Originally posted by highblur

UO..

I was a simple lumberjack and carpenter, making whatever fetched me a good price.  After quite sometime I had gathered enough money to purchase a boat where I would fish out in the sea and dock in town to sell some fresh sushi I had made.  It was amazing just fishing and making food for people.  Of course I was 13 or so, but I felt like I was contributing and there were no restrictions to what I could do.  No parents to observe and criticize my experiments in social situations and life lessions.  Truely free.

 

Funny thing is, today I make Sushi O_o

I'm starting to think this whole "sandbox" thing is just a way for people to log in and talk with other people while they do busy work.

This is probably why games such as  WoW are so popular. When I've described the gameplay of online games where people  grind away or toil at online vocations to the people I know, they cringe at such a waste of time.

This is why I think you will not see a sandbox game for quite a while. The average person wants to do something. They want to adventure. Quests are part of that. However, I am in agreement that a game should not force you to do quests.

I also have to disagree with Torak's assertiion that you have to do quests in LOTRO. There are very few quests you "have to do". Quite frankly the only one that I can think of that you have to do is one of the class quests and the quest that gets you by the guardian statues in Angmar.

Other than that, I'm 50 and don't do quests as I've just been exploring and having fun. True there are the book quests which I do want to do but haven't felt too compelled to get them done as there are other things I want to do in game.

Sandbox is where you create your own content and really I wouldn't call them sandbox games, that's more of like a Garrys mod or LBP thing.

See the differences are all in the level system vs the skillbased system which with a skill based system you have freedom to pick and choose what you want and the world isn't a linear level based progression. Where as a skillbased like what SWG was is where you can go anywhere and it's a big open free world.

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

Originally posted by highblur

UO..

I was a simple lumberjack and carpenter, making whatever fetched me a good price.  After quite sometime I had gathered enough money to purchase a boat where I would fish out in the sea and dock in town to sell some fresh sushi I had made.  It was amazing just fishing and making food for people.  Of course I was 13 or so, but I felt like I was contributing and there were no restrictions to what I could do.  No parents to observe and criticize my experiments in social situations and life lessions.  Truely free.

 

Funny thing is, today I make Sushi O_o

I've heard about this type of gameplay in some of the earlier games. AS some friends and I have discussed, it sounds like a job. I already have a job. Why would anyone want another job. One where you pay to have it! But apparently people want this!

 

I'm starting to think this whole "sandbox" thing is just a way for people to log in and talk with other people while they do busy work.

This is probably why games such as  WoW are so popular. When I've described the gameplay of online games where people  grind away or toil at online vocations to the people I know, they cringe at such a waste of time.

This is why I think you will not see a sandbox game for quite a while. The average person wants to do something. They want to adventure. Quests are part of that. However, I am in agreement that a game should not force you to do quests.

I also have to disagree with Torak's assertiion that you have to do quests in LOTRO. There are very few quests you "have to do". Quite frankly the only one that I can think of that you have to do is one of the class quests and the quest that gets you by the guardian statues in Angmar.

Other than that, I'm 50 and don't do quests as I've just been exploring and having fun. True there are the book quests which I do want to do but haven't felt too compelled to get them done as there are other things I want to do in game.

It all depends on what you like because for me playing a mmorpg should all be about the community talking to eachother and grouping with strangers and getting to know them. You don't get this in the WOW's of today because everyone wants it now and want to solo because it's faster. I remember in SWG you'd have to wait for other people to kill a certain mob first and because the community was so great and mature we'd all chat and take our turns and it's them times when you have fun.

I used to love waiting at the starport for 10 mins because you'd get dueling with people and I loved the death pen because you had to go search for entertainers and doctors to heal your wounds, it was all very social.

Also the great thing about it is your character feels unique from everyone elses because you get to pick and chose your skills and decided to go down different paths all the time. You wern't just locked into one class and were the same as everyother class out there, you were your own and it felt special.

I loved how you'd go into your player cities and buy off other peoples own shops instead of now buying off a AH everyone uses, I loved having to search for the best items and made it more of a challenge. I loved how you could go into your own player house in real time and invite people in without a loading screen.

They wont ever make a SWG game again and it's sad because around November 2003 before all the Jedi and JTLS expansion it was the best mmorpg ever made with great potential.

Originally posted by JustBe

Sandbox is where you create your own content and really I wouldn't call them sandbox games, that's more of like a Garrys mod or LBP thing.

See the differences are all in the level system vs the skillbased system which with a skill based system you have freedom to pick and choose what you want and the world isn't a linear level based progression. Where as a skillbased like what SWG was is where you can go anywhere and it's a big open free world.

