people's minds sometimes. UO was a sandbox game, but not because you killed people at will, but because the players in the game shaped the world being played in. That is the definition of a sandbox game, get your facts straight. God damn.

I agree. If you never played UO, SWG pre-cu or EVE you have no idea what a sandbox game is or what was involved.

I miss sandbox games, in fact the 2 mmo's i played for the longest, are sandbox.  Asheron's Call from 99 to 2002 and Anarchy Online from 2002 to 2005.   Since then i've been jumping from mmo to mmo, none being able to hold my interest for more than a few months.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Aguitha

I miss sandbox games, in fact the 2 mmo's i played for the longest, are sandbox.  Asheron's Call from 99 to 2002 and Anarchy Online from 2002 to 2005.   Since then i've been jumping from mmo to mmo, none being able to hold my interest for more than a few months.

 

They were replaced by BETTER game designs....

 

I call them spoon feeded mmo's.

Originally posted by MiMoSeTH

Originally posted by Mahni

Our "mate" gave his opinion, then you replied he was retarded, spewing retarded statements, that he had a narrow, arrogant, primitive mind, and that he was a moron and an idiot.

Should I take from your response that the "average" gamer of today isn't capable of acknowledging different opinions? 

I also was happy that the audience for these types of games are getting bigger.  I'm sad that some people can't respect other people's opinions, and have to lower themselves to crude insults rather than trying to effectively get their point across. 

In my opinion, if you want to add something constructive to the conversation, you could start by articulating what you think an exemplar of a sandbox mmorpg would be, rather than taking the position that you are the apple police without fully explaining your jurisdiction (though making it clear you are not in charge of other fruits such as melons and bananas).

 

Do i really deserve an 'ad hominem' reply for pointing out, way after he was explained several times why WoW isn't a sandbox game, how idiotic his statements were?

Or are you saying that no matter what any individual says, everything is correct since we can label everything as an opinion? Can we really get away with that?

I'm sorry but i'm not gonna buy it. Opinions are debatable. When something is clear as crystal, saying red is blue is not debatable, at all. It was clearly pointed out by other posters before me why it wasn't, yet he kept at it. Please tell me how's that called.

Maybe i got too carried away, i give you that, but that doesn't make my statements less true. Not even using fruits to illustrate a point.

You resorted to a socially inept method of name-calling when responding to someone else's opinion.  You feel you still have the moral high ground here and don't deserve an 'ad hominem' reply?

I agree that some people's opinions are factually incorrect.  Some people state opinion as fact when they should not. 

I suggested that you articulate what you think an exemplar of a sandbox mmorpg would be, and other than your prior reference to Saga of Ryzom, I can't see where you've done so - though you are making the assertion that it is "clear as crystal" what is and what is not a sandbox mmorpg.  As I previously stated, I think sandbox play lies on a continuum, and though I would agree that Ryzom was *more* "sandboxy" than WOW, I was making the point with the EVE reference that it isn't clear to me what makes up the definition of a sandbox mmorpg - and I can see that people's classification / categorization of these games is a wholly subjective exercise, rather than a fact such as a tomato being a fruit.

Let me give you an analogy, you seem to like them.  In my mind, it's like walking into a fast food restaurant where you are behind someone in line.  The person in front of you orders a hamburger and asks for them to "hold the beef", have extra lettuce, and extra pickles.  The waitstaff says no problem, our motto is "have it your way".  The person in front of you says "that's great, I love this place, I can get things just how I like like it, I love the freedom of choice here".  You start shouting obsenities, jumping up on the counter, and screaming that "this is not freedom - you are all retarted drones - it's people like you why no one makes the perfect restaurant!".

Well, in your fast food example, i would probably agree with the customer. Wrong analogy.

Zorndorf said, after getting his hamburguer from the fast food restaurant, 'This kind of service is better than that of a free buffet restaurant. You can only get hamburguers at those free buffet restaurants anyway, and they are something from the past'

Now, please, stop asking me to give my idea of a sandbox mmorpg. My initial statement had nothing to do with what my opinion is of a sandbox mmorpg, i was just pointing out why WoW isn't one of those. If he ever wonders why almost everyone disagrees with his statement, there are plenty of places to educate himself on the subject.

Some posters BEFORE me pointed out several features that illustrate differences between sandbox and linear, and he bent some of them, then ignored others, to accomodate his initial statement. No way in hell you're gonna make me feel wrong by pointing out the obvious: that his 'opinion'  was presented as a fact, and as a fact it was wrong. Period.

Technically, according to wikipedia's description of linar game play vs "sandbox" for "free world play", all MMO's could be considered sandbox.  Consider an older single player RPG like Baldurs Gate.  That game was very linear at times - you could not progress unless you performed a very specific sequence of steps.  Contrast that with NWN where a module could be designed that allowed the player to roam the entire world created for that module.  It was all up to the module designer how she wanted to provide transitions. 

