Everquest

Originally posted by Liss

I dont know why people think they should be able to solo an MMO. Whats the fekkin point?  MMO's are about playing through content with OTHER PEOPLE and working together toward some type of common goal. Not about being able to walk through the entire game alone.

The best MMO's offer enough content for both playstyles.

Take Lord of the Rings Online, for example. There are tons of quests in the game, and while many of them can be done solo, or with a small group of friends, there are times where a full group is required in order to get anything accomplished. Dungeons like the Great Barrow and Garth Agarwen simply can't be soloed. It's impossible. In order to play through them and finish their quest lines, you need a full group of people working together. Period.

Even certain quests outside of dungeons (Retake Weathertop comes to mind here)  will require a full group, either because of the sheer amount of mobs you'll encounter, or the fact that you will face very powerful mobs at the end that require that full group to fight well together in order to finish the quest.

But the game offers options. People can work at their own pace either solo  or with friends on the smaller quests, then get into full groups for the more involved quest lines. That's ideal. And in a game like LOTR Online, it's part of the game's culture. Players are often looking for groups for the larger quests and for dungeon crawls, with pickup groups being formed constantly.

Yes, MMO's involve lots of other players, but forcing your players to group 100% of the time in order to get anything accomplished isn't a wise game model anymore. It's much smarter to give people choices. Give them content that they can work at on their own or with one or two friends, and give them content with better gear that they can only get with a full group, then let them make their own decisions accordingly. But you can't force the issue of grouping. That doesn't work anymore.

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Liss

I dont know why people think they should be able to solo an MMO. Whats the fekkin point?  MMO's are about playing through content with OTHER PEOPLE and working together toward some type of common goal. Not about being able to walk through the entire game alone.

 

The best MMO's offer enough content for both playstyles.

Take Lord of the Rings Online, for example. There are tons of quests in the game, and while many of them can be done solo, or with a small group of friends, there are times where a full group is required in order to get anything accomplished. Dungeons like the Great Barrow and Garth Agarwen simply can't be soloed. It's impossible. In order to play through them and finish their quest lines, you need a full group of people working together. Period.

Even certain quests outside of dungeons (Retake Weathertop comes to mind here)  will require a full group, either because of the sheer amount of mobs you'll encounter, or the fact that you will face very powerful mobs at the end that require that full group to fight well together in order to finish the quest.

But the game offers options. People can work at their own pace either solo  or with friends on the smaller quests, then get into full groups for the more involved quest lines. That's ideal. And in a game like LOTR Online, it's part of the game's culture. Players are often looking for groups for the larger quests and for dungeon crawls, with pickup groups being formed constantly.

Yes, MMO's involve lots of other players, but forcing your players to group 100% of the time in order to get anything accomplished isn't a wise game model anymore. It's much smarter to give people choices. Give them content that they can work at on their own or with one or two friends, and give them content with better gear that they can only get with a full group, then let them make their own decisions accordingly. But you can't force the issue of grouping. That doesn't work anymore.

I agree. Its good to give people choices and it sounds like LOTRO is doing well at that. The problem i have is a game that can be soloed practically the whole way through. I dont promote the forcing of grouping but  i do like the idea of encouraging it. I dont think it should be an easy option (or option at all for that matter) to solo an entire MMO.

The problem with FORCING people to group is the time involved.   Consider the countless times you would spend an hour or more getting a group together only to have your healer tell you, sorry my mom is forcing me to go to dinner. 

Then you end up waiting around hours more for another healer or you log out in disgust.   Guildwars addressed this nicely by allowing you to gain NPC group members.   They were not as good as a player group member, exception being an NPC healer who was frequently better than a player healer.    Then you could proceed on doing group content with NPCs filling group slots as needed.

LOTRO also addresses this nicely, but giving you sufficient quests to either group or solo your may through the game.     Some of the group quests would give better rewards than the solo quests, but  you always have the option to solo and then tackle the group quests when you're able to find a group.

EQ has always required a group.   People in EQ will tell you that you can solo it.   Well you can also swim from America to Europe, doesn't mean its enjoyable or sane.   

Not worth playing or remaking, it was bad from the beginning.

Originally posted by tfox2k1

Oh ye of little knowledge.   I was in EQ at the start.   The problem with developers requiring your to group is first creating an environment that requires grouping.   EQ did this by overpowering the mobs and under powering the PCs. 