 

 

actually I have a problem buying that.

Let's say you have a class based system. But the world is open, you don't have to do quests to lvl up, there are vocations that aren't tied to fighting, one can do small things like farming, starting campfires, exploring.

I would call that a sandbox game. One that had classes. Throw in a way that one could alter your classes a bit, a bit of customization and that is nicer. Still, is a game where you can do what you want when you want.

I think players are trying to tie in class structure/skill structure to the open world idea and confusing the two.

To further the point, now take a world where there are only quests and the only way to level up is to do the one quest line. Make it so that vocations are tired strictly to a players's lvl. However, add to it that there is no one class, there are skills and lvls and complete character customization. But the world has walls and paths.

The player's ability to customize his/her avatar has not made the world more sandbox in my opinion.

katriell - Every time you post some thing about Ryzom, I have to kick myself in the shin for missing out.  It's difficult and painful at the same time...but don't let me stop you

highblur - Nice story.  I think that's a great example of why the "sandbox" style of MMO is so different whats out there now.  Personally, I can't wait until we see a new MMO with a skill system as massive and diverse as what UO had.

And honestly, I don't see how people always claim that sandbox MMOs are too much of a "job".  Really?  Maybe if you have to catch X number of fish per day to get your uber-leet-fishing-rod-of-awsomeness.  But, what highblur described (and what many people describe) don't sound like jobs to me.  They sound like some one logging on and doing what ever they feel like.

You know what sounds like a real job to me?  WoW endgame.  I have a friend who raided 3 or 4 times a week for 4+ hours at a time.  He literally had to schedule his life around this.  Thats a job...

I'd like to reiterate what the fellow above me just said.

WoW end-game is a job.   Selling fish for people in UO while exploring the sea on boat is not a job.  You don't HAVE to sell the fish to have fun.   You (IMO) HAVE to do WoW endgame to get the most out of the game.

Most times you really do have to change your real life schedule to be able to participate in WoW end-game. You don't have to change anything in RL to be able to sell fish to people in a Sandbox MMO

I posted this in another thread, I thought it would fit here to explain what people look for when they say they want a "sandbox" game.

OP would have loved original SWG, there were no levels, no classes you were locked in to, you could mix and match professions however you wanted. You could have been a weaponsmith with a little rifleman on the side or a Bounty Hunter who also danced in a cantina. It was truly groundbreaking.

And because there were no set levels, new characters could do a lot of the same stuff that the oldest could do.

I spent most of my time as a Jedi-Hunting Bounty Hunter (yes you could hunt other players for money, it was in the game...incredible). I also spent some time killing a particular type of NPC for weapon powerups that I would sell to weaponsmiths, and also hunting creatures for meat to sell to doctors. I was also a member of a guild and participated in our player cities' government, and there was always the Bestine - AH faction pvp. These were all inter-player relationships, and they were better than the best WoW dungeon.

And SWG was a AAA game backed by a major company, not one of those half baked F2P games that, while they may have good ideas, don't have the funding or talent to make them appeal to a large audience on a long term scale.

Wasn't Vanguard a sandbox game?

Originally posted by WizGamer

Wasn't Vanguard a sandbox game?

No.  Check out Fallen Earth on these forums.  It is a Sandbox in development right now and it is far along.

Originally posted by Avos

 

Originally posted by WizGamer

Wasn't Vanguard a sandbox game?

 

No.  Check out Fallen Earth on these forums.  It is a Sandbox in development right now and it is far along.

Meh, FPS. It's almost perfect, but just not there. 

Fallen Earth looks lame.

Earthrise is where it's at.

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

I also have to disagree with Torak's assertiion that you have to do quests in LOTRO. There are very few quests you "have to do". Quite frankly the only one that I can think of that you have to do is one of the class quests and the quest that gets you by the guardian statues in Angmar.

 

Its also combat centric as alternate activities like crafting are tied to combat levels and not independent.

ok, this is going on nicely. but still i need feedback on some games, and whether they can be called sandbox or not. this games are:

- Horizons: i am inclined to believe that it is not really a sandbox, altough the crafting is excelent

- Linage 2: seems that altough it is PVP focused with sieges and all that, it isnt really a sandbox games. opinions welcome

- Neocron: i have no experience on this game at all, and opinions have been contradictory so far

- Asheron Call: same as above. more opinions needed

- Fallen Earth

- Earthrise

and i would like to thank all those that took the time to share some memories with us. those that started with WoW and linear games are all they know are missing all those great things

Istaria (Horizons) does not have excellent crafting. It has...decent crafting. It is, however, a sandbox:

- It has quests, but you aren't forced to do them. The half-exceptions to this are these:
--- The tutorial quests are pushy, but can be deleted (if I remember correctly; if not, they can just be ignored) and left alone.
--- As a dragon you need to do quests to ascend to adulthood and later ancienthood, but you have the option to not do it and therefore not ascend.
--- As a biped Confectioner there are "Rare" food formulae obtained via quests, but you don't need to have them.