Truly, I think a new term should be coined for this type of genre.  I'm not a wordsmith so I'll leave that to more creative type people, but I think the point that the OP was trying to make is also not quite "sandbox" as some people have already mentioned.  The inclusion of FFA pvp does not preclude any specific type of economy or character development.  You could have a complete player driven economy, ala Eve and somewhat SWG pre-cu and cu, or you could have a completely designer driven economy, ala swg NGE, AoC, and to a large extent WoW.  In WoW, the only thing in the economy that is player controlled is crafting resources, and only very specific crafting resources will make you money.  Most other items are blue or purple items are looted dungeon content which means a raid or high level character is needed to farm them.

I think we can all agree though, some of the main things that make those types of games great are:

1.  Player driven economy and most items in game craftable.  Crafting based on skill, no pre-set quality levels which leaves little control and makes all items uniform, thereby defeating the purpose.  Also, varying level of resources is important to further diferentiate.  This will provide a system that rewards those people who are very focused and determined to be the best crafters they can be - a skill reward system.  Applicants who are not serious need not apply.  Of course, this goes in the face of the typical WoW user who whines if anything is obtainable by another person that can't be easily obtained by the whiner.  A poison that, unfortunately, has pervaded just about every MMO and is probably the main contributing reason to why we don't see these types of games anymore.  If you heard your kids whining every day about a certain condition you would eventually fix the condition not to hear the whining any longer.

2. Ability to visit any content in game at any level.  This is important to give a feeling of exploration and wonderment.  I still remember the first time I set foot on a dangerous planent in SWG to put down some resource extractors and seeing the dangerous creatures that I knew could, and would, kill me in one swipe.  That was excitement.  Of course, because of the whiners in #1 above, you don't see that type of engagment anymore.  Everyone wants there game spoonfed and they dont' want to have to actually learn something.  I call it console syndrome.  Console games are very spoon fed and fast action.  Everything happens instantly - you turn on the console, fire up xyz game and are usually in action inside of 1 minute.  A whole new group of gamers has entered the fold that expects that type of interaction.

3. Non-linear skill or game advancement.  This is particularly important to increase the immersity of the game.  How many people had a roadmap laid out for their career when they started?  Unless you are a doctor, and probably not even then, I seriously doubt it.  You become what you become based on your experience and choices you make during your formative years, and somewhat based on genetics or predisposition.  The only game that has that now, that I know of, is Eve.  I think AO is still going and it may still have that style of gameplay, I haven't played in years so I'm not sure of the "Wowified" or not.  Unfortunately, the early MMOs were based on a whole genre of games called MUDS, which were text base equavelent of todays graphical beasts (MUDS are still around for anyone interested in how it all began).  These early games were based on DnD rules, which provides a very linear advancement system for classes.  Some games tried to buck this system, SWG, AO, and Eve all come to mind, but most have still followed the "tried and true" design of linear advancement.  They have tried to spruce it up a bit in modern times though with "knowledge trees" or "feat trees".  Where a user could spend points accumulated through adventuring and leveling on fine tuning the skills she already has.  In some cases a user can even learn new skills through the process, but that occurence is usually very limited.  Non-linear advancement however, provides no penalty to redoing ones career - short of the fact that you have to work that much harder to build a new tree.  I guess the main point of non-linear advancement is that you make your own tree rather than have some designer spoon feed it too you.  This is also more challenging to the designers to create balance (read: more fun, but costs more money, what do you think wins?), but in the long run provides a much richer, immersive experience to the user by providing a pallete of skills from which she can paint infinite combinations, erasing and repainting at will.

Whew - if anyone read all that congratulations .  I hope that clarifies some confusion we are all having.  If anyone feels like adding or clarifying any points that I missed please feel free.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

VERY IMPORTANT:

Synthesis:

1. First I was attacked by saying Wow was indeed to me a sandbox, by saying crafting was not even an option and that even IF there were crafted Mat in Wow they couldn't possibly be compared with the higher raids.

Can i call my car a bicycle? Because, well...it has pedals too, it is a bicycle to me.

I answered by showing him the newest craftting of blacksmithing weapons specs - which ARE on par with what you find in the later raids.

2. Then somene attacked the "moron" that you coudn't change the world like making zeppelins or saddles etc.

I answered by showing him I crafted helicopters. or could even launch missiles with my paladin.

So...having a crafting profession that allows ONLY the characters that have chosen it is exactly the same as everybody in the game being able to do everything with only one char each?

3. Then they said wrong: it is NOT your character that counts: it is a changing world.

I answered that in the newest content the Sunwell island had to be conquered by the WHOLE server population in doing quests, bombardments, crafting professions and gathering materiels to change the world settings.