I also played from the beginning. Mobs in EQ were not overpowered, an even con mob was an even fight, you might win, you might not. A yellow or red con was probably going to hand you your butt. How is that overpowering the mob. I guess if you base this on the WoW method where you can solo an Elite mob a couple levels higher then you and win (Which i did with my Hunter so dont say you cant) then i guess it would be overpowered.

Next you need classes that support each other, which means each individual class are missing several critical skils.   EQ also did this extremely well.

By missing skills you mean everyone could not do everything well. Ya you are right there. EQ was based alot on D&D classes, it was like that in D&D also.

Lastly you need to ensure you have no content that allows your players to solo, otherwise many will.   EQ would actually implement game changing tricks such as mobs summoning everyone or anti-kiting tactics to prevent solo play.  

 Hmm, then how did my Druid solo probably 85%+ of the way up to level 50 if there was no solo content? Druids could solo very well, Necros could solo very well, Mages could solo very well, and later Bards and Shaman could solo very well. True some could not solo well but it isnt like EQ lied to you. If you read up on the classes from day one it told you which were good for solo and which for grouping. EQ never lied about being a group orientated game, but it did allow viable soloing if you were willing to play one of the classes that were good at it.

In the end your left with a system that cheats, discourages innovative play styles, forces people to join with others to have a chance.   In addition you have certain classes that are vastly more welcome than others.   I started EQ as a necromancer.    Mainly because I played a similar class in a MUD and enjoyed role playing evil.    At the start of EQ a necro had a LOT of negatives with the promise of being powerful later.

The EQ devs sure gave the class lots of negatives, but removed any benefits later.   In addition since I wasn't one of the holy trinity, my grouping was typically limited.   So because I wasn't a tank, healer, or crowd control class I was basically unwanted.   Even though I put in just the same or more hours than other classes. 

Again Necro was stated to be a solo typle class from the start. But Necros were also very good in groups. If stupid people would not let you in their groups because they didnt want a Necro then you probably didnt want to group with them anyway. My guild and my friends certainly had no problem with it. Necros provided alot in solo or grouping.

 That is the problem with requiring grouping, you're always going to get classes that are not wanted or hardly wanted.    Guild Wars did grouping right in many ways.   Offer NPCs to fill roles that are required such as a healer.    Considering watching paint dry was more exciting than healing in EQ, SOE should have done the same.

The holy trinity was invented by the player base, not EQ. At no time did you absolutely need 1 Cleric, 1 Warrior, 1 Enchanger and then fill in the blanks. People invented that and other people ran with it, but not everyone ran with it. While i didnt group much with my Druid i was invited to group often even though i was not one of the holy ones. I invited plenty of times to be the main Healer though i rarely did it due to hating that roll. You could certainly make a very functional group without any members of the trinity and i saw it done often, and was a part of many with my SK. And while you think playing a healer is like watching paint dry (and i kind of agree) i knew many people that only liked playing Clerics. I never got it but if they liked it then good for them.

 Rose tinted glasses make EQ appear far more positive than the actual game experience was or is.   If a game was released today with the best graphics of any MMO, but the game play of EQ, it would be an utter disaster.   Witness Vanguard for a close comparison of my analogy.

Yes, you are right. Vanguard was a disaster because of the gameplay. It had nothing to do with the fact that the game was nearly unplayable on most systems that people owned. No, you are probably right, it was the gameplay.
No, it was not the GAMEPLAY, it was the way the GAME PLAYED.

You are not a fan of EQ, sweet. You dont think that a game like EQ could make it in the MMO world today, sweet. I dont care about the first one and you are wrong about the second one.

 

Originally posted by Heltern

Not worth playing or remaking, it was bad from the beginning.

Yes, because the new format of speed quest grinding is SOOOOO Much more fun the regular old exp grinding.

The difference in grind between EQ and the new games is that in EQ i went out and killed 100 Orcs, in the new games some NPC tells me to go out and kill 100 Orcs.
And i also get a ton more exp killing those Orcs in the new games so i can get to max level in less then a month and figure out that there is nothing to do when i get there.

safwd,

I smiled the entire time i was reading your posts. Thank you for such an enjoyable read. You keep my beliefs alive that there are actually other people out there that can appreciate an MMO that requires grouping to succeed and flourish. Thank you.

Originally posted by Liss

safwd,

I smiled the entire time i was reading your posts. Thank you for such an enjoyable read. You keep my beliefs alive that there are actually other people out there that can appreciate an MMO that requires grouping to succeed and flourish. Thank you.

You are not alone my friend. There are plenty of us out there that want a EQ style game again.

Im not too sure we will ever get what we want but there is a player base for that type of game.

We can hope.