- Almost unfettered multiclassing system. You can have all the adventuring and crafting classes maxed on one character. You can only have one active at a time, but some spells and abilities are usable by multiple classes.

- Non-instanced building. You can build whatever you want in your biped plot or dragon lair, limited of course by the size of the plot/lair you own and the selection of implemented structures. There are also ruins in the world that can be rebuilt by players.

- Relatively valuable crafting, with some flexibility in what the statistics of a crafted item will be (Techniques).

- Invasions, lore-based holidays, and other story-oriented live events. In the past, two playable races were unlocked via events.

- An overall feeling of freedom.

its amazing how many sandbox fanbois overlook runescape, currently one of the biggest mmo's, which is about a sandy as a sandbox can be.

there where many players who did not ever kill a monster, combat and quests was just part of the game some chose to ignore.

Originally posted by lkavadas

Fallen Earth looks lame.

Earthrise is where it's at.

yeah because earthrise must be a good game if its got alot of developer promises and a couple of screenshots. its what makes darkfall better than any other mmo too.

The simple thruth is that, people are getting tired of the same old class/lvl based mmo. This is why you see mmo's such as Fallen Earth, Earthrise, APB, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Crusades Online and global Agenda coming out in the near future and some little more down the road.

All these games are structured in the same vain as UO, SWG and Eve. No lvl's and all skill based with your toon and your actions having a impact on the game world in some way. They all will have a very deep crafting system were anything that is player made will be what's best in the game, not some stupid dungeon loot drop.

Communities will be built on interdependencies and have true economies. Worlds and universe's will be huge and open, unlike the linear path style mmo's that litter the genre right now.

Sandbox games are meant for a player to create a toon that he or she can build and mold to their liking with infinite possibilities, in which a true feeling of attachment can be felt. Class/lvl based mmo's give the player the mechanism to have multiple toons that fit neatly into a certain class that once you reach the highest lvl, stops being and is just shelved and replaced with the next up at bat. No real attachment and growth at all.

Like the cars of the future will not be gas powered, i see the same for mmo's. The time of the clunky, linear spoonfed content mmo's is about to come to an end. People want more freedom and options. They want exploration and a sense of having a impact in the virtual game world.

Originally posted by Zorvan

Originally posted by apertotes

ok, i have doubts about whether the next games could be defined as sandbox or not: Asheron's Call = psuedo sandbox, contains level system

Roma Victor = litter box

Lineage 2 = grinder, not sandbox as you have no real choice in builds or activities

,Dark and Light = worse than a litter box, even a mangy half-blind cat wouldn't piss in this one

 Pirates of the BS = level and equipment based with quests, nowhere near sandbox

Vanguard = level and equipment based with quests, nowhere near sandbox

Seed = had promise, met an unfortunate end so we'll never really know

Neocron 2 = level and equipment based with quests, nowhere near sandbox

 

In conclusion, the ability to roleplay or a large empty world does NOT a sandbox make.

 

 

IMO, a sandbox game means a game where the players can have an impact on the world.

It is irrelevant whether your character increases in power through levels or skills. Both accomplish the same thing, an increase in power.

Therefore, I don't know why you listed these games and included the fact that they have levels.

For example, you could tear down a bridge that provides a shortcut to an area, or upens up a zone, or you can build a bridge. This would change the gameworld.

Whether you are level 5, or have sword swinging skill level 5, would make no difference.

Anyone calling Second Life a true sandbox has lost a few too many screws upstairs.   It is far more appropriate to call it a chat room on steroids than anything else.

I would include AC1 as very close to a sandbox MMO, but fails on the point it did have levels, even if they were pretty meaningless. 

The number one distinquishing thing that  a sandbox has is that your character is not boxed into specific classes and levels but learns skills instead.

Hence shadowbane with it's distinct class structures fails to meet the sandbox definition.

Originally posted by musicmann

... Like the cars of the future will not be gas powered, i see the same for mmo's. The time of the clunky, linear spoonfed content mmo's is about to come to an end. People want more freedom and options. They want exploration and a sense of having a impact in the virtual game world.

 

i wish that were true...