As some other posters already pointed ( and you masterfully ignored ), could you avoid the opening of the island? NO, it's just a matter of time it gets opened. Can you undo it now? NO, Blizzard designed the event for the isle to be opened, and it'll stay that way unless they change their mind. That's not sandbox.

4. Then it was the leveling for some  that bothered them. "You just have to follow quest paths."

While i was ONLY speaking of END game content at level 70 !

Sandbox has no end-game. Period.

Now I am going to do the questioning here:

WHICH of your so called famous open ended MMORPG's had an e-sport status in its end game ?

What does that have to do with your claim of WoW being sandbox?

WHICH of your so called famous open ended MMORPG's had an analysis equal to non of the PVP AND PVE mechanics and systems ?

What does that have to do with your claim of WoW being sandbox?

Just reread my original post and see why I think "sandboxes" are just nostalgic  fond memories of underdevelopped old hat gaming systems.

What does that have to do with your claim of WoW being sandbox?

Sandbox concept exists and will exist. Some games will adapt more or less features from it, but the concept of sandbox is and will be the same.

WoW, in the other hand, has at its core a linear design. As we said a million times, that does not make it better or worse than sandbox, just makes it non-sandbox.

As long as a game has static stationary NPCs with big  ! and   ?   over their heads that game is not a sandbox.

Zorndorf, applaud your willingness and courage to fight the good fight. You are the only one in this thread to stand up and fight for your ideals and beliefs. You are a true warrior Zorndorf, you have a brave soul. To be able to take the punishment night in and night out and still come out of it alive and well is simply amazing. I mean you are practically being railroaded up the rear by several other poster's who simply hate your guts because you don't share their beliefs. You don't think the way they want you to think and that makes them angry. It frustrates them to no end so they continue to pound and pound and pound until they cannot pound anymore. Hoping upon hope your arse will be so worn out and so bruised you will have no choice but to concede victory to the majority party and leave this thread for good.

But you choose to stay, you choose to take the pounding and the abuse regardless of the circumstances. Regardless of the odds. Zorndorf, it is obivious here that the people who are railroading you are envious of your party's success. Superior games such as WoW, AOC and City of heroes have pushed their inferior niche games to the side and are simply washing them away. Keep doing what you are doing Zorndorf, keep fighting the good fight. You are not alone my friend. The Captain will always be on your side. The fanboi will always be your right hand man. Now let's make some magic huh, what do ya say pal???

Captain Fanboi 

Originally posted by Zorndorf

1. First I was attacked by saying Wow was indeed to me a sandbox, by saying crafting was not even an option and that even IF there were crafted Mat in Wow they couldn't possibly be compared with the higher raids.

I answered by showing him the newest craftting of blacksmithing weapons specs - which ARE on par with what you find in the later raids.

No, they ARE NOT on par with the latest raids, as a matter of fact there is an outcry from the Blacksmithing community for Blizzard to come up with some new patterns because the existing ones cant compete with the new sunwell drops, and has been for quite some time now.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28442 (Best craftable 2hander in the game)

VS

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34247 (Sunwell raid dropped 2hander)

or

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30902 (MH raid dropped 2hander)

or

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32348 (BT raid dropped 2hander)

or even pvp gear

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33688 (S3 PvP 2hander, which any monkey can aquire)

All of them eat Skillherald for breakfast, same goes for ANY of the other crafted weapons, EVERY SINGLE ONE of them has at LEAST one superior raid drop. It would have been more accurate to call them on par with Kara gear, which (lets face it) is just welfare gear anyway.

Saying they are on par is a complete fabrication, not sure why you would even try to convince someone that this was correct, as its common knowledge that current BS epics are nowhere near as good as they once were, and there has been a demand for new patterns that actually DO fall in line with current content for quite some time.

So why try to convince some otherwise? even though I only addressed this one area of your statement, thats because I find it odd you would attempt to sway someone into believing the above as truth, when it is so easily proven to be false.

Originally posted by MiMoSeTH

Well, in your fast food example, i would probably agree with the customer. Wrong analogy.

Zorndorf said, after getting his hamburguer from the fast food restaurant, 'This kind of service is better than that of a free buffet restaurant. You can only get hamburguers at those free buffet restaurants anyway, and they are something from the past'

Now, please, stop asking me to give my idea of a sandbox mmorpg. My initial statement had nothing to do with what my opinion is of a sandbox mmorpg, i was just pointing out why WoW isn't one of those. If he ever wonders why almost everyone disagrees with his statement, there are plenty of places to educate himself on the subject.

Some posters BEFORE me pointed out several features that illustrate differences between sandbox and linear, and he bent some of them, then ignored others, to accomodate his initial statement. No way in hell you're gonna make me feel wrong by pointing out the obvious: that his 'opinion'  was presented as a fact, and as a fact it was wrong. Period.

 

So you agree with the customer - because you agree that no matter what his opinion was (about the food and the choices that were offered him), it doesn't excuse someone else from screaming obsenities, jumping on the counter, and acting like an idiot?  Surprising! 

I thought you'd disagree with the customer because the fast food restaurant, while letting you make *some* choices (hold the beef, extra lettuce, etc.) doesn't let you use their equipment and ingredients in *any possible* way you please (I need to borrow your deep fat fryer for a second, I'm going to make a deep fried salad burger!).

I was pointing out again that it seems (to me) to be a matter of degree in terms of freedom / choice - a silly matter to get hung up on, and not really a reason to call someone retarded, etc.

I think it would be perfectly clear *if* you were to try to define what *is* a sandbox mmorpg that you would be stating an opinion - one that is not universally accepted.  You can look through the thread and see how shallow the consensus is about what makes a sandbox mmorpg (note: I'm not saying the opinions are shallow, I'm saying that there is not a clear consensus, let alone a universal definition).  If that is true, and if it is true that "sandboxiness" is a matter of degree, then how can someone say (factually) that any game (e.g, WOW) has *no* sandbox elements in it (especially if the consensus definition includes something as nebulous as "freedom of choice").

I've seen some ambiguous terms used to describe "sandbox" games, such as the word "linear" as a counterweight.  I've seen it used to describe linear level design (game levels or areas of increasing difficulty vs. an open world), linear character advancement (classes vs. skills), etc. - and I'm of the opinion that you could have a "sandboxy" game with linear and non-linear elements (linear level design but non-linear advancement and an open approach on how to "solve" problems during the game, a combination of linear and non-linear level design (many, many side quests), non-linear level design but linear advancement (open world with standard classes / levels), or a linear level design with a combination of linear and non-linear advancement (hybrid class / skill advancement).  Definately not clear as crystal, and not something worth having a tantrum at a restaurant about because I got a Granny Smith apple instead of a Red Delicious.

It's okay if you don't feel wrong about what you did ... but you also stated opinion as "fact" (WOW is not a sandbox mmorpg) even if you feel that it is a widely held opinion (and one which I share with the caveat that I feel that it is a matter of *degree*) ... it's just that you also lowered yourself to childish name calling in the process.  At this point it seems your defense is to try to justify your bad behavior.

The easiest way to define the differances of a sandbox mmo to one that is not, is to read and educate oneself on the subject. If you want to know what a sandbox mmo is all about, go the homepages of the new crop of mmorpg's coming out like, Darkfall, Earthrise, Crusades, and Fallen Earth.

There you can see and read the differances of how the gameplay mechanics and whole structure of the game is an exact opposite of titles such as WOW, AOC, COH, LOTR, SWG NGE and all the other class/lvl based mmo's on the market.

No need to sit and bicker back and forth on the subject.

I think it's really sad that you sandbox people think people who play WoW are dummies. If WoW is for dumb players why is it so popular. Why are we supposedly dumb players apart of the most popular game in the WORLD!!! WoW is the number one game in the world. Now you tell me who's the dummy.

Captain Fanboi

(I'm awesome)

Originally posted by Capt.Fanboi

I think it's really sad that you sandbox people think people who play WoW are dummies. If WoW is for dumb players why is it so popular. Why are we supposedly dumb players apart of the most popular game in the WORLD!!! WoW is the number one game in the world. Now you tell me who's the dummy.

Captain Fanboi

(I'm awesome)

People are smart because they are smarter then the average Joe.

People are dummies, because they are more dummier then others. So WoW is for the average Joe. Nothing wrong with it.

What happend to Sandbox MMO's? Well its called EvE online, and people find it to hard because it is sandbox right from the start. No hand helding. Thats where stuff went wrong. The game is fun from the beginning, as long as you don't try to understand everything.

WoW is as sandbox as Doom 3

WoW does not meet the criteria to classify it into a sandbox design. That's a fact, not my opinion.

I acted childlish, that's also a fact. The reasons behind my behavior could make it more or less justifiable, but that's a matter of opinion, but it has nothing to do with the point, unless you use the behavior to totally ignore it.

In your analogy, the customer stated something that just happened, that's why i would agree with him. Zorndorf is stating something that doesn't happen.

About what makes a game sandbox, well, you have plenty of features stated all over the thread. Player driven economy, skill based character development, dynamic world changes, and there are more. Just because no one posted a full comprehensive and detailed list of core features doesn't mean all posters have different views of what a whole sandbox concept is. Some pointed one of them, some a few, and many just pointing out the differences between the statements of Zorndorf and the sandbox counterpart, you have an example in my previous post.

While you keep attacking how i tried to make my point, you still fail at aknowledging the point: That i got angry at someone eating a Granny Smith saying that his orange is the same as my Navel, and that i'm delusional if i think he's eating an apple.

Now go ahead, keep ignoring the point completely and make jokes about fruits. That sure is constructive.